The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Who Says]

That just goes against the character of God. To say that God chooses who will be saved and who will not, is saying that God is not fair or just, and God can't NOT be fair or just. God is Sovereign (absolute authority), Righteous (absolute goodness, virtue, integrity), Just (absolute fairness and equity), Love, Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipotent (all powerful), Immutable (does not change), Veracity (absolute truth). God will NOT violate any one of his attributes. If he chooses person A to be saved, and person B to not be saved, then on Judgment day, God would have a problem. Person B might want to be saved, and would say that God is NOT fair. That would violate God's character. God gives EVERYONE that He has ever created FREE WILL. That means WE (and everyone that has ever been created) have the CHOICE where we want to spend eternity. Anyone that goes to Hell, gets there by their own choice, not God's.

Psalms 37:28 "For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

He chooses on the basis of what is described at Ezekiel chapter 18.

It is all about love and justice.

 

[Who Says]

For me the sadness of the lack of clarity on subjects such as free will and individual predestination comes as a result of my having talked with so many people of different faiths in a personal one on one setting face to face.

I found that many believed God foreknew Adam would sin and deliberately allowed for it. This has led men to all sorts of crazy ideas.

It is a teaching especially among many Muslims at least in the USA that Satan is a good angel doing God's work. They say that there must be evil for us to know what is good. A yen and a yang philosophy.

What I see is that we only need know God to know what is good. What I see is that we would not have known evil if we had stuck faithfully to only knowing God. And then no one would have had to suffer to learn. We would have only known God's love.

But it is the teaching that God is omniscient in an absolute sense that allows for those twists of teachings. And that is not just for those that believe in God.

There are those who are repelled at the idea of believing in God because as they say, "Would you deliberately subject your children to such misery and suffering?" They believe that God is in no way love.

And the teaching of God creating men to have free will further compounds this. Many exclaim, "God gave free will to man knowing man would mis-use it so that makes God responsible for sin and unjust for then sentencing us to death for sin."

Similarly is the teaching that the 'Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil' was in the garden to test man. Many say, "Why if it is not bad enough that God knew man would sin he deliberately tempted them to do so." That is how they come to see him as working with Satan.

These God dishonoring doctrines have gone on long enough. It is way past time that all true Christians should humbly re-examine these beliefs.

I have known many Christians who believed in God and zealously worshipped Him and then had their child or other loved one die a horible death. These very doctrines suddenly became the enemy to their faith. They had no power to get through their horible experience as that power was robbed away from them by those beliefs.

This is not a little thing we are talking about. There is much culpablility if these doctrines be found wrong. And I know they are because I diligently combed the scriptures verse by verse and prayed concerning them over about a decade of time.

The teaching of free will as given and allowed of God; the teaching of individual predestination; the teaching of absolute omnisience; and the teaching that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was atest, are all false. And they have falsely defamed the name of God to this world.

I would welcome an in depth discussion with anyone concerning these doctrines.

 

[ada]

@who says
Right so, but on our lifetime way to seek Jesus/God what is a command you will discern who is God and what is man made tradition, another gospel, another jesus, false prophets, corrupted bible translations,false idols and gods,false doctrines and of cause lies and deceptions.The Holy Spirit will reveal that ruminant discussion, mass book writings, vain interpretations and compromises will turn away our heart from God,because the seed of double-speak,double-standards,double-mindedness and a dialectical conflict of opposites has been officially sanctioned by the Christian establishment and a contract with the enemy.The enemy is named by the scriptures as the adversary of God but many refuse to discern his earthly helpers.This is labeled not political correct.Many Christians became liberals and thats the fruit of the below verses.

Romans 1:16-32
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[warhorse]

That is right. It is only the illussion of free will that tells man he can.

I used to believe in free will too.

I reasoned that it was necessary to love.

Then I realized we cannot know love by our will.

We can only know what true love is by God's will.

Our will only gets in the way of our ability to love as God loves.

So it is not our will that is necessary to our ability to love, but God's will.

We must divest ourselves of that crown of our own will and completely submit to God's will as our only will.

I would disagree. Yes God intervenes from time to time to guide the hearts of men and serve his interests, but if that intervention was as complete as you believe then God himself is to blame for all evil in the world and that does impeach the charector of God. If God has the Charector that he ascribes to himself, then freewill is granted to the point of salvation, and at salvation we come together in agreement (biblical definition of believe) and submite ourselves (our crown) to his will, He then keeps us and seals us to that. Thus the world lives in its own sin and we (those saved) are preserved in the midst of it.

