The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[MarkT]

I wasn`t talking about the vessels made for wrath. I was taking about men in general.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mark:

I think it's because God so loved the world

He did, where His elect are in the world..

 

[savedbygrace57]

I wasn`t talking about the vessels made for wrath. I was taking about men in general.

Vessels of wrath are part of men in general. lol..

 

[Eventide]

According to the scriptures ALL in Adam (the flesh) are under condemnation and are vessels of wrath, or vessels fit for destruction... for if any believe not, the wrath of God abides on them...

Even AFTER a person is saved, their old nature according to the flesh is not justified.. it's still condemned and dying.. that's why there is no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST JESUS and who walk NOT after the FLESH but after the SPIRIT.

 

[Eventide]

People just DO NOT BELIEVE the word of God... it's that simple.. there are many people here who do not believe that they are condemned in their Adamic nature like the rest of us... nope.. they think that God actually chose THEM.. many believe that He chose them UNCONDITIONALLY even..

 

[savedbygrace57]

died for the Many ! -



There are many scriptures that indicate the restricted nature of Christ Death, and that is was not for all men without exception. One of the phrases that The Spirit employs is that of The Many !

Jesus spake and said in regards to His redemptive blood Matt 26:

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now this word Many, , though it signifies a large number:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G4183&t=KJV

Yet it also entails a restrictive significance, which limits its application to all men without exception. Yet due to its large quantity it signifies, it can be modified by the words all or every the adjective pas, and this is where the unlearned and unstable wrest scripture and distort scripture to their own preordained destruction or condemnation.

Now in light of this, We will set forth from scripture the use of the restrictive, but of wide scope, term Many, as it relates to objects of Christ Death. Going back first to the OT in prophesy, regarding Christ death Isa 53:

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Dan 9:


27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now I know this is a debatable with some, but I believe this is referring to Christ and the Shedding of His Blood for the New Covenant. The word for confirm here the word gabar and it means " To make Strong "

Now thats what Christ did in the New Covenant when He shed His Blood for the many Heb 9:

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

So, By His blood shed, He confirmed or gave force to the covenant for many..

The many here would be for the ingathering of the gentiles and the conversion of the elect jews post cross.

Now here are some NT references for the word Many in a context of Christ death or fruits of it. Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

So the adjective pas in 1 tim 2:6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The all here modifies the many of Matt 20:28, because the Many here is comprised of all different races and classes opposed to just ethnic jews. But its still restricted to many as Jesus stated.

Mk 10:45

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Heb 2:


9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The Many here actually clarifies who the every is in vs 9, He tasted death for the many or every son ! The word man is not in the original, it ends with pas !

Heb 9:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This scripture too, gives light to heb 2 9, for its the same objects of His death in both references, to taste death in Heb 2 9 is the same as being once offered here in heb 9 28, and its stated that He was offered for many, the restrictive term.

Rom 5:

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I believe any honest heart, made so by the Spirit of God, can see the Truth of what I am stating here, its straight from the scripture.. Christ did not die for all men without exception, that cannot be substantiated with scripture.

 

[Cher 1975]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the children of the devil Jn 8:44 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

He did so, just not everybody has conducted theirselves worthily in concern to what He has done and accomplished.

 

[savedbygrace57]

more on the Many !



Now again, the religionists does away with this specific restrictive Term " The Many" and forcefully and willfully twists the terms such as all, every, world, and whole world to mean every single individual as being the objects of Christ death, when again these words should be understood within the framework or definition of the restrictive term "The Many". Thats because a very Large number from out of every ethnic group around or throughout the world will comprise the restricted Many. Basically, the Many is restricted to the Seed of Abraham, which is comprised of all the people of Faith around and throughout the World, because Abraham was made a Father of Many Nations Gen 17:


5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

And Christ Identified with that People Heb 2:

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

And all that belong to Christ by Faith, regardless of race, nationality are the seed of Abraham gal 3:

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[MarkT]

Vessels of wrath are part of men in general. lol..

Jesus died for the remission of sin. I'm not sure what you mean when you say he didn't die for all men. Jesus even forgave those who crucified him. He taught us we should love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us - be perfect even as God is perfect, forgive those who trespass against us. So it's O.K. to say he died for all men. Don't give the haters of God reason to find fault with us.

All things are as God has made them according to his will. The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Pr. 16:4 RSV
`
Even so, try as much as possible to use the words Jesus gave us. The haters of God will die. That`s true. God has given them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. Even so, we must tell them that it is God`s decree that those who do such things deserve to die. Don`t judge and you won`t be judged.

 

[hisbeloved]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

eph 5:

25Husbands, love your wives, loved the ceven as Christ also hurch, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the children of the devil Jn 8:44 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

I am new here so I don't really know what you are getting at, or what your beliefs are ,but if you are debunking Universalism that say's all are auto-saved then I am behind you,

But if you are saying that it was never God's intention for all to be saved
then how do you explain the scripture that tells us, he is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentence, what does any and all mean to you? however we know that all will not be saved,but the scripture clearly indicates that is God's desire and is possible if they would only believe ,when God say's he is not willing that any should perish, this means it is not his will.

You do realize that sometimes in the scriptures,such as the ones you quoted, there are times that the writings are worded in a certain way when speaking to those who are already saved,like your quote here>>

Husbands love your wives, as Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it.

here he is speaking to the church,those who are already saved.

But there are other times that God speaks to mankind as a whole in order to show us his will for mankind, as in the scripture below.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.


both scriptures speak of the love that caused Christ to be given as a sacrifice
one is talking to and admonishing the already saved.

and the other is talking to all,and giving the invitation to all.

 

[MarkT]

died for the Many ! -



There are many scriptures that indicate the restricted nature of Christ Death, and that is was not for all men without exception. One of the phrases that The Spirit employs is that of The Many !

