The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[savedbygrace57]

More on remission !

Reconciliation and Remission of sins or forgiveness of sins are connected with one another as per 2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

For that which was the ground of reconciliation [Christ death or blood]

It also was the ground for forgiveness of sins [Christ death or blood].

For certainly reconciliation implies in its nature a canceling out of the punishment of sin. Since it implies a being received into His Favor, God could receive us thusly, because our sins had been put away or remitted.

The greek word for remission aphesis means a sending away, and its also translated deliverance and liberty as in lk 4:


18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Notice by the way who this liberty / remission was preached to, " The Poor " not economically poor but the poor in spirit, the regenerated, those who had been made sensible sinners by New Birth see Matt 5:3. The word is also translated forgiveness in acts 13:38 and eph 1:7.

Forgiveness is another way of preaching the Truth of non imputation of sin as in 2 cor 5 19 and rom 4:7-8.

The remission of sins means God refuses, and will not charge sin to their account for whom Christ died and who become believers. It denotes that there has been deliverance from the curse of the law, Christ having been made a curse for them gal 3. There are other words used in the NT that means the same thing i.e heb 1:


3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

They [ their sins] have removed from the face of God the Judge.

The non imputation of sin [remission] is not only the consequent result of Christ death, but was the underlying cause of His death, hence sin is not imputed to the members of His body, since they were imputed to their Head.

 

[Who Says]

Re: More on remission !

Reconciliation and Remission of sins or forgiveness of sins are connected with one another as per 2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

For that which was the ground of reconciliation [Christ death or blood]

It also was the ground for forgiveness of sins [Christ death or blood].

For certainly reconciliation implies in its nature a canceling out of the punishment of sin. Since it implies a being received into His Favor, God could receive us thusly, because our sins had been put away or remitted.

The greek word for remission aphesis means a sending away, and its also translated deliverance and liberty as in lk 4:


18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Notice by the way who this liberty / remission was preached to, " The Poor " not economically poor but the poor in spirit, the regenerated, those who had been made sensible sinners by New Birth see Matt 5:3. The word is also translated forgiveness in acts 13:38 and eph 1:7.

Forgiveness is another way of preaching the Truth of non imputation of sin as in 2 cor 5 19 and rom 4:7-8.

The remission of sins means God refuses, and will not charge sin to their account for whom Christ died and who become believers. It denotes that there has been deliverance from the curse of the law, Christ having been made a curse for them gal 3. There are other words used in the NT that means the same thing i.e heb 1:


3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

They [ their sins] have removed from the face of God the Judge.

The non imputation of sin [remission] is not only the consequent result of Christ death, but was the underlying cause of His death, hence sin is not imputed to the members of His body, since they were imputed to their Head.

Upon preliminary examination of what you there say, I agree.

Seems well said to me.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: More on remission !

Upon preliminary examination of what you there say, I agree.

Seems well said to me.

What do you understand to be said ?

 

[Who Says]

Re: More on remission !

What do you understand to be said ?

To sum it up in a nutshell (a proverb), 'Christ paved the road for the captives of sin to be able to walk out of sin if they so choose, and if they so choose he receives them into himself no longer imputing sin to them.'

Sadly though, many miss the purpose of that grace and so only think they have entered Christ. The benefits are only fully applied to the ones that enter him to truly cooperate with his will. Then their sins are not imputed as they mature in him to the day that they are able to stand sin free on their own two feet.

But there is more to it than that. :yes

You see these in Christ form the last Adam with Christ.

Therefore his ransom also stays the permanent sentence of death from Adam on this world until this body of the last Adam is revealed the 'sons of God' who form Christ's kingdom over this earth, so that yet others can be saved through them.

That is why there is what is called 'the second death'. That second death will not be stayed so as for anyone to survive it.

Think of the conotations of that concerning the resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous and how that day of judgment is going to work.

This is a possible hope for our loved ones who for reasons that God has compassion toward were unable to find their way into Christ to be declared righteous now.

God is love. God is truly trying to save all that will let themselves be saved.

 

[Hitch]

Good night Mrs Callabash,,,,wherever you are

 

[savedbygrace57]

Shall be made righteous !



Rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This is a most blessed Truth of the Gospel, and if understood properly gives us proof that Christ death could not have been for all men without exception. Now its important to make this known, that all of the many that Christ by His obedience [death Phil 2:8] shall [promise] be made righteous.

The greek word for righteous is kathistēmi:


to set, place, put

a) to set one over a thing (in charge of it)

b) to appoint one to administer an office

c) to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be

d) to constitute, to render, make, cause to be

e) to conduct or bring to a certain place

f) to show or exhibit one's self

1) come forward as

In this statement of shall be made righteous we have Two blessed Truths #1 The Many shall be declared righteous and they shall be shown to be righteous. That is they will be caused to be righteous. This is both legally and subjectively.

All those who are Legally declared righteous objectively by the obedience of ONE, shall also be caused to be righteous [subjectively] so subjective righteousness is the consequence of objective and legal righteousness.

Paul is stating that all for whom Christ died for , which was His One obedience unto death, will be made experientially or subjectively righteous, just as by the one man's disobedience [adam] the many were legally made sinners [before they were born] and we are made experientially subjectively sinners, there is just no way around the meaning of this contrast in vs 19. Now the only way to become subjectively righteous is by the New Birth, just becoming subjectively sinful is by natural birth the new birth is being born of the Spirit, so in essence what paul is saying here in rom 5 19, is that Christ obedience unto death, for the many He represented, ensures their New Birth by the Spirit see Titus 3:5; Jn 3:3-8. This aspect of being made righteous is the commencing of our experiential sanctification, that is sanctification of the Spirit as in 2 thess2:


13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

For this sanctification is the process begun of being made experientially righteous Just as stated in rom 5:19..

So if one never becomes experientially righteous, then Christ obedience unto death was not for them..

 

[savedbygrace57]

more on remission of sins !



The non imputation of sin [remission] is not only the consequent result of Christ death, but was the underlying cause of His death, hence sin is not imputed to the members of His body, since they were imputed to their Head.

Trespasses are not laid to the Charge to the charge of the members of Christ body [2 nd cor 5:19], because they were imputed to their Head Christ, for He was made sin for them, that is a sin offering. God the Father legally constituted Him to be an offering for sin in accordance with the agreement between them in the everlasting covenant. Made Him to be sin means that He appointed Him to be our substitute and to bare our sins, He became legally and officially liable to God's wrath and curse. see gal 3:13.

Christ was made sin for God's people by the reckoning of our guilt to His own account, so much so, He called them His Transgressions and foolishness see ps 69:5 and so Divine Justice was pleased to bruise Him [in our stead] for our sins, and so by His stripes we were healed.

Now the great evidence of one having had their sins remitted or forgiven is that they all will become believers in Him acts 13:


38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

And please pay attention to vs 39 whereby it states BY HIM, everyone believing is freed from the law of moses, they are believing by Him, through Him, because of the redemption in His blood. We will see later Lord willing how redemption has to do with believing in Christ..

So Christ is the instrumental means by which the elect believe..

A similar statement is found in 1 pet 1:21

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Again, Christ being the instrumental means by which men believe in God, and Christ is God as well..

 

[Sam21]

more on remission of sins !



The non imputation of sin [remission] is not only the consequent result of Christ death, but was the underlying cause of His death, hence sin is not imputed to the members of His body, since they were imputed to their Head.

Trespasses are not laid to the Charge to the charge of the members of Christ body [2 nd cor 5:19], because they were imputed to their Head Christ, for He was made sin for them, that is a sin offering. God the Father legally constituted Him to be an offering for sin in accordance with the agreement between them in the everlasting covenant. Made Him to be sin means that He appointed Him to be our substitute and to bare our sins, He became legally and officially liable to God's wrath and curse. see gal 3:13.

Christ was made sin for God's people by the reckoning of our guilt to His own account, so much so, He called them His Transgressions and foolishness see ps 69:5 and so Divine Justice was pleased to bruise Him [in our stead] for our sins, and so by His stripes we were healed.

