The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Hitch]

hitch:



Be specific here, which comes first the believing or the imparted life ?

Regeneration is the sovereign act of God whereby He imparts His very life and His very nature to the believing sinner (John 1:12-13; Titus

Isnt the order right here in the quote?

 

[cleanfreak]

What part of its stupid for you to ask me questions dont you understand?

I simply stated "if you choose to". I see now you do not.

Sorry to have bothered you. I will continue to search for an answer to my question as none here have been able to answer it.

cheers

 

[savedbygrace57]

Regeneration is the sovereign act of God whereby He imparts His very life and His very nature to the believing sinner (John 1:12-13; Titus

Isnt the order right here in the quote?

So are you saying the the spiritual act of believing is done before spiritual life has been given ?

Does the sinner believe while dead in trespasses and sins and alientated from the life of God ? Yes or no please, and then your reason for your yes or no..Thanks..

 

[savedbygrace57]

It gives redemption ! -



Eph 1:

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

As we can see Redemption is connected with remission or forgiveness of sins [which is non imputation 2 cor 5:19] for sins are forgiven by the redeeming blood of Christ.

Because Christ on behalf of the sheep, satisfied God's wrath, the redemption of the sheep is the fruit or result thereof. In eph 1 7 we read " In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Its noted of the preposition paul uses here, which is nit through whom, but in whom we have redemption, because redemption was a right to each one its was to be applied to by the Spirit of promise when regenerated, and because Christ died, and we were chosen in Him before the foundation eph 1:4. We had a right because Jesus was our near kinsmen Redeemer because of having been chosen in Him by the Father.

Now, Just like the elect had condemnation before being born into this world, likewise the elect have redemption in Christ based upon His obedience, before being born into this world..But this ensures our release from captivity of sin.

Christ gave Himself a ransom for many, thus effecting their redemption, these terms when used in reckoning the workk of Christ are joined together, the ransom denoting the price paid [ Christ life or blood] and the redemption, the effect of the ransom, is the liberation out of a prison of a prisoner [ who had been shut up into unbelief and sin, spiritual death]. The ransom paid demands the prisoners to be set free from the captivity of Satan !

 

[Hitch]

So are you saying the the spiritual act of believing is done before spiritual life has been given ?

Regeneration is the sovereign act of God whereby He imparts His very life and His very nature to the believing sinner (John 1:12-13; Titus
'
It seems you're hung up on the' believing sinner'. But that gives neither license nor reason to reverse the obvious intent behind the quote. [/quote]




Does the sinner believe while dead in trespasses and sins and alientated from the life of God ? Yes or no please, and then your reason for your yes or no..Thanks..[/QUOTE]No.

I stand in Paul's, the chief of sinners, shadow.

 

[savedbygrace57]

hitch:

Does the sinner believe while dead in trespasses and sins and alientated from the life of God ? Yes or no please, and then your reason for your yes or no..Thanks..

No.



Thats correct, one must first be saved experimentally [Spiritually alive] before they can believe in Christ.

 

[Guap]

gua:



Uh No..

Life and Eternal Life are sometimes the same..

Matt 18:9

And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Life here is eternal life..

In Matt 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



No, God gave men physical life through Adam, when God told Adam to be fruitful and multiply..all the physical lives of men were made in Adam..

Acts 17:

26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

God gives spiritual Life through Jesus Christ..1 jn 4:9

In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Jesus is not a natural man, but a spiritual man, adam was the natural man:

1 cor 15:

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

I am seeing that you cannot understand these things..

The Life Jesus gives is not physical life sir, its spiritual life Jn 6:

33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

The bread here is not physical bread, but its spiritual life and nurishment..

Now if you do not want to accept it, thats on you, I am through repeating it..

You've quoted Matthew to prove how John uses a word. I don't think this is particularly valid. Especially when you compare 'eternal life' - which is stated as eternal life, and life - which is not stated as eternal life.

Remember you are trying to prove that world, only means 'elect'. So here you are not only forcing a meaning of elect onto world, but you are also forcing, eternal life onto life.

 

[savedbygrace57]

gua:

You've quoted Matthew to prove how John uses a word.

I have given you more than enough scripture to prove the Truth, if you do not believe, so be it..All those Christ died for shall be made righteous, hence, since all without exception are not made righteous, then He could not have died for all without exception..period..rom 5:19b

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Eventide]

And let's not forget that by one man's offense (the first Adam) condemnation has come upon ALL MEN.. and that by the obedience and righteousness of one (the Last Adam) all men may be justified freely IN CHRIST.. because it's not our old nature or life which is justified before God, it's the life of Christ within us that is justified.. for He alone is the Way, the Truth, and the Life..

Perhaps one of the largest stumblingblocks in Christendom.. that there are none good but one, and that is God.. and that ALL men is Adam share the same fate.. condemned in their Adamic nature which is according to the FLESH..

