The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Nathan]

Obedience is necessary as an evidence of one's salvation, but not the cause of it. The only obedience that is the condition and cause of ones being made righteous is Christ alone, the obedience of ONE..rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Right. We could never be made righteous in our own stance. We must be IN Christ to receive His righteousness. However, once in Christ obedience must take place, but there is a choice given;

Rom 6:11-18 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

If this was a 'natural' outcome of being one of the ones of "exception", then these would not be commands as given so. It would not be an option. Obedience takes an act of the will to perform. Otherwise it is not obedience. Obedience LEADS to righteousness. It does not create it, but leads to it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

nathan:

Right. We could never be made righteous in our own stance. We must be IN Christ to receive His righteousness. However, once in Christ obedience must take place, but there is a choice given;

False Teaching here. Those Christ died for [His obedience] shall be made righteous [obedient] by His obedience.. rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Nathan]

nathan:



False Teaching here. Those Christ died for [His obedience] shall be made righteous [obedient] by His obedience.. rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This is not a game. This is real. This forum is not just a place to chat it up. People come here for solid truth. Twisting and turning ones words should not happen. People will be held accountable for what they say on here.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Only a Remnant !

Only a Remnant shall be saved ! -



Romans 9:


27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

The word remnant is the greek word hypoleimma and means remains

That means it is equivalent to a few, or a small part..it's made up of the root word kataleipo meaning:


to leave behind

a) to depart from, leave

1) to be left

b) to bid (one) to remain

c) to forsake, leave to one's self a person or thing by ceasing to care for it, to abandon, leave in the lurch

1) to be abandoned, forsaken

d) to cause to be left over, to reserve, to leave remaining


It has never been God's purpose, desire, or will to save all mankind without a exception, even as it was not with Israel, but only a portion.


Jesus reaffirms this idea in His words Matt 7:

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus could say this and mean it, for He is the life and the way to life, and He is the one who must find us for that Life..

lk 15:

4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

Jn 10:

10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they [His Sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

He came to save the remnant of mankind that were of His Sheep, whether of the jews or gentiles.

The remnant are those He particularly reserves for Himself as Illustrated in rom 11:

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Notice, He says a remnant that I have reserved for myself, that is God is quite active in this reserving for Himself. The word for reserve is the same word earlier that was the root word for remnant..

God reserves for Himself a remnant of mankind from Idolatry, or baal worship and worship of the beast in the last days rev 13:


8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The remnant that does not worship the beast are those whose names were written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, corresponding to the reserved in Israel of old who were kept back from baal worship, who were of the election of grace..

This was due to the Lamb slain from the foundation, the cross work of Jesus Christ, for this goes to prove the scope and intention of His death and its effects amongst mankind.

Why would Christ die for any who were not written in His book of life before the foundation ?

Why would God save by Grace, whom He did not chooses in the election of Grace ? Those He did not choose are called the rest rom 11:

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The rest are also a remnant ! So God purposed that there would be a remnant of mankind that are to be blinded..

Its in the passive voice, were hardened, by the purpose and power of God, were hardened !

Those outside of the election of grace, not written in the lambs book of life, Christ did not die for, hence its only a myth that Christ died for all men without exception, for He died only for that remnant that shall be saved..

 

[savedbygrace57]

It effects a New Life unto God !



The religious world does not have the slightest idea of what the bible teaches about the death of Christ for sinners that where dead in sin. The concept is that Christ redeeming death only makes the remedy of sin a possibility of which the dead sinner must put their finishing touches on it in order that it is made a saving experience. If man does not believe, or if man does not repent or be baptized ect, then Christ death will not save you..

But the death of Christ alone actually saves a sinner, and since its obvious that all sinners are not saved by it, then it was not for all sinners, but a chosen few.

Christ death is so efficacious that it effects or begets a new life unto God, for those He died for:

2 cor 5:


14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


This is because, He being their head, and they his body, His death unto sin was their death unto sin [see rom 6:10]

And as His death destroyed the power of death heb 2:14 and sin, this also ends their spiritual death and power to sin, ending their old life of alienation from God, and redeeming them unto a people zealous of Good Works Titus 2:14

who gave himself for us[His death], that[purpose] he might redeem us from all iniquity[Unbelief included], and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

You see His death both redeems and purifies those He died for, that was the purpose of His death, not to die and wait and see who would accept it.

But it [His death] actually effects a new life unto Himself and unto God the Father..

Now does this occur for those who shall yet hear these words matt 7:


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Then Christ death was not for them, because as seen in titus 2 14 His death redeems from all iniquity..

 

[warhorse]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the children of the devil Jn 8:44 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

umm you might be familiar with John 3v16


john 3v14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

2 PETER 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to REPENTANCE.

John 17
18 As thou hast sent me into the WORLD, even so have I also sent them into the WORLD.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[Eventide]

umm you might be familiar with John 3v16


john 3v14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You need the special Calvinistic dictionary of biblical terms in order to understand.. the world only means the elect; those who God choose unconditionally.. ya know, the ones who don't need to repent, take up their cross, deny self.. any of that normal biblical wording..

