The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[savedbygrace57]

mark:

All I'm saying is the blood shed was effective for the remission of sin. It even worked on the ones destined for destruction.

Your statement here is half right and half false, that makes the whole statement false. Christ blood, not one drop was for those destined for destruction..All of it was shed for those who were destined for Glory..

 

[Sam21]

Where you are missing it is that no one is an elect until after the new birth,having sins forgiven and been given the indwelling Spirit,until then you are just a plain on hell bent sinner. If you are headed for hell before conversion, then by definition you are not an elect. The bible is clear,elect always refers to those who have been born of the Spirit at conversion, if you call a sinner not born again an elect then you are contradicting the word of God(that ususally does not stop you though).

 

[Eventide]

even:



Yes, and He didnt say everyone without exception right ?

No, and nobody said that he did.. so if the Holy Spirit didn't say the elect, then WHY DO YOU say it's the elect..?

 

[savedbygrace57]

even:

No, and nobody said that he did..

Ok then. The world and what it means is left up to context. Now since in the context of 2 cor 5 19 the world is said not to have had it's trespasses charged unto them. 2 cor 5:


19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now we know that particular cannot apply to everyone in the world without exception, else no one would punished for sin.

But we know that God did not and will not impute sin to His elect rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

So the world in 2 cor 5 19 is the elect world of which God will not lay charges against, because the charges were laid on Christ, He died and He was made sin for them vs 21 of 2 cor 5

 

[Eventide]

even:



Ok then. The world and what it means is left up to context. Now since in the context of 2 cor 5 19 the world is said not to have had it's trespasses charged unto them. 2 cor 5:


19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now we know that particular cannot apply to everyone in the world without exception, else no one would punished for sin.

But we know that God did not and will not impute sin to His elect rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

So the world in 2 cor 5 19 is the elect world of which God will not lay charges against, because the charges were laid on Christ, He died and He was made sin for them vs 21 of 2 cor 5

OK, so now we're back to WHY DIDN'T THE HOLY SPIRIT just say elect instead of the world.. and why do YOU SAY the elect when the Holy Spirit says the world.. ?

Do you know better than He does ?

 

[Sam21]

even:



Ok then. The world and what it means is left up to context. Now since in the context of 2 cor 5 19 the world is said not to have had it's trespasses charged unto them. 2 cor 5:


19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now we know that particular cannot apply to everyone in the world without exception, else no one would punished for sin.

But we know that God did not and will not impute sin to His elect rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

So the world in 2 cor 5 19 is the elect world of which God will not lay charges against, because the charges were laid on Christ, He died and He was made sin for them vs 21 of 2 cor 5

the methods you are using to arrive at the conclusions you desire are called dishonest manipulation, hey, if that is the way you want to go that is your choice,I would not use the bible in that way for all the gold in South Africa...I fear God way too much for that.

 

[Oats]

Did you ever consider WHY they are the elect... ie, would you lean toward it being unconditional (ie, unconditional election) or would you think that it's more conditional.. ie, because of believing the truth and sanctification of the Spirit..

because of belief, after that God immediately takes over, in the sense of temporariness that is

 

[savedbygrace57]

sam:

the methods you are using to arrive at the conclusions you desire are called dishonest manipulation,

Call it what you will, but its the Truth of God of which you are being held accountable for..

 

[Sam21]

sam:



Call it what you will, but its the Truth of God of which you are being held accountable for..

Iam not the one adding "elect" to John 3:16, you are.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Iam not the one adding "elect" to John 3:16, you are.

Thats what John 3 16 means, The elect world, you will see at the Judgment.

 

[Alabaster]

Thats what John 3 16 means, The elect world, you will see at the Judgment.

That is inane. The world is the WORLD--ALL HUMANITY.

 

[Stormcrow]

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

Let's look at this another way:

Can all without exception be His sheep? Yes.

Can all without exception be His church? Yes.

Can all without exception be His people? Yes!

{12} But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, John 1:12 (NASB)

{16} "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16 (NASB)

{46} "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. John 12:46 (NASB)

{21} 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' Acts 2:21 (NASB)

{43} "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Acts 10:43 (NASB)

{11} For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." Romans 10:11 (NASB)

{1} Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 1 John 5:1 (NASB)

{17} And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17 (KJV)

It's not our job to decide who gets to be in the lifeboat. It's our job to extend our hands to those in the water.

End of discussion.