Flesh gives birth to FLESH

Spirit gives birth to SPIRIT

 

[Hitch]

And let's not forget that by one man's offense (the first Adam) condemnation has come upon ALL MEN.. and that by the obedience and righteousness of one (the Last Adam) all men may be justified freely IN CHRIST.. because it's not our old nature or life which is justified before God, it's the life of Christ within us that is justified.. for He alone is the Way, the Truth, and the Life..

Perhaps one of the largest stumblingblocks in Christendom.. that there are none good but one, and that is God.. and that ALL men is Adam share the same fate.. condemned in their Adamic nature which is according to the FLESH..

Flesh gives birth to FLESH

Spirit gives birth to SPIRIT

There ya go, every time you paraphrase Calvin you'll get it right.

 

[reba]

And let's not forget that by one man's offense (the first Adam) condemnation has come upon ALL MEN.. and that by the obedience and righteousness of one (the Last Adam) all men may be justified freely IN CHRIST.. because it's not our old nature or life which is justified before God, it's the life of Christ within us that is justified.. for He alone is the Way, the Truth, and the Life..

Perhaps one of the largest stumblingblocks in Christendom.. that there are none good but one, and that is God.. and that ALL men is Adam share the same fate.. condemned in their Adamic nature which is according to the FLESH..

Flesh gives birth to FLESH

Spirit gives birth to SPIRIT

Amen

 

[savedbygrace57]

It gives redemption cont



Christ gave Himself a ransom for many, thus effecting their redemption, these terms when used in reckoning the work of Christ are joined together, the ransom denoting the price paid [ Christ life or blood] and the redemption, the effect of the ransom, is the liberation out of a prison of a prisoner [ who had been shut up into unbelief and sin, spiritual death]. The ransom paid demands the prisoners to be set free from the captivity of Satan !

This [being set free] enables Two Things #1 The one being set free from the captivity of Satan has been granted repentance 2 tim 2:



25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Yes, The redemption in Christ Christ Jesus delivers from the snare and captivity of Satan to the acknowledging of the Truth.

You see those who do not obey or believe the Truth or contradict it as described in 2 thess 2:


11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Thats because they are in captivity to Satan, but if Christ died for them, they will experience redemption or liberation from Satan and His lies, thats what it means to have the Son set you free jn 8:

36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jesus is referring to the redemption in His blood which will set free . liberate and deliver them He shall die for..

#2. Redemption enables and effects one to believe, because unbelief is merely a symptom of being captive and blinded by the God of this world [Satan] or the prince of this world . 2 cor 4:

3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

see http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/vi...=004&verse=004

It is the work of Satan to keep unbelievers minds blinded and unable to see the Truth in the Gospel, but the redemption in Christ opens up [by regeneration] blind eyes lk 4:


18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

see how deliverance [redemption] is connected with recovering of sight for the blind ? Redemption therefore delivers from Satan blindness so we can see and believe. One must see the Son [spiritually] in order to believe as per Jn 6:


40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He is set forth in the Gospel, for paul says that Christ had been set before you to the galatians gal 3:

1O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes[Spiritual] Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

So redemption in Christ blood delivers from impenitence and unbelief !

 

[savedbygrace57]

His Death / Blood actually Redeems !



That Christ by His death, the ransom paid, actually redeems from Satan the strong man is set forth here Jer 31:

11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.

Does not that text remind us of what Jesus said here Matt 12:

28 but if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

And let it be noted who it is God ransoms and redeems " Jacob " the Chosen of God , Israel, the seed of Abraham.

Also lets look at Hos 13:

14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

The redemption Christ effects will deliver from the power of the Grave, which will be more evident at the Second Coming see Jn 5:28-29, but it also delivers from death, which is to include Spiritual death, because it delivers out from the one who had the power of death heb 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He delivers by His redeeming blood, those He died for from being dead in sin eph 2:


5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened[delivered] us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

All for whom Christ died and redeemed, must be quickened out of spiritual death and given life, spiritual life. So redemption secures for God's people regeneration, or Justification unto Life !
rom 5:

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Life here is that quickening we receive in eph 2 5.

So redemption is the payment of a ransom and the liberation of the ransomed, the giving of life from the dead, a quickening out of trespasses and sins. It must be added that its limited to the elect of God, His Chosen, His Israel, His Jacob out of mankind Lk 1:


68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

He redeems His Chosen, Those Chosen in their Kinsmen Redeemer, Christ Jesus before the world began !

So redemption gives Life from the dead..

 

[savedbygrace57]

More on Redemption !



In no stretch of the imagination are those going to hell the objects of Christ redeeming death and blood, for hell is like going into a prison 1 pet 3:19

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;.

