The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Who Says]

Limited Atonement and Heb 2:8-10 -



Heb 2:


8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Many in man made religions of our day have hijacked this passage of scripture and forced upon it their own selfish understanding, in total disregard for context both immediate and overall subject wise, that is the overall subject of the purpose and accomplishments of the Death of Christ. Now lets consider this passage in its immediate context.

Jesus here is presented in His Mediatorial exaltation as the Life of His Body, the Church, and was made a little lower than the angels for [because] the suffering of death [ the death of obedience rom 5:19b] now crowned with Glory and Honor.

Now in determining for whom He tasted death for, we must understand that a spiritual family existed in His Sonship, as the Son of God, just as it did in His Type Adam who was the Son of God by creation Lk 3:


38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

For the fleshly or earthly family existed in Adam and were made manifest by physical birth and are men! So these [In the Son of God] sustain a covenant relation with Christ as He is their Head, for it is written " He is head over all things to the church" Paul also writes " for there is one God, and One Mediator between God and Men. the Man Christ Jesus, who Gave Himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time " So therefore He by the Grace of God tasted death for every man, for everyone of them, or each one of them, for [ because] it became Him " for whom are all things, in bringing many Sons to Glory, to make the captain or prince of their salvation perfect through suffering. For both He that sanctifieth[Christ] and they that are sanctified [His body] are all of one seed Gal 3:16, 29]; For which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren [even though by nature they are very sinful] So every man God the Father will bring to Glory is a Son in the Sonship of Christ, and they shall receive the Spirit of Adoption whereby he cries abba Father, and they are all the brethren of Christ [rom 8:29b] and He is their elder brother. God spared not His only Son in the redemption of chosen sinners upon the principle of Grace abounding through Jesus Christ in the salvation of every man or every son bought to Glory. So He tasted death for every man or every son that Christ is bringing to Glory..

Thank you. I see what you are saying and I completely agree.

When he said that about dieing for his friends he was not saying that he did not also lay down his life so that others could choose to become his friends.

But if they do become his friends it must be done by God's will, not theirs. It is God's will that if possible all would be saved.

But he is not going to save anyone who shows themself to have the resistent will Satan demonstrated, even though they desire him to save them. They must humble themselves that he can help them to rid themselves of that selfish kind of will. That is the will of the flesh which wars with the will of the spirit.

Therein is another error about the free will belief. We have the will of the flesh which though it too wants to receive good things cares not that it does not deliver out good things. And we have the will of the spirit which cares but has been weakened through sin to become over-ruled by the will of the flesh.

So it is not free will that we have. It is a choice between the will of our flesh and God's will which our spirit desires to do.


Now Amen?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Limited Atonement and Heb 2:8-10 cont



So Christ tasted or experienced death for every man or son, and so He is the propitiation for the sins of the people in america, asia, europe, and africa and etc, and why, Because He experienced or tasted death for each of them, out of every tribe rev 5:

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain[Tasted death], and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

By understanding the nature of the atonement and the certain powerful effects of the cross, it should be noted that the efficacy of it is towards people of all nations, and so words like all, every and the such are used in connection, but they still only apply to the chosen people of God, however man made religions twist the Truth and take advantage of those words, and change them into a lie.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

By understanding the nature of the atonement and the certain powerful effects of the cross, it should be noted that the efficacy of the is towards people of all nations, and so words like all, every and the such are used in connection, but they still only apply to the chosen people of God, however man made religions twist the Truth and take advantage of those words, and change them into a lie.

It amazes me as I read this that you are doing exactly what you say others are doing!. You are changing the meaning of all, every to mean a select group, and not the actual meaning of all,every (meaning there are NONE left out). If God wanted to express that all, every meant a select group, He would not have used the words all or every.

 

[savedbygrace57]

prove 35:

You are changing the meaning of all, every to mean a select group,

Well, yes, The select Group, The Church, comprised out of select groups, that is people out of each nation, tribe tongue and etc..


So the one selected Chosen Church has members for all or every people group, so the words all or every are appropiate to describe the One Elected Church..

 

[savedbygrace57]

That we [The elect or Believers] might live through Him ! -



1 jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we [The Believers He was writing to] might live through him.

10 herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Another Purpose for Christ coming into the world and becoming a propitiation for our sins [if we are believers] was so that we should live [spiritually and abundantly] through Him.

