The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Jozinky]

joz

It is, by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. The word righteous is the same word in the greek for Just as in rom 1:17..where it is stated, the Just shall live by Faith..

So thats how a Life of Faith is effected, by being made righteous by the obedience of one..

Correct and before a person is made righteous he is UNrighteous. 1Cor 6:9-11

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?...
11 And such were some of you:

1Peter 3:18 Because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous,

And under the curse of God...
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.

Jozinky

 

[Jozinky]

joz:



The bible teaches that a man is Justified by Grace titus 3:

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

True. It also teaches that a man is justified by his blood

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

and by WORKS...
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Your problem is you do not know how to discern and properly divide the word of truth so you conglomerate and confuse verses and end up in false doctrine.

Jozinky

 

[savedbygrace57]

joz:

True. It also teaches that a man is justified by his blood

Yes, my point exactly, All the elect born before and after the blood shed of Christ were Justified before God by it. In God's courtroom of Justice, The blood was shed from the foundation, if He was slain from the foundation rev 13:


8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Its not personal Faith which Justifies a person before God, but the merits of Christ blood..

Faith is given to all those who are already Justified in God's courtroom, so they can apprehend it and have assurance of it..

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen..

 

[Jozinky]

joz:



Yes, my point exactly, All the elect born before and after the blood shed of Christ were Justified before God by it. In God's courtroom of Justice, The blood was shed from the foundation, if He was slain from the foundation rev 13:


8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is where your confusion shines. That verse does not show that Christ was =Actually Slain= in eternity. It demonstrates the eternal counsel of God in His Decree... the outworking of which does not occur until the proper time in the history of the world.It's more than obvious that Christ was not actually slain until He went to the cross. In the same manner people are not actually justified until the exercise Faith.

Its not personal Faith which Justifies a person before God, but the merits of Christ blood..

to quote you... that's a Lie! The merits of the blood is the basis upon which justification can take place but it does not take place until a man exercises Faith. All you're doing is denying the word of God. People who do that cannot possibly be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Faith is given to all those who are already Justified in God's courtroom, so they can apprehend it and have assurance of it..

Says you. Here's another example of the confusion and contradiction your false doctrine produces...

Proverbs 10:31 The mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom; But the perverse tongue shall be cut off.

Now... according to your false doctrine the elect are born righteous for that's what it means to be justified. So now if we consider an elect man before he comes to salvation, while he is still in his sin... let's say he's a member of the mafia who murders and spouts forth cursing and filthy speech. You are now forced to say that the mouth of such a wicked person is bringing forth wisdom... which is patently absurd. Scripture teaches that a fountain cannot bring forth sweet & bitter water at the same time and Christ taught that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

The Gospel is the good news that men are Justified by Faith. Therefore the doctrine of Justification by Faith is the Gospel. Now... if a man holds to a False Doctrine of Justification by Faith, as You do, then he holds to a False Gospel by definition.

You're lost friend.

Jozinky

 

[Jozinky]

joz:Faith is given to all those who are already Justified in God's courtroom, so they can apprehend it and have assurance of it..

Really? Let's see how absurd that is;
1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All the elect are born -in Adam-. Anybody who denies that cannot be regenerate.
Being in Adam means being under condemnation for sin. It means being wicked; UNrighteous. Anybody who denies that cannot be regenerate either because for one it denies the Biblical Doctrine of man's depravity.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

The elect are "earthy" before they are saved. So Paul; says....

49 And as ~~~~we have borne the image of the earthy,~~~~~~ we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Paul is teaching here that believers were in Adam before they were saved... which means they were not righteous/justified. Otherwise you have your confusion of good trees bringing forth corrupt fruit before salvation and that contradicts the teaching of Messiah.

Jozinky

 

[savedbygrace57]

joz:

Really?

Yes really, and you are going on ignore, I have rebutted several of your scripture references with the proper sense, but you cannot see the Truth, its evident God is pleased for you to remain in darkness on this matter..

 

[savedbygrace57]

His Death was a Propitiation for the sins of those He died for ! -



1 jn 4:

10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

What does this word mean here ? Propitiation, well it is the greek word hilasmos:

an appeasing, propitiating

2) the means of appeasing, a propitiation


Christ was the means by which God would appease Himself of His Wrath against all those Christ died for. He will, did not, and cannot appease Himself by punishing anyone that Christ has died for, regardless if those persons accept it or not, the point is that He has accepted it from Christ's offering on their behalf..