 

[Eventide]

because of belief, after that God immediately takes over, in the sense of temporariness that is

so then it was conditional upon you believing the truth... interesting... that's exactly what the bible teaches..

 

[Sam21]

Let's look at this another way:

Can all without exception be His sheep? Yes.

Can all without exception be His church? Yes.

Can all without exception be His people? Yes!

{12} But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, John 1:12 (NASB)

{16} "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16 (NASB)

{46} "I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. John 12:46 (NASB)

{21} 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' Acts 2:21 (NASB)

{43} "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Acts 10:43 (NASB)

{11} For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." Romans 10:11 (NASB)

{1} Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 1 John 5:1 (NASB)

{17} And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17 (KJV)

It's not our job to decide who gets to be in the lifeboat. It's our job to extend our hands to those in the water.

End of discussion.

Excellent post,specially that last line.

 

[MarkT]

mark:



Your statement here is half right and half false, that makes the whole statement false. Christ blood, not one drop was for those destined for destruction..All of it was shed for those who were destined for Glory..

No. Jesus forgave them. There was no injustice on God's part.

The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. Romans 6:10 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 1 Peter 3:18

That's why the wrath of God is upon them - because they turned away from the truth, even rejecting the only Son of God. Peter said it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness, than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandments delivered to them.' 2 Peter 2:21

However, the reason Jesus was sent was to find his sheep and the purpose of the sacrifice was to free us of sin and death - to pay our debt to God, to set us free, to give us life. So in effect it was to make us his kingdom. Once the sacrifice is made, the debt is paid. We're free. We're out of prison. He paid our debt, once for all. And not only our debt but the debt of the whole world. There's no injustice on God's part. Now you see why it is so infuriating that people reject the one who died for them and hate him. I don't know if you can even imagine the wrath of God that is being stored up.

So purposewise, meaning God planned it from the beginning, you're right, Christ died for his sheep. The sheep are foreknown. They are called. They believe because it is God's will and they are saved because it is God's will.

 

[savedbygrace57]

mark:

No. Jesus forgave them.

No He didnt. People are going to hell that Jesus did not die for. Matt 7:

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Matt 25:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[savedbygrace57]

storm:

Can all without exception be His sheep? Yes.

Uh No..Jn 10:

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[Stormcrow]

storm:



Uh No..Jn 10:

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

I'm perfectly comfortable letting Christ call out the sheep and the goats. I wouldn't dream of creating a doctrine that says "some aren't going to be saved, so why bother?" which is where the doctrine you're professing has gone before (Baptist leaders in America when deciding whether to send Adoniram Judson as a missionary to Burma, for instance, said this very thing. Look it up.)

He knew the hearts of the people to whom He was speaking. You don't. I don't. That's all.

And yes, He even died for those who hated and crucified them, otherwise why this prayer from the cross:

{34} Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Luke 23:34 (KJV)

John 3:16: it's not just a poster a football games.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Exactly who did Jesus Christ die for ? Was it for every person to ever live, or did died only for the ones the Father had Chosen to save ? Was His mission for coming to make Salvation a possibility for everyone, ore was it to actually guarantee the Salvation of the Elect by His death Rom 8:33-34.

This matter of the extent of Christ death is of momentous importance, to the point of even determining if we are in a saved or lost condition; for it is linked up with what Christ actually did when He died and rose again. Scripture is more than clear that Christ died for all that shall believe in Him Jn 17:20, those who the Father Chose and whom the Holy Spirit brings to Faith or the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13. This understanding of Christ only have died for the elect can be called Victorious Atonement or Redemption. The Whole Godhead is involved in the Salvation of the Elect, the Three Beings in the Trinity having convened in the Counsel of the Everlasting Covenant Heb 13:20, Each Being having a very special role. Understanding this will give evidence of a Victorious Atonement and to give God all the Glory for Salvation, to whom alone it is due.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Now in this counsel, God the Father is the Primary Being who purposed Redemption, for it was He who chose who would be saved and redeemded Eph 1:3-11, He foreordained His Son 1 Pet 1:20; Rev 13:8; in time sent Him into the world 1 Jn 4:14, and in doing so, the Father punished Christ for the sins of all those He loved and had chosen Isa 53:6,8,10 and rasised Him from the dead acts 3:26; Rom 10:9, and finally exalted Him to His right hand, and all Acts 2:33;5:31. All this was from Purposed by the Father from Eternity..