In Adam, the elect of God became a sinful people, in both nature and conduct [ungodly] and so we were dead, that is dead to God, alienated from the Life of God, dead in sin. God sent His Son into the World out of Love for us not only to be a propitiation for our sins [procuring our forgiveness] but also to be life for us, that we may Live Spiritually. So Christ coming not only saved His beloved People from the penalty of Sin, but also He saved them from out of Spiritual Death unto a newness of Life, for He gives us to experience as it were a Spiritual Resurrection from the Dead. Thats why it is said that He became a quickening Spirit 1 cor 15:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. jn 5:

21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Christ gives to all for whom He died and represented Justification unto Life !

Rom 5:

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Here again is the propitiation and Life together, Thats why it says that we should live through Him.. His death effects Life..Because He becomes a Life giving Spirit..


So those who are not and do not experience Life from Him, He did not die for, He did not represent in His death..

Hence, we know

 

[Eventide]

It amazes me as I read this that you are doing exactly what you say others are doing!. You are changing the meaning of all, every to mean a select group, and not the actual meaning of all,every (meaning there are NONE left out). If God wanted to express that all, every meant a select group, He would not have used the words all or every.

This is because Calvinists have bought into the false teaching that THEY are the elect of God.. that God CHOSE THEM personally.. this is the fruit of listening to the doctrines of men.. and yet SBG can't answer a simple question about taking up his cross and denying himself..

It is amazing that so many could be duped into believing this one.. and it's sad that they teach it to young Christians who don't know any better.

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

This is because Calvinists have bought into the false teaching that THEY are the elect of God.. that God CHOSE THEM personally..

He did choose them personally, what scripture says He did not ?

 

[Who Says]

It amazes me as I read this that you are doing exactly what you say others are doing!. You are changing the meaning of all, every to mean a select group, and not the actual meaning of all,every (meaning there are NONE left out). If God wanted to express that all, every meant a select group, He would not have used the words all or every.

Sometimes it does and sometimes it does not.

It depends on whether the context shows the writer to be saying "all" as in "all of you in the church" or "all" as in "all of mankind".

That is where the opportunity for us to see it different from others arises. It depends on how well we considered the context.

 

[savedbygrace57]

We shall be saved by His Life !

Rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Another reason why it is a myth to say that Christ died for all without exception, is because all He died for shall be saved by His Life..

And we know that all without exception shall be saved..for many shall perish in their sins..

What many in man made religion do not understand about the Work of Christ, that it is also Christ responsibility as Saviour of God's People, that what He did on the cross is applied to all He died to save, and thats why its stated after His resurrection that He went to appear before God for us heb 9:


24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

The us here are the elect of God, The many sons He brings to Glory, the seed of Abraham, the children God gave Him, partakers of the Heavenly calling.

Now a major reason for this [His appearing for us], is that as part of His Saving Purpose, He is to make intercession [for application] for all those He died. The Lord Jesus Christ intercessory work is vital for the applying of all His saving benefits to God's elect. There is an efficacy in His intercession, this is True because of His Merit and therefore shall prevail with God.

The Holy Spirit is vital in answering the call here, and is the Gift that the Father gave to the Son for His cross work acts 2:

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

And because we shall saved by His Life, The Holy Spirit communicates to all of God's elect, those Christ died for, the Life we have in Christ as He is our risen Head and Mediator, Hence as it is written, the Gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, and the meritorious ground whereby the Spirit imparts life to dead elect sinners is the work or cross of Christ...

All men without exception do not receive this life, because Christ did not die for them who do not receive it...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Forgivenss or remission of sins !

In defending the truth that Christ did not die for all men without exception, a means of doing that is providing scriptural evidence for exactly what His atoning death did accomplish for all that He die for:

Matt 26:


28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The word remission here is the greek word aphesis and means:

release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

And it is translated forgiveness six times in the NT mk 3:29;acts 5:31;13:38;26:18;eph 1:7;col 1:14

And so one of blessings of the atonement or the blood of Christ accomplished alone, for all those He died for is the remission or forgiveness of their sins all of them col 2:13

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

As just pointed out the word remission and forgiveness are the same in the greek, and means the cancellation of guilt, all legal guilt against the law of God, that properly belongs to guilty sinners , by means of Christ satisfaction [His Blood], He propitiated the Father in behalf of His People [Israel spiritual]. Christ made complete amends to the Law of God for every transgression which the sins of God's people committed. He by His death satisfied the alienation which are sends had made, He compensated for all the wrongs we had done against God's law ps 69:4

then I restored that which I took not away.