 

[savedbygrace57]

warh:

umm you might be familiar with John 3v16

Did you read post 925 ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

To reconcile us to God ! -



Another stated purpose for the death of Christ, God's Son is to reconcile us [ those He died for] to God !

Rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

All those Christ died for have been reconciled to God by His Death, it cant be made more plainer than what this scripture states.

And this reconciliation occurred while or when we were enemies, that is faithless.

You see, thats a major difference between those who are God's enemies by nature, the non elect, and those who are the elect who are God's enemies by nature, the elect are still reconciled to God and in His Favor.

The word reconciled is the greek word Katallasso and means:

to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

to reconcile (those who are at variance)

return to favour with, be reconciled to one

to receive one into favour

So that, even while we are enemies by nature, all those Christ died for have been received into God's Favor.

However, this is not True for all those Christ did not for, instead of His Favor, they remain under God's wrath.. Jn 3:36


He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You see, that cannot be True of the elect while they are unbelievers and enemies..because while in that state, they have been reconciled to God by Christ death..

 

[Jozinky]

Greetings everyone;

Question;
For those of you who believe that Christ died for "all mankind" or "everybody"; does that mean absoultely everybody in the entire human race who ever was or shall be born?

Does it include;
-Everybody who died in their sins before the cross; people from the Flood and Sodom & Gomorrah who are now suffering everlasting punishment for their sins?

-Everybody from the cross to the consummation including the anti-christ, the man of sin in 2Thes and people who commit the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit for whom there is no possibility of salvation?

Did the Jesus you believe in die for all these?

Thanks;
James Kirby

 

[warhorse]

warh:



Did you read post 925 ?

No!!! but i read post one.

 

[warhorse]

Greetings everyone;

Question;
For those of you who believe that Christ died for "all mankind" or "everybody"; does that mean absoultely everybody in the entire human race who ever was or shall be born?

Does it include;
-Everybody who died in their sins before the cross; people from the Flood and Sodom & Gomorrah who are now suffering everlasting punishment for their sins?



-Everybody from the cross to the consummation including the anti-christ, the man of sin in 2Thes and people who commit the unforgivable sin against the Holy Spirit for whom there is no possibility of salvation?

Did the Jesus you believe in die for all these?

Thanks;
James Kirby

It means that Christ died for the sins of all mankind in the hope that all men would except him, and with the knowledge that all men would not.

 

[Jozinky]

It means that Christ died for the sins of all mankind in the hope that all men would except him, and with the knowledge that all men would not.

Greetings;

So your answer would be Yes to both elements of my question. Is that right?
You believe in a Jesus who died for people who already perished in their sins before the cross and for the antichrist and the man of sin as well as those who were beyond salvatyion having committed the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit. Is that correct?

James Kirby

 

[Who Says]

We know that Christ did not die for everyone without exception because of the efficaciousness of the results His death . His death actually perfects forever all those He died for !

Hebrews 10:

14For by one offering [His death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Those who Christ offered Himself for in death, have been perfected forever and for this cause they shall be continuously being sanctified..

Its just impossible for Christ death not to produce this result..

John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (KJV)

John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." (KJV)

 

[savedbygrace57]

No!!! but i read post one.

Well read it..

 

[savedbygrace57]

It means that Christ died for the sins of all mankind in the hope that all men would except him, and with the knowledge that all men would not.

Is that what your jesus hopes ? Too bad. The One I serve shall save all for whom He died...

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (KJV)

John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." (KJV)

Good verses, you wanna elaborate a little ?

 

[Sinthesis]

Is that what your jesus hopes ? Too bad. The One I serve shall save all for whom He died...

Big deal! Many have died for nothing and have saved nothing.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Big deal! Many have died for nothing and have saved nothing.

Thats too bad..

 

[savedbygrace57]

To obtain Eternal Redemption for us ! -



Another stated purpose for the death of Christ is shown here Heb 9:

12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained or procured eternal redemption for us.

Note that its a Eternal Redemption, the word Eternal is aionios and means:

without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

without beginning

without end, never to cease, everlasting

And redemption is lutrosis:

a ransoming, redemption

deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

He has obtained or procured for His body, the Church a never to cease, without end deliverance from the penalty of their sins..

So they have the redemption with the forgiveness of sins through His blood eph 1:


7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

And we know all without exception have this Eternal Redemption obtained for them by Christ saying these words unto them:

Matt 7:

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

BTW- Redemption is its own application, not something one has to decide to accept or reject , but something God does or applies :

Lk 1:

68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

ps 111:

9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.


God commands His redemption for His People, His Chosen in Christ. It is not a offer for them to accept or reject.

Isa 43:

1But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

In the redemption that God Himself does or applies, it Turns God's People from their sins Acts 3:

26Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Thats the effect of redemption in addition to the forgiveness of sins, It Turns everyone who has been redeemed from their sins, as a evidence of having been set free..