Now the great evidence of one having had their sins remitted or forgiven is that they all will become believers in Him acts 13:


38Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

39And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

And please pay attention to vs 39 whereby it states BY HIM, everyone believing is freed from the law of moses, they are believing by Him, through Him, because of the redemption in His blood. We will see later Lord willing how redemption has to do with believing in Christ..

So Christ is the instrumental means by which the elect believe..

A similar statement is found in 1 pet 1:21

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Again, Christ being the instrumental means by which men believe in God, and Christ is God as well..

Christ died for sinners and they became the children of God after accepting Christ as Saviour. Paul said that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us, the elect are those saved and in the will of God, so Christ did not die for the elect, He died for sinners who became the elect. At least this is what is taught in the bible.

 

[Hitch]

Christ died for sinners and they became the children of God after accepting Christ as Saviour. Paul said that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us, the elect are those saved and in the will of God, so Christ did not die for the elect, He died for sinners who became the elect. At least this is what is taught in the bible.

As though God is a cosmic reactionary.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I can't believe the most offensively titled (and theologically incorrect) thread here gets over 1100 posts. 2

 

[Proverbs3/5]

I can't believe the most offensively titled (and theologically incorrect) thread here gets over 1100 posts. 2

I can't believe it either. It is like "the song that doesn't end" This is the thread that doesn't end, it just goes on and on my friend, some people started posting not knowing what it was, and they'll just keep on posting forever "just because", it is the thread tha......................................................

 

[savedbygrace57]

sam:

Christ died for sinners and they became the children of God after accepting Christ as Saviour

read post 1106

 

[Pizzaguy]

sam:
read post 1106

You are doing the Gospel a dis-service here. Can you imagine (not that you care about the lost) what a non-believer thinks when he/she reads this thread?

Think about it, they already are, and sure FEEL, distant from God. Often, the unreached have a feeling of being "not good enough" to attend church or to even pray for God's help.

Your posts here can only contribute to a feeling of "why should I even give this Jesus guy a chance - he didn't do anything for me, and this Christian guy comes right out and says it".

What ever your motivation (and I don't see how it can be anything pure or good), starting this thread with such a title is offensive and works against the spread of the Gospel.

I think it's shameful that the admins of this site allow this thread.
And I think YOU are shameful for starting it and perpetuating it.

Very un-Christ-like.

 

[Guap]

I can't believe the most offensively titled (and theologically incorrect) thread here gets over 1100 posts. 2

I'm with you. It is pretty simple isn't it? There are at least two clear verses.
1 john 2:2
John 1:29

I'm surprised by all the talk, and lack of engagement with scriptures about the topic. So many red herrings ...

 

[Hitch]

You are doing the Gospel a dis-service here. Can you imagine (not that you care about the lost) what a non-believer thinks when he/she reads this thread?

Think about it, they already are, and sure FEEL, distant from God. Often, the unreached have a feeling of being "not good enough" to attend church or to even pray for God's help.

Your posts here can only contribute to a feeling of "why should I even give this Jesus guy a chance - he didn't do anything for me, and this Christian guy comes right out and says it".

What ever your motivation (and I don't see how it can be anything pure or good), starting this thread with such a title is offensive and works against the spread of the Gospel.

I think it's shameful that the admins of this site allow this thread.
And I think YOU are shameful for starting it and perpetuating it.

Very un-Christ-like.

Its true no one should ever be allowed to do anything I do t like, and its my privelge to add pizzaguy to the all time list of fellow contributors to the perfect mind.

 

[Hitch]

That one is easy, because of the beautiful,wonderful,loving, kindness and mercy of God working through the Holy Spirit of God. Also, if you have never in your life had God the Spirit speak to you and offer you salvation by accepting the Son of God as Saviour, then you are still in your sins and no imagination of being born special will save you. No one can be saved unless the Spirit of God comes upon the person and convicts them of sin and shows then that faith in God's gift of Christ and his sacrifice will take away that sin and make the person accepted by God.

I dont understand why you argue my side Sam, but it really cant be helped.

At my salvation experience many years ago God actually talked to me and He did not tell me I was special born, He told me I was headed for hell and must accept the Son as my Saviour and commit totally to God. It is one thing to read words and make claims, it is another thing to actually connect with God. Have you ever heard God speak? If you are really doing it right then you should have a response from the other Person.