So it is imperative to preach as an accomplishment of Christ blood the forgiveness of sins, not the possibility of , if a condition by the sinner is met, but premised completely on the blood of Christ lk 24:


47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Now both repentance and remission of sins were to proclaimed in Christ name, not as duties and conditions to get saved, but as accomplishments of His work on the cross, and He Now as a risen Saviour gives them to a chosen People [Israel] thats what peter preached acts 5:

31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Note: Israel here is not national Israel, but the Israel of God made of jew and gentile..national israel was a type for all God's chosen of all nations, so this scripture shows us the limited scope of intention and application of repentance and remission or forgiveness of sins. The preaching was that God's chosen people, throughout the world might receive the knowledge of their salvation by the remission or forgiveness of their sins lk 1:


77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Yes, remission of sins is salvation..but notice, who receives this knowledge ? His People..see matt 1:21 about His people !

The knowledge of salvation by the remission of sins is a experiential knowledge resulting in a change of mind and behaviour in granting repentance.. These are a effect and accomplishment of the atonement of Christ, and all for whom He died has forgiveness of remission of sins, for its a covenant blessing from His blood heb 8:

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
​

 

[Sam21]

even:



He did choose them personally, what scripture says He did not ?

A reality is not being considered. If Christ only died for certain persons that were picked in the past and the others cannot be saved,then what proof does someone have who claims to be an elect, that they are in reality an elect? Part of the argument is that someone who cannot be saved could very well be calling theirself a christian,so to those who are claiming to be one of the elect, what proof do you have that you are not really one of the lost who just believes that you are one of the elect?
This is the real flaw in this teaching,that those who call theirselves the elect have no proof that they are the elect other than their own assertion. What identifies someone as an elect? Also, why would not some who claim to be an elect just be one of the lost who believes they are an elect?

 

[savedbygrace57]

sam:

If Christ only died for certain persons that were picked in the past and the others cannot be saved,then what proof does someone have who claims to be an elect, that they are in reality an elect?

I believe Ii have answered this before, but God gives His Elect Faith to know their election..Titus 1:

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Heb 11:

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

And as Titus points out, The Faith of the Elect acknowledges the Truth..

So gauge what you believe against the Truth of the Gospel..

And as I pointed out in post 1030 God gives His People the Knowledge of their salvation by the remission of sins..You are asking questions that I have already explained in previous posts..

 

[Hitch]

A reality is not being considered. If Christ only died for certain persons that were picked in the past and the others cannot be saved,then what proof does someone have who claims to be an elect, that they are in reality an elect? Part of the argument is that someone who cannot be saved could very well be calling theirself a christian,so to those who are claiming to be one of the elect, what proof do you have that you are not really one of the lost who just believes that you are one of the elect?
This is the real flaw in this teaching,that those who call theirselves the elect have no proof that they are the elect other than their own assertion. What identifies someone as an elect? Also, why would not some who claim to be an elect just be one of the lost who believes they are an elect?

And what 'proof' is there in your alternative system?

Obviously one could replace 'elect' in your post with 'born-again' 'saved' or on fire for God.

Those claiming free will base eternity,not on grace but rather their choice making prowess. Not on God's omnipotence but on their own decision.

 

[Sam21]

sam:



I believe Ii have answered this before, but God gives His Elect Faith to know their election..Titus 1:

1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Heb 11:

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

And as Titus points out, The Faith of the Elect acknowledges the Truth..

So gauge what you believe against the Truth of the Gospel..

And as I pointed out in post 1030 God gives His People the Knowledge of their salvation by the remission of sins..You are asking questions that I have already explained in previous posts..

Subjective proof is still just a personal assertion that is believed by the person making the assertion. Real christians know that they are saved because of a salvation experience that agrees with the bible,that is personal evidence that is supported by evidence outside the person.
Believing that one has been picked by God before the world has to be a personal opinion because only God would know for sure. Again, the flaw in this teaching is that there is no scriptural evidence that one who claims to be one of the elect is in truth one of the elect. One can claim to be a christian because of a salvation experience that is supported by the bible, however one who claims to be picked before the world has no scriptural proof that they are not self deluded and simply believing they are one of the elect when they are actually one of the lost,also, their personal feelings would have no bearing on reality. Also, there are various people at various times who are so self deluded that they believe they are special and not like the rest of us...in society they are usually referred to as nuts. Anything that would tell you that you are better than the average Joe is not of God.

