The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Hitch]

Christ declared that the elect and the redeemed were the same people when in the intercessory prayer He said. “Thine they were, and thou gayest them to me,†and “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine: and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them,†John 17:6, 9, 10. And again, “I am the good shepherd; and I know my own, and mine own know me, even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep,†John 10:14, 15.

The same teaching is found when we are told to “feed the Church of the Lord which He purchased with His own blood,†Acts 20:28. We are told that “Christ loved the Church, and gave Himself for it,†Eph. 5:25; and that He laid down His life for His friends, John 15:13. Christ died for such as were Paul and John, not for such as were Pharaoh and Judas, who were goats and not sheep. We cannot say that His death was intended for all unless we say that Pharaoh, Judas, etc., were of the sheep, friends, and Church of Christ.


Furthermore, when it is said that Christ gave His life for His Church, or for His people, we find it impossible to believe that He gave Himself as much for reprobates as for those whom He intended to save. Mankind is divided into two classes and what is distinctly affirmed of one is implicitly denied of the other. In each case something is said of those who belong to one group which is not true of those who belong to the other. When it is said that a man labors and sacrifices health and strength for his children, it is thereby denied that the motive which controls him is mere philanthropy, or that the design he has in view is the good of society. And when it is said that Christ died for His people it is denied that He died equally for all men.


"Limited Atonement" by Loraine Boettner


enough for now

 

[savedbygrace57]

hitch:

Christ declared that the elect and the redeemed were the same people when in the intercessory prayer He said. “Thine they were, and thou gayest them to me,†and “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine: and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them,†John 17:6, 9, 10. And again, “I am the good shepherd; and I know my own, and mine own know me, even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep,†John 10:14, 15.

Good post, now consider :

The scripture presents mankind into Two Divisions, the seed of the woman, the seed of the serpent [children of the devil], the church and the world, friends of God and enemies, sheep and goats, tares and wheat. Now whatever is said particularly of one division [sheep] it is implicitly denied of the other i.e when Jesus says He lays down His Life for the Sheep, such discriminate language is worthless if He laid down His life for the goats..

Jesus said I pray not for the world Jn 17:9, therefore He died nor for the world, because His death [sacrifice] and His intercession have the same objects rom 8:

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us[elect vs 33].

Matt 20:


28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Why does Christ say here only many if all people without exception is meant ? cp Heb 9:


28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Guap]

Jesus Himself limited the purpose of His death when He said, “I lay down my life for the sheep.†If, therefore, He laid down His life for the sheep, the atoning character of His work was not universal.



"Limited Atonement" by Loraine Boettner

I think this misses the word, 'only' doesn't it?
If I say I'm doing something for someone, it does mean that I'm not doing it for someone else. Unless I specifically exclude that possibility.

 

[Guap]

Furthermore, when it is said that Christ gave His life for His Church, or for His people, we find it impossible to believe that He gave Himself as much for reprobates as for those whom He intended to save.

"Limited Atonement" by Loraine Boettner


enough for now

If John says it is so, then why not believe John?

 

[Eventide]

If John says it is so, then why not believe John?

Over Loraine Boettner ? Come on now.. that's absurd.. surely Loraine knows better.. lol

 

[Hitch]

Over Loraine Boettner ? Come on now.. that's absurd.. surely Loraine knows better.. lol

LOL So now you're pretending you've read Boettner?

 

[Hitch]

I think this misses the word, 'only' doesn't it?
If I say I'm doing something for someone, it does mean that I'm not doing it for someone else. Unless I specifically exclude that possibility.

LOL Thats all ya got and its pathetic.

But I'll ask you the same question I ask all the theology experts;

Which of Calvin's titles have you read personally?

Were you smart enough to even read the entire linked article posted here?

 

[savedbygrace57]

More on Shall be made righteous !



Rom 5:

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1 cor 15:

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 5:19b can very well read so by the obedience of one shall many be made alive !

Even though in entirely different context, these scriptures teach the same principle of Truth, how the action of One as a Representative Head produced consequences and effects for whoever that one was a Representative Head; And so Just as Adam's disobedience effected sinnership and death, even so, Christ obedience for those He represented [His Church] effected righteousness and Life, hence Christ people are made alive to righteousness.

Thats why it says in rom 5 18b

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Life here is not a legal term but a principle, its the greek word zoe and means:

life

a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate

b) every living soul

2) life

Its that spiritual life that Christ as the bread of Life gives to the elect world, the Church jn 6:

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Remember, in the OT what world did God give the bread from Heaven to ? Was it not just to His Chosen world of Israel, which was a type of His Church, His called out ones ?

