The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Hitch]

Any evidence it refers to the non-elect? It says, the whole world. Are the non-elect not part of the world?
I think if you want to say that when the Bible says, Jesus died the for the whole world - it doesn't mean the whole world, then the burden of proof would be on you wouldn't it?
Perhaps you are just taking the piss now.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Can you figure it out from here?

 

[Guap]

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Can you figure it out from here?

I don't really see how another passage talking about being enemies, changes the basic meaning of the whole world meaning the whole world.

John the baptist, says Jesus, takes away the sin of the whole world. I agree with that statement. You say, I need to prove it means that? It means what it says it means.

If you think it means something other than what it says, I think you would need to show how the passage means something other than what it says.

 

[Hitch]

I don't really see how another passage talking about being enemies, changes the basic meaning of the whole world meaning the whole world.

John the baptist, says Jesus, takes away the sin of the whole world. I agree with that statement. You say, I need to prove it means that? It means what it says it means.

If you think it means something other than what it says, I think you would need to show how the passage means something other than what it says.

The elect, his people, were born into the 'world'.

When mom drives to school to pick up the kids,she gos to the school, she enters the property of the school district. While there she finds and retrieves her own children.

 

[Guap]

The elect, his people, were born into the 'world'.

When mom drives to school to pick up the kids,she gos to the school, she enters the property of the school district. While there she finds and retrieves her own children.

Yes, so? They are part of the world.
John the baptist says Jesus takes away the sin of the whole world.
How does saying the elect are part of the world, change the meaning of the whole world?

 

[Hitch]

Yes, so? They are part of the world.
John the baptist says Jesus takes away the sin of the whole world.
How does saying the elect are part of the world, change the meaning of the whole world?

Through the wonders of context G.

The alternative is universalism

 

[Guap]

Through the wonders of context G.

Context? What context?
Suddenly a word changes meaning because of some context which you arbitarily impose on it?
Why not impose the same context on John 8:23 (ESV)
He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world (the elect); I am not of this world (the elect)"
Is that what you believe?

The alternative is NOT universalism. There is a whole big difference between saying someone is forgiven, and someone is reconciled with God.

 

[Hitch]

Context? What context?
Suddenly a word changes meaning because of some context which you arbitarily impose on it?
Why not impose the same context on John 8:23 (ESV)
He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world (the elect); I am not of this world (the elect)"
Is that what you believe?

The alternative is NOT universalism. There is a whole big difference between saying someone is forgiven, and someone is reconciled with God.

Nonsense .



* John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine


John 17:14
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

 

[Guap]

Nonsense .



* John 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine


John 17:14
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

All you are doing here is showing how the idea of the world is not simply the elect- that in fact Jesus takes away the sin of the world - all people, elect or not (not that I like the term elect).

These verses do nothing to show that there is a difference between someone being forgiven and someone being reconciled. Only those who are reconciled with God are saved.

 

[Hitch]

All you are doing here is showing how the idea of the world is not simply the elect- that in fact Jesus takes away the sin of the world - all people, elect or not (not that I like the term elect).

These verses do nothing to show that there is a difference between someone being forgiven and someone being reconciled. Only those who are reconciled with God are saved.

LOL So in your horor God has million whose sins are forgiven, and are sent to hell.

 

[cleanfreak]

Hello Hitch,
Since SBG57 never answered this question maybe you can help shed some light?

see post below:

So how do you know they are God's "chosen"? Why waste your time?

If they accept Christ as their Savior and then fall away,are they still considered "chosen"? Did God change his mind about them?

If you believe all that you have posted, then why even witness at all? What would be the purpose?

I fear you do not have an appropriate answer. You have posted numerous scriptures and several threads about the same issue based on your opinion, but you cannot seem to answer a simple question.

 

[Guap]

LOL So in your horor God has million whose sins are forgiven, and are sent to hell.

in your horor?