 

[Hitch]

Subjective proof is still just a personal assertion that is believed by the person making the assertion. Real christians know that they are saved because of a salvation experience that agrees with the bible,that is personal evidence that is supported by evidence outside the person.
Believing that one has been picked by God before the world has to be a personal opinion because only God would know for sure. Again, the flaw in this teaching is that there is no scriptural evidence that one who claims to be one of the elect is in truth one of the elect. One can claim to be a christian because of a salvation experience that is supported by the bible, however one who claims to be picked before the world has no scriptural proof that they are not self deluded and simply believing they are one of the elect when they are actually one of the lost,also, their personal feelings would have no bearing on reality. Also, there are various people at various times who are so self deluded that they believe they are special and not like the rest of us...in society they are usually referred to as nuts. Anything that would tell you that you are better than the average Joe is not of God.

Actually Sam you are saying you're better than the average Joe because you made the proper choice.

Therefor you must be smarter, more innately righteous, spiritual and just all around 'better', than your neighbor.

Perhaps you'll tell us which or what combination of the attributes makes you better Sam?

 

[Sam21]

And what 'proof' is there in your alternative system?

Obviously one could replace 'elect' in your post with 'born-again' 'saved' or on fire for God.

Those claiming free will base eternity,not on grace but rather their choice making prowess. Not on God's omnipotence but on their own decision.

Aaron had four sons, according to this nonsense, God ordained before the world that two sons would be good priests to God and two sons would be fried to a crisp. No, God ordained that all four sons would have the chance to be good priest and he gave all four a choice, two choose the way of God and two choose another way.
You cannot see that anything that makes you so special that you have an automatic "in" which the lower class does not have has to be from satan? This is a glorification of self,a belief that someone in theirself is so attractice to God that they were picked to be above others,utter nonsense!

 

[Hitch]

Aaron had four sons, according to this nonsense, God ordained before the world that two sons would be good priests to God and two sons would be fried to a crisp. No, God ordained that all four sons would have the chance to be good priest and he gave all four a choice, two choose the way of God and two choose another way.
You cannot see that anything that makes you so special that you have an automatic "in" which the lower class does not have has to be from satan? This is a glorification of self,a belief that someone in theirself is so attractice to God that they were picked to be above others,utter nonsense!

Sam tell us all what makes you so special you choose rightly, in contrast to the majority.

What do you see in yourself that makes you better than everyone you know who is unsaved?

Why is God lucky you were so far beyond normal humans you chose to get on His side?

Even Paul says he was struck down and blinded, but you,,,, you didnt need anything like that , it must be because you're so much better than Paul, there can be no other explanation. So please we need to know what makes you so special, maybe ,just maybe, a little of your glory will rub off and give the rest of us a chance. I mean it not as though we can depend of God . We were dead in sin, but that cant apply to you, dead men dont make choices and you of your own volition chose to be born-again, right?

 

[savedbygrace57]

sam:

Subjective proof is still just a personal assertion that is believed by the person making the assertion.

Thats all that matters..either their experience is according to the Truth of the Gospel or it is not. If it was not then they were deceived and will hear these words Matt 7:


22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And I tell ya now, those believing that Christ died for every man without exception, well, thats not the Truth of scripture..

 

[Sam21]

Sam tell us all what makes you so special you choose rightly, in contrast to the majority.

What do you see in yourself that makes you better than everyone you know who is unsaved?

Why is God lucky you were so far beyond normal humans you chose to get on His side?

Even Paul says he was struck down and blinded, but you,,,, you didnt need anything like that , it must be because you're so much better than Paul, there can be no other explanation. So please we need to know what makes you so special, maybe ,just maybe, a little of your glory will rub off and give the rest of us a chance. I mean it not as though we can depend of God . We were dead in sin, but that cant apply to you, dead men dont make choices and you of your own volition chose to be born-again, right?

You are not going to turn the tables,you are the one who claims to be special born, I was just a plain sinner headed for hell and God gave me the opportunity to accept Jesus as Saviour or to reject Jesus as Saviour...God GAVE me that choice just like he gave Adam a choice and just like He has given all a choice. We have a choice because GOD gave us a choice.

 

[Hitch]

sam:



Thats all that matters..either their experience is according to the Truth of the Gospel or it is not. If it was not then they were deceived and will hear these words Matt 7:


22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And I tell ya now, those believing that Christ died for every man without exception, well, thats not the Truth of scripture..

LOL I dont need to tell you that Sam's position requires that he argue for and against subjective proof .