The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[savedbygrace57]

What about 1 Jn 2:2 ?



1 jn 2:


2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

We know this scripture cannot mean every individual in the whole world has had their sins propitiated for by Christ, since the term itself means a appeasing or removal of God's wrath, hence no one should be under God's wrath as per Jn 3:

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

So its a careless mistake and bible study to take 1 jn 2:2 " whole world" to mean every single individual without exception has God been propitiated for.

Even in 1 jn 5 19

19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Where the exact same expression is used, it would be foolish to understand it in a unlimited sense, for the we there which are believers, whom John identifies himself with, would be the exception.

Lets look at rev 13:3


3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Now this is the same words "Whole World" Does John mean to say that everyone in the whole world without exception followed or wondered at the beast ?

An exception is in vs 8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of

That was the exception as to who was not wondering after the beast. And vs 7 explains what John means by the whole world:

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Yes, the whole world meant that all kindreds, and tongues and nations wondered after the beast, people throughout the whole world.

Thats what whole or all means, its the word holos and means all, whole, completely and its used more than 1200 times as throughout as in throughout the whole world, the beast will have His admirers..

Hence, 1 jn 2 2 is meaning the same thing, that Christ is the propitiation for not only jewish believers, but for believers of all kindreds, tongues and nations, throughout the world..

 

[savedbygrace57]

What about 1 Jn 2:2 ? cont



Now what about rev 12 9


9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Whole World does not mean every person without exception, for in vs 11 we see more than overcomer's:

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

So again, the meaning is the same as it is in rev 13:7

So the phrase the Whole World rarely if at anytime means everyone without exception, but rather, people from all over the world, or throughout the whole world.

You see in the early church it was a problem with gentiles being part of the Church, it was thought that salvation was only for ethnic jews, for even peter did not realize otherwise until acts 10, so on the day of Pentecost, he had only Christ dying for ethnic jews on his mind.

And so even after God convinced him of the universality of salvation [ acts 10:35], the problem did not just go away perhaps for a long time. So the Apostle John in His writings of the epistles wants to keep the problem in check and constantly let it be known that God's wrath has been appeased ob behalf of men and women of every nation, the elect scattered throughout the whole world, and of all time.

Lets look at similarities between 1 jn 2 2 and His Gospel Jn 11 51-52:


51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. or throughout the world..

John is certainly affirming the Limited atonement in this passage, and so with its similarities with 1 jn 2:2 we can conclude John means the same thing in both passages 1 jn 2:2 and Jn 11:51-52..

 

[warhorse]

Thats a Lie..

heb 11:

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

No lie, Being declared righteous did not pay the price. None of the OT saints were ressurected before the cross. it was the blood of Jesus that saved them too. Look dude you are picking a fight were there is none. i dont know anyone who believes that all men were saved at the cross. Some believed and asked Jesus to be saved, some did not and thus they go to hell. The question then becomes one of predestination, meaning did God choose who would be saved and who would not, or was it made available to all, giving us the freewill ability to except the gift and be saved or refuse it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

war:

No lie, Being declared righteous did not pay the price

Who said it did pay the price ? I am witnessing what scripture said about Abel, whether you believe it or not !

heb 11:

4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

 

[savedbygrace57]

His Death was a Propitiation for the sins of those He died for ! -



Let me please elaborate a little more on God sending His Son to be the propitiation for our sins, John writing to Jewish Believers 1 jn 4:10, for He was the apostle to the circumcising, stressed earlier that in the letter 1 jn 2 2 , that not only was Christ the propitiation for our sins [jewish converts] but for the sins of those throughout the world[gentile converts], for He is our Peace, because propitiation appeases the wrath of God for those Christ became a sin offering for and in behalf of.

So now we can understand John to be writing, that God sent His own Son into the World to be the Peace for our Sins, which is a effect or result of His being a propitiation sacrifice.

The Apostle Paul teaches the same blessed Truth as 1 jn 2 2 and 4 10 in eph 2:



11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Yes, Paul was as John establishing the Fact that Christ death was not just for jews but gentiles as well, and He made peace or propitiation for us as one New Man..