Jesus spake and said in regards to His redemptive blood Matt 26:

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now this word Many, , though it signifies a large number:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/...gs=G4183&t=KJV

Yet it also entails a restrictive significance, which limits its application to all men without exception. Yet due to its large quantity it signifies, it can be modified by the words all or every the adjective pas, and this is where the unlearned and unstable wrest scripture and distort scripture to their own preordained destruction or condemnation.

Now in light of this, We will set forth from scripture the use of the restrictive, but of wide scope, term Many, as it relates to objects of Christ Death. Going back first to the OT in prophesy, regarding Christ death Isa 53:

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Dan 9:


27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now I know this is a debatable with some, but I believe this is referring to Christ and the Shedding of His Blood for the New Covenant. The word for confirm here the word gabar and it means " To make Strong "

Now thats what Christ did in the New Covenant when He shed His Blood for the many Heb 9:

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

So, By His blood shed, He confirmed or gave force to the covenant for many..

The many here would be for the ingathering of the gentiles and the conversion of the elect jews post cross.

Now here are some NT references for the word Many in a context of Christ death or fruits of it. Matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

So the adjective pas in 1 tim 2:6

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The all here modifies the many of Matt 20:28, because the Many here is comprised of all different races and classes opposed to just ethnic jews. But its still restricted to many as Jesus stated.

Mk 10:45

For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Heb 2:


9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The Many here actually clarifies who the every is in vs 9, He tasted death for the many or every son ! The word man is not in the original, it ends with pas !

Heb 9:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This scripture too, gives light to heb 2 9, for its the same objects of His death in both references, to taste death in Heb 2 9 is the same as being once offered here in heb 9 28, and its stated that He was offered for many, the restrictive term.

Rom 5:

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I believe any honest heart, made so by the Spirit of God, can see the Truth of what I am stating here, its straight from the scripture.. Christ did not die for all men without exception, that cannot be substantiated with scripture.

I agree he died for his sheep. I agree, ‘whoever’ as in ’whoever believes’ doesn’t imply ‘all’, and ‘many’ doesn’t mean ‘all’. But his death was payment for the sins of the world. He was the door God created, the corner stone God laid, even though men rejected him. To say he died for all is not wrong, otherwise his rejection by the haters of God would be meaningless. If he didn’t die for them, then why should they believe in him? To reject him, he must be available to be rejected - so it can be seen who is of God and who is not.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mark:

But his death was payment for the sins of the world.

The world of His Elect..

 

[7he4uthor]

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
.

dare i ask a question ?

isnt this is indeed a strange analogy ?

shepards dont give their lives for their sheep
they eat them

why would a great teacher use an analogy that is contrary to reality
mothers will in rare cases give their lives for their young
but shepards dont do thi for their flocks

the sheep are sheered killed and mutton is had for dinner

 

[xounstaer]

going from the title ony here.

i believe it is the christian way indeed to say jesus died for all. even especially for each in an individual way.

it is a main point of what i heve had great struggles with, since i cant bare another person dieing for my own sin. or even the sin of another.

i sometimes compare the crusifixian to sacrifices made by other ancient folks. like throwing someone into a vulcano, or leaving behind in the cold mountains. so that their god would give more or better favor, in whatever way(s).

but when it comes down to facts..
every human being once dies is a way how i often try to talk it' right lately.
i shed many tears from child of on about jesus and what happened(serious).
if i had not seen and lived or experienced the things i did as compensation. i'd cut of my band with christianity. but facts remain (avatar for one).

it was such a big deal to me that i went into psychose with the followin:

" take upon the history with god" , refering to jesus christs crusifiction.
" shine a light upon the truth"

and i have gotten answers/compensation. to me it is a fact then also jesus is risen and back, but i am Stein.

sometimes/lately i still stugle with it espacially when it comes in this way. Jesus Christ died especially for me'. it is like a path/remise situation which i seem to must accept.

it remains honestly a fact that if jesus wasnt crusified back then. i wouldnt have been gazing at a star (in the nightsky) for 3 days long. and i wouldnt have seen the copper snake'..just like nasa (avatar). and i wouldnt have had the psychosomatic such as feeling holes in my hands and last even feet.

shortly said i owe most of what's important to me to jesus. and basicly or especially the way of crusifiction and all he went through for him to last untill me.

(listening to: 'the rise and fall', with tears in my eyes. i will not reply on this again) :'-(

 

[savedbygrace57]

xou:

i believe it is the christian way indeed to say jesus died for all.

Actually thats the non Christian way, its a lie ! I have been posting much to prove that.

 

[hisbeloved]

xou:



Actually thats the non Christian way, its a lie ! I have been posting much to prove that.

If you would read post #1229 you might quit saying that.;)
either way,I luv ya sista.

 

[Pizzaguy]

i believe it is the christian way indeed to say jesus died for all. even especially for each in an individual way.

He did. He "opened the door" so to speak for us all, no longer do we rely on animal sacrifices or a priest to make a way for us. That is why the veil at the temple was torn as he died.

He died for all of us, it is up to us, individually, to accept His gift of salvation.
A gift not received does us no good.

 

[Sam21]

For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life,John 3:16. Friend it is a fearful thing to openly contradict God,if Jesus said that God gave His Son for the world and you say God did not give His Son for the world but just for a select few,then you are openly contradicting God,is that wise?

 

[savedbygrace57]

sam:

For God so loved the WORLD

Yes the world of His Elect..of jew and gentile !

 

[savedbygrace57]

hisbeloved:

But if you are saying that it was never God's intention for all to be saved

Not all without exception, but all His chosen, and they will all be saved, no question about it..and I am a Man..