So all those for whom Christ was a Head to, whom He represented, by His obedience [death] they shall be made alive, that is receive from Him Justification unto life..

They shall be made alive unto righteousness as per rom 6:13

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Thats because they were made alive by Christ..

 

[savedbygrace57]

I'm with you. It is pretty simple isn't it? There are at least two clear verses.
1 john 2:2
John 1:29

I'm surprised by all the talk, and lack of engagement with scriptures about the topic. So many red herrings ...

Both of those verses are speaking to all the elect.. I jn 2 2 is that world that has had its sins propitiated, that is God is satisfied and appeased on their behalf, so He can never punish them for sin..

and the world in Jn 1 29 has had its sins taken away, so that world cannot be punished by God for sins..

So both worlds here pertain to those who are being saved..all those who shall go to hell are not included..

 

[Eventide]

Both of those verses are speaking to all the elect...

When you say the elect, could you tell us the basis for their election.. and is it conditional or unconditional..?

 

[Guap]

Both of those verses are speaking to all the elect.. I jn 2 2 is that world that has had its sins propitiated, that is God is satisfied and appeased on their behalf, so He can never punish them for sin..

and the world in Jn 1 29 has had its sins taken away, so that world cannot be punished by God for sins..

So both worlds here pertain to those who are being saved..all those who shall go to hell are not included..

No where else in John's writings does the 'world' refer to the elect. In fact in 1 John it refers to those who are specifically against believers.
1 John 2:2 refers to us, the believers and not just us, the believers but the whole world!

 

[Guap]

LOL Thats all ya got and its pathetic.

But I'll ask you the same question I ask all the theology experts;

Which of Calvin's titles have you read personally?

Were you smart enough to even read the entire linked article posted here?

Actually I specfialised in Luther not Calvin. Haven't read too much of him.
I'm not sure why it is pathetic to say the argument doesn't prove anything when it doesn't. Clearly there are two verses which say Jesus died for the whole world, and all you do is say, when it says, the world, it means the elect, despite the fact that no where else in the bible does, 'the world' (o kosmos) mean the elect.

But I guess it is simplier just to make up meanings for words when it doesn't suit what you are trying to say.

 

[savedbygrace57]

guap

No where else in John's writings does the 'world' refer to the elect.

Thats what those verses refer to, His elect throughout the world, both jew and gentile believers..

 

[Guap]

guap



Thats what those verses refer to, His elect throughout the world, both jew and gentile believers..

Again other than just saying that is what it means, do you have any evidence that this is the case? Other than this is what you decree?

LEt's apply this logic to some other verses in John
John 1;10, Jesus was amongst the elect (the world) and the elect (the world) was made through him, yet the elect (the world) did not know him.

How is it the elect did not know him? Didn't the apostles know him?

John 7:4, For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the elect (the world)."

John 7:7, The elect cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. (Jesus testifies that the elect are evil???? - the elect hates Jesus?

John 8:24 Jesus said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of the elect (the world); I am not of the elect (the world).
So JEsus is not one of the elect? But the Pharisees who reject him are?

 

[Hitch]

Again other than just saying that is what it means, do you have any evidence that this is the case? Other than this is what you decree?

Well Guap do you have any evidence that those passages refer to the non-elect?

 

[Guap]

Well Guap do you have any evidence that those passages refer to the non-elect?

see the above post about what 'the world' means in john, the examples of how it would work if the world was only the elect.

 

[Hitch]

see the above post about what 'the world' means in john, the examples of how it would work if the world was only the elect.

Why? That has nothing to do with what Saving posted;

Thats what those verses refer to, His elect throughout the world, both jew and gentile believers..

Its sad but I dont think you misread

 

[Guap]

Why? That has nothing to do with what Saving posted;

So you think we can just pick and choose what words mean?

 

[Hitch]

So you think we can just pick and choose what words mean?

Well Guap do you have any evidence that those passages refer to the non-elect?

 

[Guap]

Well Guap do you have any evidence that those passages refer to the non-elect?

Any evidence it refers to the non-elect? It says, the whole world. Are the non-elect not part of the world?
I think if you want to say that when the Bible says, Jesus died the for the whole world - it doesn't mean the whole world, then the burden of proof would be on you wouldn't it?
Perhaps you are just taking the piss now.