It must be understood why these labors were necessary, because under the OT under the Typical economy, the propitiation offerings and sacrifices, they were only for the nation of Israel, Abraham's Physical descendants, the circumcision, and only they benefited. So it was ingrained in the minds of even the saved [as peter for a while] that the Salvation of the seed of Abraham was confined to that Nation and Abraham's physical children of that nation..

 

[warhorse]

His Death was a Propitiation for the sins of those He died for ! -



Let me please elaborate a little more on God sending His Son to be the propitiation for our sins, John writing to Jewish Believers 1 jn 4:10, for He was the apostle to the circumcising, stressed earlier that in the letter 1 jn 2 2 , that not only was Christ the propitiation for our sins [jewish converts] but for the sins of those throughout the world[gentile converts], for He is our Peace, because propitiation appeases the wrath of God for those Christ became a sin offering for and in behalf of.

So now we can understand John to be writing, that God sent His own Son into the World to be the Peace for our Sins, which is a effect or result of His being a propitiation sacrifice.

The Apostle Paul teaches the same blessed Truth as 1 jn 2 2 and 4 10 in eph 2:



11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

Yes, Paul was as John establishing the Fact that Christ death was not just for jews but gentiles as well, and He made peace or propitiation for us as one New Man..

It must be understood why these labors were necessary, because under the OT under the Typical economy, the propitiation offerings and sacrifices, they were only for the nation of Israel, Abraham's Physical descendants, the circumcision, and only they benefited. So it was ingrained in the minds of even the saved [as peter for a while] that the Salvation of the seed of Abraham was confined to that Nation and Abraham's physical children of that nation..

Agreed, so what determines the who, freewill or predestination?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Agreed, so what determines the who, freewill or predestination?

Both, God's Freewill and His Predestination..

 

[savedbygrace57]

warh:

The question then becomes one of predestination, meaning did God choose who would be saved and who would not, or was it made available to all, giving us the freewill ability to except the gift and be saved or refuse it.

God chooses who will be saved and who will not..

 

[warhorse]

warh:



God chooses who will be saved and who will not..

Chooses or chose, and do we have any freewill choice or not?

 

[Who Says]

Well, If Christ died for one, His death shall make them righteous..rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Yes, we know he died for all that any who would, might humble themselves and repent.

I suppose it is a bit of a matter of semantics. But in the final result he died only for those who were his friends. He keeps no association with those who love lawlessness. They are not his friends.

That is why we must "hate what is bad and cling to what is good."

 

[savedbygrace57]

whosays:

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

This is the same as rom 5 19 b..these here in vs 15 who Christ died for, as a result shall not live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them..So that means by His death they are made righteous..Thats what rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. This means righteous living too..

 

[Who Says]

Chooses or chose, and do we have any freewill choice or not?

Do you believe that each and every individual who ever was or ever will be saved was known to God individually by name from before the beginning of the world? And that conversely the sons of perdition were also foreknown to him individually by name?

 

[Sam21]

It is funny that those who believe that only special persons can be saved are always sure that they are one of those special persons. How do you know that you are really one of the special elect? Maybe you are just an eternally lost person who cannot be saved but who is trying to bring salvation by your own efforts? To those who claim they are elected from the past, that is just your opinion, maybe God did not elect you and you are just one of those who cannot be saved,what possible proof could you have that you are one of those saved from the past(because you think so is not evidence).

 

[Who Says]

It is funny that those who believe that only special persons can be saved are always sure that they are one of those special persons. How do you know that you are really one of the special elect? Maybe you are just an eternally lost person who cannot be saved but who is trying to bring salvation by your own efforts? To those who claim they are elected from the past, that is just your opinion, maybe God did not elect you and you are just one of those who cannot be saved,what possible proof could you have that you are one of those saved from the past(because you think so is not evidence).

It sounds like a doctrine to prime for arrogance, doesn't it.

Well it does to me anyway.

I believe that we are not created in the image of God to use our will independent of God as the free will use permitted through sin would imply.

