The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Eventide]

sam: Yes the world of His Elect..of jew and gentile !

So we know that the Holy Spirit of God did communicate ELECTION in various ways throughout the scriptures, so my question to you would be WHY didn't the Holy Spirit use the word ELECT in John 3:16 or in other passages where He used the word WORLD..?

Do you think that He is incapable of saying "For God so loved the ELECT" rather than God so loved the WORLD ?

Why must YOU change what the word of God actually says in order to suit your beliefs ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Made like unto His Brethren !

Heb 2:17

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

This scripture if understood aright, teaches against the false Ideal that Christ died for all men without exception.

Yes, He was made like unto His Brethren. What Brethren ? Rom 8:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The predestinated ones. He was their brother, before He was made like unto them in His incarnation, and so they were His brethren before He died for them in the flesh. Many of them did not even exist yet at that time, save only in the Mind and Purpose of God. Now we are not talking about his brethren according to the flesh, or ethnicity, or biologically, for many of the biological jews did not even have God as their Father as per Jn 8:42

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

But all those by Eternal Purpose who God predestined to be conformed to His Image, that He may be the First Born of many Brethren, even all the Children of Promise, not of the jews only, but also the gentile..

He was made like unto them, and them only, that He might be a merciful High Priest to them, and them only, and that He might make reconciliation for their sins [The People] and theirs only..

 

[Eventide]

The predestinated ones. He was their brother, before He was made like unto them in His incarnation, and so they were His brethren before He died for them in the flesh. ..

Learned something new about Calvinism today... that they believe that they were Christ's brethren before He died for the sin of the world..

Amazing isn't it... how self exalting this doctrine can be.. ?

 

[Oats]

in the sense of eternity I would agree with the op, there is a such thing as the elect...and all moments being present to God he foreknew what would happen, not because he made them happen that way, but because his choices are eternal just as he is, and our choices are temporal just as we are...shouldn't the causes and effect follow the same...

 

[Eventide]

in the sense of eternity I would agree with the op, there is a such thing as the elect...and all moments being present to God he foreknew what would happen, not because he made them happen that way, but because his choices are eternal just as he is, and our choices are temporal just as we are...shouldn't the causes and effect follow the same...

Did you ever consider WHY they are the elect... ie, would you lean toward it being unconditional (ie, unconditional election) or would you think that it's more conditional.. ie, because of believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit..

 

[savedbygrace57]

oats:

and all moments being present to God he foreknew what would happen

Of course, He determined that they happened, for they could not have happened if He did not create them knowing they would happen..

 

[MarkT]

mark:



The world of His Elect..

In effect he died for whoever should believe in him. So what's your point?

I also disagree with your statement that he died for his shepherds only - that would be the elect, those chosen by God to shepherd the sheep. For example, Jesus charged Peter to tend his sheep.

 

[MarkT]

1 John 2:2 RSV
and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[savedbygrace57]

1 John 2:2 RSV
and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Thats the elect world,both jew and gentile..

 

[savedbygrace57]

mark:

In effect he died for whoever should believe in him. So what's your point?

He died for His elect or His Sheep, and so they will believe..Jn 10:

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[MarkT]

Thats the elect world,both jew and gentile..

I think we can say Jesus was the expiation for the sins of the whole world if we are speaking of sin per se. Just because not all men believe, it doesn't change the fact that he died for the remission of sin.

You say he died for his sheep. You're right too. We also know that there are men who are not of God who lead many astray. This might lead you to conclude that he didn't die for all men without exception. O.K. He didn't die for the false teachers and the false prophets. He didn't die for the enemy. He came to destroy the enemy.

But who is saying Jesus died for all men without exception in that sense? Are you creating a strawman to knock it down?

It remains his death was for the remission of sin. So if we're speaking of his death per se and the remission of sin, the saying is, 'the sow is washed and returns to the mud', so, in effect, the ones who departed from the word of God were washed before they returned to the mud. Which means they were forgiven. So Jesus even forgave them. But to say he died for them wouldn't be true. He did die for his sheep.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mark:

I think we can say Jesus was the expiation for the sins of the whole world if we are speaking of sin per se.

Yes the elect world, that worlds sins have been put away. God never imputed the elect world with their Trespasses 2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Eventide]

mark:

God never imputed the elect world with their Trespasses 2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This is what happens when condemned men are exalted to the elect.. but we all know that the Lord Jesus Christ is His elect, the One in whom He delights.. the one who has inherited all things of His Father... the one who alone is good.. the Lord Jesus Christ..

As if the Holy Spirit couldn't have simply written the elect, rather than the world.. lol... but of course we need to elitest Calvinists to tell us that the world doesn't mean the world, it means the elect... obviously God couldn't get that simple message across.

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

As if the Holy Spirit couldn't have simply written the elect, rather than the world

As if the Holy Spirit couldn't simply have written "everyone in the world without exception" if He meant that..

 

[Eventide]

even:



As if the Holy Spirit couldn't simply have written "everyone in the world without exception" if He meant that..

WOW... you really got me on that one SBG... but wait, He did say WORLD and not ELECT right... and evidently that means nothing to you ?

LOL seriously... you've got to be kidding me..

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

He did say WORLD and not ELECT right

Yes, and He didnt say everyone without exception right ?

 

[MarkT]

mark:



Yes the elect world, that worlds sins have been put away. God never imputed the elect world with their Trespasses 2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

In the same letter Paul says we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. God reconciled us and he gave us the ministry of reconciliation to go out into the world and preach the kingdom.

I know what you mean by the elect world. You mean his kingdom. I agree there's no sin in Christ. There's no sin in the world to come, and even now, there is no sin in his kingdom. The goal is the kingdom.

But the world John spoke of and the world Paul spoke of in your quote is the world we live in. But you're confusing the issue. At least for me. What is the issue?

All I'm saying is the blood shed was effective for the remission of sin. It even worked on the ones destined for destruction.

That Jesus died for his sheep is indisputable. That the world doesn't know him is also indisputable.

 

[MarkT]

Savedbygrace

Don't worry about what other men say about you. I like your spirit.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mark:

But the world John spoke of and the world Paul spoke of in your quote is the world we live in.

Well, this is the world the elect live in !

In the same letter Paul says we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us.

The appeal was being made by the apostle paul and his associate ministers unto a reconciled already people in Corinth vs 18 says:

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Paul had been given notice by Christ that He had a people in that city according to acts 18:


9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:
10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

And the world that Paul was addressing in vs 19 were those who never had their trespasses laid to their Charge. So you need to be careful with your remarks..eveyone does not fit that category, many do have their sins counting against them..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Savedbygrace

Don't worry about what other men say about you. I like your spirit.

I don't worry about such things, I am doing the work of the Lord,all that comes with the territory..