 

[Who Says]

@who says
Right so, but on our lifetime way to seek Jesus/God what is a command you will discern who is God and what is man made tradition, another gospel, another jesus, false prophets, corrupted bible translations,false idols and gods,false doctrines and of cause lies and deceptions.The Holy Spirit will reveal that ruminant discussion, mass book writings, vain interpretations and compromises will turn away our heart from God,because the seed of double-speak,double-standards,double-mindedness and a dialectical conflict of opposites has been officially sanctioned by the Christian establishment and a contract with the enemy.The enemy is named by the scriptures as the adversary of God but many refuse to discern his earthly helpers.This is labeled not political correct.Many Christians became liberals and thats the fruit of the below verses.

That well describes what I see. And I believe that the whole thing is the counterfeit body of Christ in the world domanating the nations as denoted by the queen Babylon (the great pool of assorted teachigs like ours today) sitting upon many waters (peoples and toungues, and nations) while she in reality has more faith in man's kingdoms than in Christ's. Full of every kind of unclean and hated bird who would anatch away the seed of truth before it can be sown.

 

[Who Says]

I would disagree. Yes God intervenes from time to time to guide the hearts of men and serve his interests, but if that intervention was as complete as you believe then God himself is to blame for all evil in the world and that does impeach the charector of God. If God has the Charector that he ascribes to himself, then freewill is granted to the point of salvation, and at salvation we come together in agreement (biblical definition of believe) and submite ourselves (our crown) to his will, He then keeps us and seals us to that. Thus the world lives in its own sin and we (those saved) are preserved in the midst of it.

That is true as I see it only in this world sown of sin. And God merely works with this world allowing it the error of its way on a momentary basis so that as many as posible might see its impropriety.

The fact that Adam was told not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (which well represents the fruit of our own wisdom) tells me that it cannot be as you describe but as a momentary allowance not of God's pleasure. Before that he walked and talked with Adam in the Garden, much more than a time to time involvement. If it was part of God's plan that Adam sin his work was not perfect and he could not have justly put all the blame on Adam sentencing him to death.

 

[warhorse]

That is true as I see it only in this world sown of sin. And God merely works with this world allowing it the error of its way on a momentary basis so that as many as posible might see its impropriety.

The fact that Adam was told not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (which well represents the fruit of our own wisdom) tells me that it cannot be as you describe but as a momentary allowance not of God's pleasure. Before that he walked and talked with Adam in the Garden, much more than a time to time involvement. If it was part of God's plan that Adam sin his work was not perfect and he could not have justly put all the blame on Adam sentencing him to death.

Did you ever wonder why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was there. God did not desire a group of robots to serve him. He gave them choice. Were there is no law to break, there is no opportunity to choose good or evil. God made it easy for adam to succeed, all kinds of trees were there that were ok to eat from, 1 was forbidden. The sin was not in the fruit, it was in the choice to do what God had forbidden. The only thing we have to offer a creator God, is to give back the one thing he wont take back. The freewill choice to love him, and serve him.

 

[savedbygrace57]

whosays:

I used to believe in free will too.

I did too before God undeceived me, its a doctrine of the devil..

 

[Who Says]

whosays:



I did too before God undeceived me, its a doctrine of the devil..

Indeed it is.

They just do not get it that as the only freedom is in God's will it would be an unloving act for him to design us to live by anything else.

They just do not get it that as having our own free will can only interfere with our doing his will (which is the only truly free will) that it would therefore have been an act of hate for him to grant such a thing to us.

Free will is an act of rebellion; it is a seizure brought on when Adam allowed Eve to become more important in his heart than God.

And it is shear lunacy to think we need it to love.

The only love is God's will. We in our will cannot love but with a mixture of good and bad results.

 

[Who Says]

Did you ever wonder why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was there. God did not desire a group of robots to serve him. He gave them choice. Were there is no law to break, there is no opportunity to choose good or evil. God made it easy for adam to succeed, all kinds of trees were there that were ok to eat from, 1 was forbidden. The sin was not in the fruit, it was in the choice to do what God had forbidden. The only thing we have to offer a creator God, is to give back the one thing he wont take back. The freewill choice to love him, and serve him.

I know, The old 'God loves a cheerful giver' idea.

I used to describe it almost exactly as you are presenting it.

You are right on target as to what the sin was.

But the affect the idea had on babes who were offended by it together with what james said began me reconsidering, James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

Then I began to search for the answer to that seeming contadiction. I researched deep into the words used of the comparison to Satan in Ezekiel 28 to determine that Satan was actually a cherub placed there to guard that tree and keep the couple from it.