In a way our will is meant to be cast like those crowns in Revelation cast before God's throne symbolizing our ridding ourselves of self will and completely surrendering to God's will, completely replacing our will with his will.

Therefore I conclude that true freedom of will is not found in our own will but in God's. He made us and only he really knows what is best for us.

The use of our own will is as eating from the tree of good and evil. The complete replacement of our self will with God's will is as eating from the tree of life.

I therefore believe that the only reason God gives us the choice to choose to surrender to him is that such freedom is what we seized through sin and God now deals with us according to the way we seized.

If God gave us our free will then why would he punish its use opposite his wishes? But he justly does punish our use of free will to defy him as the free will to choose to defy him is what Adam seized when Adam chose to sin. And this free will or self will is what became spread to Adams children.

But in Christ whom we are to grow image to image to his likeness,we are shown, John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

And we are told, John 15:5 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."

Think about what Paul said, 1 Corinthians 4:4 "For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord."

 

[warhorse]

Do you believe that each and every individual who ever was or ever will be saved was known to God individually by name from before the beginning of the world? And that conversely the sons of perdition were also foreknown to him individually by name?

Yes, but foreknowledge does not eliminate choice. I have been married 10 years now, when we go out to eat i already know what my wife will choose to eat, but she still has the freedom to choose something else, she doesnt but the freedom is still there.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

warh:



God chooses who will be saved and who will not..

That just goes against the character of God. To say that God chooses who will be saved and who will not, is saying that God is not fair or just, and God can't NOT be fair or just. God is Sovereign (absolute authority), Righteous (absolute goodness, virtue, integrity), Just (absolute fairness and equity), Love, Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipotent (all powerful), Immutable (does not change), Veracity (absolute truth). God will NOT violate any one of his attributes. If he chooses person A to be saved, and person B to not be saved, then on Judgment day, God would have a problem. Person B might want to be saved, and would say that God is NOT fair. That would violate God's character. God gives EVERYONE that He has ever created FREE WILL. That means WE (and everyone that has ever been created) have the CHOICE where we want to spend eternity. Anyone that goes to Hell, gets there by their own choice, not God's.

 

[savedbygrace57]

prov 3

That just goes against the character of God.

You mean the god of your understanding..

 

[Who Says]

Yes, but foreknowledge does not eliminate choice. I have been married 10 years now, when we go out to eat i already know what my wife will choose to eat, but she still has the freedom to choose something else, she doesnt but the freedom is still there.

That is precisely right. And if she used that freedom to be unfaithful to you when you were innocent of any sin against her? Was such a choice what God gave to her? Or did she seize that to herself?

And if you can with your level of experience and wisdom do that through your observation of your wife over the time you have known her, just think how much greater God's capability is to do that.

That is called discernment and is birthed of wisdom combined with observation. 1 Chronicles 28:9 "And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever."


Did you ever ponder the mechanics of how God tells the finally from the beginning as described at Isaiah chapter 46? There are two forces at play there. One is that he is always alive and present to observe things. And the other is that he reaches in and adjusts things to make the end result be what he desires it to be.
Thus he can tell from the beginning what the end will be.

Isaiah 46:2 They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
3 Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:
4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

He is always there to observe and adjust them.

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

An example of him doing this can be read about at 1 Kings 22:19-23. (2 Chronicles 18:18-22)

 

[savedbygrace57]

Yes, but foreknowledge does not eliminate choice. I have been married 10 years now, when we go out to eat i already know what my wife will choose to eat, but she still has the freedom to choose something else, she doesnt but the freedom is still there.

Man does not have freedom to do anything apart from what God has determined..

 

[Who Says]

Man does not have freedom to do anything apart from what God has determined..

That is right. It is only the illussion of free will that tells man he can.

I used to believe in free will too.

I reasoned that it was necessary to love.

Then I realized we cannot know love by our will.

We can only know what true love is by God's will.

Our will only gets in the way of our ability to love as God loves.

So it is not our will that is necessary to our ability to love, but God's will.

We must divest ourselves of that crown of our own will and completely submit to God's will as our only will.