The Redemption that Christ has effected by His Blood for all that He gave Himself a ransom for, He delivered them from the guilt and penalty [legally] of their sins which is called remission of sins Matt 26:28 which is also their Justification before God, for how can anyone whom God cannot lay a charge on not be Justified rom 8:


33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

This is also set forth in this scripture rom 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

This automatically concludes that all for whom Christ shed His blood are Justified before God based upon the redemption that is in His blood..

Not a charge of law breaking or its curse will come against them because of Christ redemption Gal 3:


13 Christ hath redeemed us [Believers/Chosen] from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

He also delivers by His redemption from the power of sin, that those Christ died for can serve Him lk 1:

74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

He redeems us by His blood from a vain manner of life, socially and religiously 1 pet 1:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

And finally there is an aspect of redemption that is about to come and be applied to the blood redeemed, to be redeemed from this place of sin, yes thats a deliverance dan 12:

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

This will be associated with our glorification, Jesus says of it in lk 21:

28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption deliverance draweth nigh.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Christ death secures our sanctification !

The death of Christ not only accomplishes and secures unto the elect their objective standing before God such as [ Justified, reconciled] by His blood, but He also secured our personal sanctification or conversion. Jesus said I sanctify myself [speaking of His High Priestly death] that they [ all for whom He died] may be sanctified Jn 17:

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that [in order that] they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Hence the cross of Christ enables all those He died for to Love and serve Him in newness of Life, beginning in this life and will serve him forever, thus eternal redemption heb 9:12 !

Lets look at some scriptures that bring this point out ! 2 cor 5:


15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

The all He died for here, was in order that they should live [spiritually] and henceforth live for Him.. This is also what is meant in lk 1:

71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Now as an effect of Christ death, for all He died, the power of sin is broken [an enemy] in ones Life, setting free the person into a newness of Life, by the Spirit regenerating them and renewing them Titus 3:5.

 

[savedbygrace57]

It effects personal sanctification and good works !

So the death of Christ was for the purpose of effecting for all Christ died their personal sanctification as stated here eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The word that is the greek word hina:

that, in order that, so that, to the end that


So vs 26 can read

26 in order that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Its stating a Divine Purpose..

So Christ giving His Life for His Church had meaning and purpose. God had chosen the Church in Him eph 1:4 to be Holy, and so His death accomplishes that..

It [His death] effects a life of Good works Titus 2:


14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Notice the same purpose word is used hina who gave Himself for us to the end that He might redeem us from all iniquity and purify unto Himsel a peculiar people zealous of good works. It makes His People zealous of good works.

The greek word is:

zēlōtēs:

) one burning with zeal, a zealot

2) used of God as jealous of any rival and sternly vindicating his control

3) most eagerly desirous of, zealous for, a thing

a) to acquire a thing, (zealous of)

b) to defend and uphold a thing, vehemently contending for a thing

He causes His People to defend and earnestly contened for the Faith Jude 1:

3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly[zealously] contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.​

 

[savedbygrace57]

It effects a Life unto Serving God !

Its a shame how many so called preachers of the Gospel, the Cross of Christ, are so in the dark as to what His Death or Cross Work accomplished for all those He died for. Many don't believe that His death accomplished more than a chance to get saved, depending on the sinners response. However the True accomplishment of His death, produces effects and results unto all them He died for, He redeemed by His blood ransom.

His death takes a worthless, and dead and vain life, religious or otherwise and converts it into a Life that serves the True and Living God.

Heb 9:

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

You see that ? This accomplishment is solely by the Blood Of Christ !

The word purge here is the same greek word for purify in titus 2:

14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These are effects of the blood of Christ, of Christ having offered or gave of Himself..

 

[Guap]

2 Peter 2:1 (ESV)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

So if they deny the Master (Jesus) which brings upon them destruction - how are they bought by him? Clearly these are people for whom Jesus died, who are headed for destruction.

 

[savedbygrace57]

2 Peter 2:1 (ESV)
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

So if they deny the Master (Jesus) which brings upon them destruction - how are they bought by him? Clearly these are people for whom Jesus died, who are headed for destruction.

It says nothing about being bought by the blood of Christ there . Thats talking about jews of the nation of Israel, who had been bought out of egypt..That nation was bought deut 32:

6Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

We know peter was quoting from deut32 because later he says in 2 pet 2:

13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

Which is also referenced in deut 32:5

They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

Peter's writings were primarily to jews, he was an apostle to the circumcision.

Peter says that these men had never been born again, for He says they were mere sows that had been washed [outwardly]

2 pet 2:

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Plus, if you understood what you read, peter called them False Teachers from the Jump, that should let you know He never considered them saved.

 

[Guap]

bought out of Egypt?
I think they were brought out of Egypt. where does SCRIPTURE ever say they were bought out of Egypt.

How about this
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

So as many as have gone astry, have turned aside (is that just the elect? Have only the elect turned aside?) is the same that the Lord laid our inquity on him.