That clued me that those trees were only loving memory aids given by a loving Father to assist his children to always remember that the power to make choices can be used in either a life giving way or in a pain filled harmful way. Those trees were not tests at all but loving reminders from a loving Father.

I have searched the scriptures throughout and nowhere does it say that God so tested Adam. In fact the description Paul gives of God's love at 1 Cor 13 would not allow it. It would violate his own standards of love. There is just reason for him to put sinful man to the test. But there was no reason for him to doubt Adam. Adam was perfect and without sin.

Free will is not even a true statement. It is an illusion because there is no freedom apart from God's will. All things declare God's glory when they work properly because they work as God wills.

 

[savedbygrace57]

His Death alone Sanctified those He died for !



We know that Christ could not have died for all men without exception, because all for whom He died, gave Himself for, He once and for all sanctified them..

Heb 10:

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

All those Christ died for [ the offering of His body] He sanctified them by His death or His offering of Himself. Now if this be True, those whom are born sinners by nature., but yet Christ died for them, then legally they are sanctified once and for all. The word sanctified in the greek is the word hagiazo and means:

to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

to separate from profane things and dedicate to God

consecrate things to God

dedicate people to God

to purify

to cleanse externally

to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin

to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Also it is in the Perfect Tense which means:

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.

So by one offering [His Death] in the past, those Christ died for have been permanently consecrated to God, freed from the guilt of sin.

Now can one be sanctified before they are born ? If one was sanctified by Christ death 2000 yrs ago, and they are born in 1945 as a sinner, can they still be sanctified by the Death of Christ ? Yes they can be sanctified before they are born, and yes they are sanctified while being born a sinner by nature. Case and example is Jeremiah Lets look at chpt 1 vs 5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah's being sanctified [by the offering of Christ] by God before he came forth out of the womb, and being appointed a prophet, did by no means exempt him from being born a sinner by nature, for all men are born sinners [rom 5:12] yes even Jeremiah, but nevertheless He was in the Purpose of God already sanctified, set apart for a Purpose, and legally free from guilt. Was Jeremiah born a sinner and a enemy of God by Nature ? Yes, but was he born legally condemned by God for his sins ? No, legally he was not guilty and set apart for the Holy Purpose of God, as all men and women are for whom Christ died Rev 5:

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

For being appointed a OT Prophet to God as Jeremiah is no more important to God as being appointed or made into a Kingdom of Priest unto God, both were for His own Glory and Praise !

So Christ could not have died for all the world without exception, because all without exception are not sanctified..

 

[Who Says]

savedbygrace57: I get the feeling you are saying that all who would ever be in the church were at the same time sactified the moment Christ died.

Am I right that you are saying that?

 

[warhorse]

whosays:



I did too before God undeceived me, its a doctrine of the devil..

LOL!!!

 

[warhorse]

I know, The old 'God loves a cheerful giver' idea.

I used to describe it almost exactly as you are presenting it.

You are right on target as to what the sin was.

But the affect the idea had on babes who were offended by it together with what james said began me reconsidering, James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

Then I began to search for the answer to that seeming contadiction. I researched deep into the words used of the comparison to Satan in Ezekiel 28 to determine that Satan was actually a cherub placed there to guard that tree and keep the couple from it.

That clued me that those trees were only loving memory aids given by a loving Father to assist his children to always remember that the power to make choices can be used in either a life giving way or in a pain filled harmful way. Those trees were not tests at all but loving reminders from a loving Father.

I have searched the scriptures throughout and nowhere does it say that God so tested Adam. In fact the description Paul gives of God's love at 1 Cor 13 would not allow it. It would violate his own standards of love. There is just reason for him to put sinful man to the test. But there was no reason for him to doubt Adam. Adam was perfect and without sin.

Free will is not even a true statement. It is an illusion because there is no freedom apart from God's will. All things declare God's glory when they work properly because they work as God wills.

No one said anything about it being a test, but when there are no rules there are no choices. Saten was in the Garden but there is no scripture that i am aware of that indicates he was to guard the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. An angel was appointed to guard the tree of life after the fall. And all things declare Gods glory weather they work properly or not. The brilliance of a single light cannot be determined without something to compare to. Gods love and charector is best displayed against a backdrop pain and despair.

 

[savedbygrace57]

savedbygrace57: I get the feeling you are saying that all who would ever be in the church were at the same time sactified the moment Christ died.

Am I right that you are saying that?

Yes, Scripture is stating that all Christ died for was sanctified by His death..

 

[Who Says]

The brilliance of a single light cannot be determined without something to compare to. Gods love and charector is best displayed against a backdrop pain and despair.