No Sam I havent heard God audibly.

You're special,.

 

[Hitch]

Yep.. tell him what he's won !

And you're not even man enough to admit that you're wrong.. because you originally told me that I decided to be born again..

I'll waste no more time talking any sense to a two year old..

get this boy a towell

 

[Hitch]

When the atonement is made universal its Inherent value is destroyed. If it is applied to all men, and if some are lost, the conclusion is that it makes salvation objectively possible for all but that it does not actually save anybody. According to the Arminian theory the atonement has simply made it possible for all men to co-operate with divine grace and thus save themselves — if they will. But tell us of one cured of disease and yet dying of cancer, and the story will be equally luminous with that of one eased of sin and yet perishing through unbelief. The nature of the atonement settles its extent. If it merely made salvation possible, it applied to all men. If it effectively secured salvation, it had reference only to the elect. As Dr. Warfield says, “The things we have to choose between are an atonement of high value, or an atonement of wide extension. The two cannot go together.” The work of Christ can be universalized only by evaporating its substance.

Let there be no misunderstanding at this point. The Arminian limits the atonement as certainly as does the Calvinist. The Calvinist limits the extent of it in that he says it does not apply to all persons (although as has already been shown, he believes that it is efficacious for the salvation of the large proportion of the human race); while the Arminian limits the power of it, for he says that in itself it does not actually save anybody. The Calvinist limits it quantitatively, but not qualitatively; the Arminian limits it qualitatively, but not quantitatively. For the Calvinist it is like a narrow bridge which goes all the way across the stream; for the Arminian it is like a great wide bridge which goes only half-way across. As a matter of fact, the Arminian places more severe limitations on the work of Christ than does the Calvinist.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If the Arminian theory were true it would follow that millions of those for whom Christ died are finally lost, and that salvation is thus never applied to many of those for whom it was earned. What benefits, for instance, can we point to in the lives of the heathens and say that they have received them from the atonement? It would also follow that God’s plans many times have been thwarted and defeated by His creatures and that while He may do according to His will in the armies of heaven, He does not do so among the inhabitants of the earth.

“The sin of Adam,” says Charles Hodge, “did not make the condemnation of all men merely possible; it was the ground of their actual condemnation. So the righteousness of Christ did not make the salvation of men merely possible, it secured the actual salvation of those for whom He wrought.”




The great Baptist preacher Charles H. Spurgeon said:

If Christ has died for you, you can never be lost. God will not punish twice for one thing. If God punished Christ for your sins He will not punish you. `Payment God’s justice cannot twice demand; first, at the bleeding Saviour’s hand, and then again at mine.’ How can God be just if he punished Christ, the substitute, and then man himself afterwards?


​

"Limited Atonement" by Loraine Boettner

 

[Hitch]

I can't believe it either. It is like "the song that doesn't end" This is the thread that doesn't end, it just goes on and on my friend, some people started posting not knowing what it was, and they'll just keep on posting forever "just because", it is the thread tha......................................................

So demonstrated interest is the primary reason you would close a thread?

 

[Hitch]

Jesus Himself limited the purpose of His death when He said, “I lay down my life for the sheep.” If, therefore, He laid down His life for the sheep, the atoning character of His work was not universal.

On another occasion He said to the Pharisees, “Ye are not my sheep;” and again, “Ye are of your father the Devil.” Will anyone maintain that He laid down His life for these, seeing that He so pointedly excludes them?

The angel which appeared to Joseph told him that Mary’s son was to be called JESUS, because His mission in the world was to save His people from their sins. He then came not merely to make salvation possible but actually to save His people; and what He came to do we may confidently expect Him to have accomplished.

Since the work of God is never in vain, those who are chosen by the Father, those who are redeemed by the Son, and those who are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, — or in other words, election, redemption and sanctification, — must include the same persons. The Arminian doctrine of a universal atonement makes these unequal and thereby destroys the perfect harmony within the Trinity. Universal redemption means universal salvation.






"Limited Atonement" by Loraine Boettner