The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[savedbygrace57]

Dear friend, Did Christ die for the whole world, for all people? YES. I John 2:2 ESV: "He is the propitiation [expiation] for our sins, and not our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world". The whole world. Don't twist the Scriptures, dear Calvinist. Whole means whole, means all people in the whole world.

In Erie PA Scott Harrington​

The whole world means not only jews but also gentiles..All those who have had their sins propitiated, God has no reason to punish them for sin, because His Justice has been satisfied once and for all regarding them..

Those going into the lake of fire Matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Their sins were not propitiated for in 1 jn 2 2..sorry, you have been deceived..

 

[Eventide]

Sometimes it's best to just let the 'elect' ones believe what they want... that God chose them, and that they didn't need to do anything in order to be saved.. that Christ only died for them and their 'elect' crowd.. etc etc etc...

See how damaging election can be when it's not centered on the Lord Jesus Christ and upon Him alone ?

 

[francisdesales]

fran:



Yes, all of the many were made righteous..The scripture is clear that He died for many matt 20:

28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

There you go again. Scripture-verse-hopping. Why don't you answer post #770?

Pizza guy makes a good point. For many will THINK they "knew the Lord". Mat 7:21.

Regards

 

[Pizzaguy]

There you go again. Scripture-verse-hopping. Why don't you answer post #770?

Pizza guy makes a good point. For many will THINK they "knew the Lord". Mat 7:21.

Regards

Thank you - and in post 778, I really was trying to give advice.
Sometimes, many of us or ALL of us, forget that our words mean something. Others are watching (the saved and unsaved) and that our words can influence someone else - for bad as well as good.

But there ARE verses that say that we will be made accountable for our words. This is, to me, a VERY scary thought. And yet, even I forget it sometimes.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

I know that this is just an internet message board, but I think you come dangerously close to "tempting" God with these kind of statements.

Ever wonder if He might want to use your words against you someday? "Hey, so, my Son didn't die for all? Fine - he didn't die for YOU. Depart from me..."

No, I'd be very careful here. Always remember that what you type here is remembered - somewhere.

I am just glad that the ALL that Jesus died for included me (and of course everyone else that ever lived on planet Earth)

 

[savedbygrace57]

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

Jn 12 :

32And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

The Death of Christ will draw all unto Him, the word men is not in the original, and so does not mean all men as individuals without exception, but all that the Father giveth Him as per

Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

All races of men will believe in Him because of His being Lifted up.

Now Jesus is saying all for whom He is lifted up for and behalf of, they will come to believe in Him.

The lifting up effects the believing in Him. Lets look at Jn 3:



14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The lifting up of the serpent was for them God had determined that would not die, but should live if and when they were bitten..

Here is the background story numbers 21:

5And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.


6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.



9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

You see, God had already destroyed those whom He did not want to Live earlier vs

6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Those whom He determined to live, He caused them to have the fear of death ! They would be bitten and look to the serpent to live..but they had to first be spared of death themselves, of which God did..​

 

[francisdesales]

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ ​

Why are you changing the subject again?
​

 

[Pizzaguy]

Ok, now that it was brought up again, can someone give me the definition of efficacious as it is used in this thread?

The dictionary says,
"marked by qualities giving the power to produce an intended effect"
and...

• Efficacy is the capacity to produce an effect. It is used to mean different specific things in different fields.

So, how are you guys using the word? Should I be reading something else into it?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Ok, now that it was brought up again, can someone give me the definition of efficacious as it is used in this thread?

The dictionary says,
"marked by qualities giving the power to produce an intended effect"
and...

• Efficacy is the capacity to produce an effect. It is used to mean different specific things in different fields.

So, how are you guys using the word? Should I be reading something else into it?

Thats what it means..

 

[Pizzaguy]

1) "marked by qualities giving the power to produce an intended effect"
and...

2) Efficacy is the capacity to produce an effect. It is used to mean different specific things in different fields.

Thats what it means..

1 or 2? And are you using "It is used to mean different specific things in different fields" in your answer?

What I am trying to get you to do is simple: Define the term as you are using it.

 

[Scotth1960]

I am just glad that the ALL that Jesus died for included me (and of course everyone else that ever lived on planet Earth)

Dear Proverbs 3/5, Scripture says, in Romans I believe, "God is no respecter of persons". He treats everybody the same. He wants all to be saved (2 Pet. 3:9), and He died to protitiate the sins of all, of the whole world (1 John 2:2). That includes Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike. The Calvinists just misunderstand and twist the Scriptures, and they are quite stubborn about their error. God is not to be blamed for the unbelief of men. People are given a choice, and are not forced to choose Christ by some irresistible grace. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Bubba]

The ones that specify who He died for i.e the many matt 20:28

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;

i.e sheep Jn 10:11

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

i.e the church eph 5:25

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

None of these mean all of humanity without exception, but a certain portion of mankind..

And because the sheep, the many, the church can have more than one, they can all be qualified by the word all or every as in all the sheep, or all the members of the church or body of Christ..