That is human wisdom, the yen and yang idea.

peace.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

Did you ever wonder why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was there. God did not desire a group of robots to serve him. He gave them choice. Were there is no law to break, there is no opportunity to choose good or evil. God made it easy for Adam to succeed, all kinds of trees were there that were ok to eat from, 1 was forbidden. The sin was not in the fruit, it was in the choice to do what God had forbidden. The only thing we have to offer a creator God, is to give back the one thing he wont take back. The freewill choice to love him, and serve him.

Amen brother! It could not be simpler than that. Love does NOT happen without free will.

 

[Who Says]

Amen brother! It could not be simpler than that. Love does NOT happen without free will.

The very tossing off of the crown of self will was only necessary because of sin.

There would have been no such will for us to surrender if Adam had not sinned.

The logic being used saying we would be robots unless God had been given us our own free will is defective in that once we surrender that personal will to do only God's will it would be as surrendering to become robots if what that idea claims be true.

That is why it is insulting to God. It falsely claims that to be born only to do God's will would make us a robot of God. Christ who never ever did anything but the will of God is not a robot of God. So the idea insults Christ.

This robot idea assumes that if God created us to use our will and power to make choices only as he wills that would make us robots. That is a failure to appreciate that his will is the only true freedom and in no way slavery or improper control.

We were never given a will and power to make choices independent of God. God never gave us a right to choose sin. He is therefore justified to punish us for using our will in that way.

Free choice is not the same thing as free will, though. They say God gave us free will and that is something different. God did give us the ability to freely make choices but by the use of his will, not ours.

Our will cannot ever love correctly which is why the world is so confused about what love is.

Only the tossing away our own will in favor of God's will is what is required of us. That is not the same as tossing away our ability to make choices. Our free ability to make choices merely then becomes used to do Gods will instead of our own. In that we can see free choice and free will are two totally different things.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Limited Atonement and Heb 2:8-10 -



Heb 2:


8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Many in man made religions of our day have hijacked this passage of scripture and forced upon it their own selfish understanding, in total disregard for context both immediate and overall subject wise, that is the overall subject of the purpose and accomplishments of the Death of Christ. Now lets consider this passage in its immediate context.

Jesus here is presented in His Mediatorial exaltation as the Life of His Body, the Church, and was made a little lower than the angels for [because] the suffering of death [ the death of obedience rom 5:19b] now crowned with Glory and Honor.

Now in determining for whom He tasted death for, we must understand that a spiritual family existed in His Sonship, as the Son of God, just as it did in His Type Adam who was the Son of God by creation Lk 3:


38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

For the fleshly or earthly family existed in Adam and were made manifest by physical birth and are men! So these [In the Son of God] sustain a covenant relation with Christ as He is their Head, for it is written " He is head over all things to the church" Paul also writes " for there is one God, and One Mediator between God and Men. the Man Christ Jesus, who Gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time " So therefore He by the Grace of God tasted death for every man, for everyone of them, or each one of them, for [ because] it became Him " for whom are all things, in bringing many Sons to Glory, to make the captain or prince of their salvation perfect through suffering. For both He that sanctifieth[Christ] and they that are sanctified [His body] are all of one seed Gal 3:16, 29]; For which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren [even though by nature they are very sinful] So every man God the Father will bring to Glory is a Son in the Sonship of Christ, and they shall receive the Spirit of Adoption whereby he cries abba Father, and they are all the brethren of Christ [rom 8:29b] and He is their elder brother. God spared not His only Son in the redemption of chosen sinners upon the principle of Grace abounding through Jesus Christ in the salvation of every man or every son bought to Glory. So He tasted death for every man or every son that Christ is bringing to Glory..

 

[Who Says]

I will try to simplify this.

You would never claim that God gave us our spirit to be used contrary to his spirit would you?

We know we are to have one spirit, one body, one faith.

Our will is but the manifestation of our spirit. For the righteously inclined individual, Matthew 26:41 "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

There was only ever meant to be that unisom of oneness with God whereby there is one spirit (and its one will and one faith) in one body.

The deal is that our will must be in complete sync with God's for us to image God. We were created in his image. We cannot possibly have a will that was given to us to use any way we might want apart from his will or we do not image him.

That is the point that it was wrong for Adam to try to be "like God" who can freely choose how he uses his will. Our will is only to image God's use of his will, else we do not image God. We become a god to our self. We sully the glory of the image God created us in. (Romans 1: 22-23)

We were created in his image. We were not created to choose whether or not we wanted to be his image. And to be in his image our will must match his.