But yes, this is what God says in scripture. Not wanting something to be true doesn't make it false. It doesn't change that scripture says,
Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world
And as you pointed out from John 17, clearly, world doesn't mean only the elect.

 

[Hitch]

Hello Hitch,
Since SBG57 never answered this question maybe you can help shed some light?

see post below:

Lets suppose you are an avid steelheader. You learned all you can about the equipment needed, you've got your truck ready and all your tackle .


You grab your special graphite rod and your lure is placed on the appropriate leader, hook sharpened, weights applied, you're ready to capture the elusive steelhead.

So with all your stuff you go down to the bus depot and toss your line into the toilet.:toofunny

Why not?

Would it be smarter to put your line where you knew there were steelhead?

According to your question its senseless to fish where you know fish exist.

 

[Hitch]

in your horor?

But yes, this is what God says in scripture. Not wanting something to be true doesn't make it false. It doesn't change that scripture says,
Jesus is the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world
And as you pointed out from John 17, clearly, world doesn't mean only the elect.

So where does scripture say God forgives men to send them to hell ?

I've been through that book and missed that one.

 

[cleanfreak]

Lets suppose you are an avid steelheader. You learned all you can about the equipment needed, you've got your truck ready and all your tackle .


You grab your special graphite rod and your lure is placed on the appropriate leader, hook sharpened, weights applied, you're ready to capture the elusive steelhead.

So with all your stuff you go down to the bus depot and toss your line into the toilet.:toofunny

Why not?

Would it be smarter to put your line where you knew there were steelhead?

According to your question its senseless to fish where you know fish exist.

great parable, but it does not answer my question in any shape, form, or fashion. Good try though.

So where does scripture say God forgives men to send them to hell ?

I've been through that book and missed that one.

twisting words you have......

 

[Hitch]

great parable, but it does not answer my question in any shape, form, or fashion. Good try though.

Why not?

twisting words you have......

But it does not answer my question in any shape, form, or fashion.

Show me who's sins are forgiven and is sent to hell.

 

[cleanfreak]

Why not?But it does not answer my question in any shape, form, or fashion.

because it is misleading. I asked a direct question. How about a direct answer?

Show me who's sins are forgiven and is sent to hell.

I have asked for forgiveness of my sins. If I choose to fall away afterwards, I will go to hell.


I am gone for today, but will check back tomorrow for your replies. Cheers.

 

[Hitch]

because it is misleading. I asked a direct question. How about a direct answer?

Actually you asked several including ;


If you believe all that you have posted, then why even witness at all? What would be the purpose?


You found no value in my response, except to say it was misleading , LOL

I have asked for forgiveness of my sins. If I choose to fall away afterwards, I will go to hell.

Then you will go to hell with your sins accounted, yes? I repete;

Show me who's sins are forgiven and is sent to hell.

I am gone for today, but will check back tomorrow for your replies. Cheers.

Take care

H

 

[savedbygrace57]

guap:

Again other than just saying that is what it means, do you have any evidence that this is the case?

I have no evidence you can see, but I already told you, those in 1 jn 2:2 and Jn 1 29 have no sins to be punished for. Both places speaks of those whoses sins have been taken away from before God, which we know cannot apply to everyone without exception..

 

[savedbygrace57]

guap:

that in fact Jesus takes away the sin of the world - all people, elect or not

You have no scripture to verify that Jesus takes away the sin of the whole world elect or not...

The world that Jesus takes away its sin, has no reason to be punished for their sins, it has total forgiveness, which is not the case for all in the world without exception, pretty simple to understand..

 

[Eventide]

Re: The Myth of Calvinism...

guap:



You have no scripture to verify that Jesus takes away the sin of the whole world elect or not...

And HE IS the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Calvinists can't accept this in child like faith... they must make the world mean something entirely different than what it says... AS IF GOD could NOT have said it the way that they do... that's not faith at all.. it's called distorting the truth of God's word..

Here's another simple one..

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

All in the first Adam condemned.. all in the Last Adam justified freely..