The word appease means primarily:

To bring peace !

Because of Christ propitiation, peace is restored and those Christ died for have been reconciled to God by the death of Christ which appeased God rom 5:10a

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son

That word reconciled is closely akin to propitiate in 1 jn 4 10..Its greek word is katallassō and means:


to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favour

God was at variance/enmity with the elect because of their sins

But because Christ was sent to be a propitiation, that variance, enmity, conflict has been removed, Godwardly..

So, that even while the elect are at enmity with Him by Nature, they have been reconciled and returned to His Favor by the death of His Son on their behalf.

So the elect, or those Christ died for, are born in need of being converted, yet they are not under judicial condemnation or God's wrath while unconverted, because God has sent His Son to be the propitiation for their sins, because He Loved them..

 

[Jozinky]

joz:



Yes really, and you are going on ignore, I have rebutted several of your scripture references with the proper sense, but you cannot see the Truth, its evident God is pleased for you to remain in darkness on this matter..

The only thing you have "rebutted" is... you butted your head up against a brick wall by =denying= the Scriptures. You have wicked people as righteous and that's an abomination friend. All the elect are wicked before they are saved as I showed here;

[SIZE=+1]The elect are by nature, wicked before they are saved;
2Ch 7:14 if My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Isa 55:7 is a call to salvation which all the elect will hear and respond to and here they are called the wicked.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Many such wicked people heard Peter & repented.

1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judges. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. Obviously! Paul says this person was wicked yet when he repents Paul says to receive him back in!

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled ...

The elect are wicked before they are saved! T[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]hey go astray from the belly, speaking lies.

Let's see you "rebutt" those. Wicked people cannot be Righteous for the two are mutually exclusive. One is either wicked or he's righteous... but your false doctrine has them as Both which is against the Scriptures. Your falsae doctrine denies the "either/or" teaching of Messiah when He said either make the tree good or corrupt. A good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit... but you contradict the Lord Jesus when you say an unsaved elect is righteous... i.e. good ~~while he is bringing forth corrupt fruit~.

Say what you will you hold to a false gospel that denies Christianity.

Prov 11:1 ​A false balance is an abomination to The LORD; But a just weight is his delight.

Your doctrine is a false balance. It clearly twists and contradicts Scripture.
Jozinky
[/SIZE]

 

[Who Says]

Originally Posted by Who Says http://www.christianforums.net/f17/...thout-exception-31816/index63.html#post512952
John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (KJV)

John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." (KJV)

Good verses, you wanna elaborate a little ?

John 15:14 "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

 

[savedbygrace57]

Originally Posted by Who Says
John 15:13 "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (KJV)

John 17:9 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." (KJV)



John 15:14 "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Well, If Christ died for one, His death shall make them righteous..rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Jozinky]

Well, If Christ died for one, His death shall make them righteous..rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That would mean that... before Christ's obedience all the elect in the OT were never made righteous!!! That means you have Unrighteous people bringing forth good fruit.
Your false doctrine is showing.

Jozinky

 

[warhorse]

That would mean that... before Christ's obedience all the elect in the OT were never made righteous!!! That means you have Unrighteous people bringing forth good fruit.
Your false doctrine is showing.

Jozinky

The OT saints were not made rightouse before the cross they remained in there graves untill the resirection of Christ. There salvation came by Jesus, just as all of ours does.

 

[savedbygrace57]

wh:

The OT saints were not made rightouse before the cross

Thats a Lie..

heb 11:

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rev 5:9-10 The effectiveness of Christ redemption !



Rev 5:


9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The effectiveness of Christ redemption proves that it was not for all mankind without exception, this is a precious gospel Truth that Glorifies the Cross of Christ, because it means that His Cross actually saves , thats the power of the cross..1 cor 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The preaching or the method of speaking is not the power of God, but the cross, the focus of the message, it is the power of God unto them who are being saved by it..That is the Cross Saves it has power..

Now returning focus on rev 5:9-10 vs 9 is it anywhere indicated that Christ ransomed [died] for everyone in each ethnic Group ? No it's not, for if so, it would not be careful to read that the ransomed or redeemed are out of every kindred, tongue and people and nation ! So any honest heart can perceive from vs 9 that Jesus redeeming blood was limited in intention, and only meant to save out of all people..