But to go beyond that is only assumption and has no biblical support.

And on top of that, all for whom Christ died, by His death they are made righteous rom 5:


19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So if one is never made righteous, Christ did not die for them..

SBG,
This is a interesting thought about this word "many" in respect to the Jewish mind set (Romans 5:19).
Bubba

Joachim Jeremias, ...in Greek writing polloi (many) is exclusive, referring to the many or the majority as opposed to all, where as in Hebrew and Jewish Greek literature polloi is inclusive meaning the many who cannot be counted, the great multitude, indeed. He draws special attention to Isaiah 52:13-53:12, where many or the many occurs 5 times, apparently meaning ALL. Joachim goes on to point out the many in the expression the many died in verse 15, means the same as death come to all men in Romans 5:12.

 

[savedbygrace57]

bubba

SBG,
This is a interesting thought about this word "many" in respect to the Jewish mind set (Romans 5:19).

Has nothing to do with that..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jn 12 32 continued !



Jesus stated in this verse :

Jn 12:


32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Christ Lifting up promises to draw all to Him, and He is in Glory, So Christ death and resurrection ensures that all He died for, come to Him in Glory Jn 17:


24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

There coming to Glory with Him is part of the bigger picture of His Glory He is rewarded with after His sufferings and death..

lk 24:46 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Heb 12:

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

It was Joy before Him, because through His death and resurrection He brings many Sons to Glory..

Heb 2:

10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

This is the end and result of His Being Lifted up Jn 12 32..

 

[Bubba]

bubba



Has nothing to do with that..

I will answer like you do; yes it does

 

[savedbygrace57]

I will answer like you do; yes it does

No it does not, but believe what you will..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

1 pet 2:

24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

We know that Christ did not die for all men without exception, because by His death [stripes] He heals all those He bare their sins, in order that they should live unto righteousness..

As stated another way by Paul in rom 5:19b

so by the obedience [stripes] of one[Jesus Christ] shall many be made righteous.

If one does not live unto God and righteousness, then Christ did not die for them..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Scriptures that show the efficaciousness of the death of Christ !

Jn 12 :

32And I, if I be lifted up [Speaking of His death] from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

In this scripture when Christ says He will draw all to Himself after having been lifted up [His death on the cross], He is speaking about the beginning of His Millennial Reign from His Throne of Glory..

After His suffering and dying, He must enter into His Glory lk 24:26

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Jesus entered into His Mediatorial Glory, His Throne of Glory after having paid the redeeming price for the sins of all of God's elect.

On this Throne of Glory He mediates His saving benefits to all who are to partake of His Kingdom Isa 9:



6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This is Jesus building His Church, while ruling on the Throne of David, to order it and establish it..

Thats why peter says that He added to the church [or His Kingdom] acts 2:47

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Thats why Isa says that the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His Hand Isa 53:

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Believers reign with Him as they are instruments in His hand to preach the gospel to draw in the other members of His Church or Kingdom, particularly was this True of the Apostles and Paul..

 

[ahigherway]

Ahaaaaa! Now we get to what you REALLY wanna talk about savedbygrace57. Ok buddy. I'm a fairly new Christian. I'll come along on this ride with you. I'm open minded. Maybe your right Let's see now...my obvious answers would be:

1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all
men through him might believe.​

All men.​

13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.​

All that believe. Any are capable of hearing the Gospel and believing. So thats all men. (those that are unable to know the Gospel due to disability or age, God knows the heart and will treat accordingly)​

3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:​

Unto ALL men. All who believe.​

2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​

Jesus seems to think that ALL men can be saved. Looks like the deciding factor is knowledge of the truth. The Gospel.​

Thats just a few verses I found real quick. I'm sure theres more. I think that would count as scriptural evidence.
​

Ok so.....The option to be His sheep is open to all men. Quite clearly the deciding factor is knowledge of the truth. The Gospel message. No? All men can make the choice to hear the Gospel and have faith.



Again....all men have the option to join the Church. It's a matter of coming to the faith.



No but....All men CAN be IF they hear the Gospel and believe. Jesus died for all men to have the OPPORTUNITY to be saved.

The Apostle Paul was a child of the devil. He came good didn't he?



No...because there is scriptural evidence for it. And its totally logical. Why wouldn't He die for all men?

Again...I'm all ears on your theory. Lets have a rebuttal on that then we can get going.

Doc.

Beautiful post!!
To GOD be the glory!!

Blessings!
brian

 

[Eventide]

But then how would the Calvinists talk about how they got the special irresistable call and that God chose them because they're the elect... if Christ died for all men.. ?

that's no fun for a Calvinist.. all men being called the same way and that they're no different than anyone else... I don't believe that the Calvinists could embrace something so simple and scriptural..

Calvinists need to talk about how THEY are the ELECT, how that God chose THEM, how that their calling was special and effectual whereas God only calls others in a 'general' way.. lol..