Acts 15:14

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Next, lets consider vs 10 as to what happens to them who are ransomed. It states that Christ by His blood [not by their freewill or faith] makes them to be a kingdom and priest to God, this is the effectiveness, it makes them these things rev 1:


5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Now the same persons that were ransomed in vs 9 are said to be made a kingdom and priests , which is to say that all for whom Christ redeemed by His blood will become believers and shall be saved, for the same Truth is expressed for all whom He reconciled to God by His death, shall be saved by His Life rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

It can be absolutely no one Christ died for that shall not be saved and become a believer, a Priest to God, because the verse is emphatic in stating that those He died for, shed His blood for are made [not offered] into a Kingdom of Priest to God, so its seen from vs 10, that Christ redemption is efficacious in nature.

BTW, Those in 2 pet 2:1 Could not have been bought with Christ redeeming blood, or that would contradict the effectiveness of Christ redemption that is taught here in rev, So evidently the being bought there must mean something other than blood bought redemption..

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Atonement or Satisfaction of Christ is unlimited in its Geographical extent, the whole world and not just Palestine or ethnic jews, but however it is limited in its purpose to save and effectiveness.

God's Purpose of Salvation through Christ is Limited to the seed of Abraham heb 2:16

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Only Heirs of Abraham's seed are promised Eternal life and Salvation..

But the seed of Abraham was not limited to one particular nation or geographical location or race, but was in every nation Gen 17:

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Musing scriptures that clearly set forth the specific intention and objects of Christ death !

eph 5:

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Now from this passage it is clear that the death of Christ has specific beneficiaries. Does paul tell us specifically in this passage who Christ Loved and gave Himself up for vs 25 cp Jn 13:

1Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Now according to paul in this passage, why did Christ give himself for the church ?

So what conditioned must have the church been in, for Christ to give himself for her.

Was paul in this passage making Salvation possible through Christ death or was He making it actual through Christ death ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

more on eph 5:25-27 -



Lets look more closely at the Love of Christ in this passage, who is it that he Loves ? Is it not His Church, and is that not compared to that of a Husband and wife ? Now to say that Christ loved all people without exception the same and equally, His wife as well as those who are not His wife or bride, this seems to lessen His Love for the Church, His Bride, what greater expression of love is it than for one to lay down his life for those he loved jn 15:13, so if Christ died for all without exception, then He loved all without exception in the same manner, which is paramount to a Husband saying to His Special Bride, yes I love you my dearest, but no more than I love any other women. Would the Special Bride feel special ? Was it not a difference of affection towards Rachel by Jacob than towards Leah ? see gen 29:18 & 29:31

Was not Israels election by God a token of her special Love above others ? Deut 7:

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

I believe the Love that Christ has for His Church, those He died for, His Bride, is comparatively speaking like hating those who was not His Bride, for not all without exception are the Chosen Bride of Christ.

Those whom the Father hath given [in marriage] His Son are the ones that come to Him as His Bride Jn 6:


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Just as God brought Adam His Bride to Him [see gen 2:22] which was eve, and because she had come out of him, which meant that she was first in him as one, so it is with Christ, the Last Adam, His Bride was first in Him as in Chosen in Him before the foundation [see eph 1:4] and so God brings her to His Son in time [jn 6:37], they will be attracted to Him and he to them because God chose them for one another for a marriage Purpose, Just as He chose Adam and Eve for a Marriage purpose, for this be a great Mystery paul says in eph 5:32. The account of Adam and Eve in Genesis 2 was a type and picture of Christ and His Bride the Church, so this could be nothing but special and exclusive Love for the Church above all others, expressed in giving His Life for Her...

 

[warhorse]

wh:



Thats a Lie..

heb 11:

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

It was accounted to him for rightousness, but he was not resurected (Because the price was not yet paid ) until after Jesus's resurection.

Romans 3v 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Mathew27v 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

 

[savedbygrace57]

It was accounted to him for rightousness, but he was not resurected (Because the price was not yet paid ) until after Jesus's resurection.

Romans 3v 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Mathew27v 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Thats a Lie..

heb 11:

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jn 10:15



Another scripture to think on as to the specific objects of Christ death is Jn 10:


15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

The word for is the greek word hyper and means:


in behalf of, for the sake of

2) over, beyond, more than

3) more, beyond, over

He lays down His Life in behalf of the Sheep..

So, who here does Jesus state He gives His Life for ? What condition must they [ the sheep] had been in, for it to be necessary for Him to His Life in their behalf ? Does Christ state anything about laying down His life for the goats ?