The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Elijah674]

That IS a verse in the Bible, but so is this very familiar one:



It is very simple, He died for all - and left the decision to accept His gift up to the individual.

Very well said! So tell these ones that Christ's Eternal Plan (Rev. 14:6) of Salvation has been CONDITIONAL from day one on. You all are lost, but I will save any or all on the condition of you following My plan.

He died for the ones that He forknew would be obedient only! Anything more sounds unsound, or presumptous. Something like being against His own Word of Titus 3:9-11 huh?

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

A Union when Christ died !


Eph 5:25-32


25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

If understood properly, Paul is stating that Christ was in Union, was One with His Church, when He died or gave Himself for Her, just as a Husband is One and in Union with His wife. Paul points that out in vs 32, it was a Mystery, and a Mystery of the Gospel See Eph 6:19

Now when eve Transgressed, was she not already one with Adam ? If so, Christ was also One with His Church when He gave Himself for Her, or else there is no corresponding analogy in the one to the other, but Paul indicates that it was. If Christ gave Himself for the Church vs 25, His betrothed Bride, then evidently it was His Church before He gave Himself for it, which means He was in Union with sinners before He died for them, those sinners that composed His Church. Now ask yourself this question, were all sinners in the world without exception composed of His Church ? No..

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 17:9


John 17:9

9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

In John 17:9 The Lord Jesus Christ in His Mediatoral Prayer, makes Intercession, not for everyone without exception, but only for those given to Him see Jn 6:37 also, which points back to His Sheep Jn 10:29

29My Father, which gave them[The Sheep] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

In addition such statements as Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

Jn 17:2

2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

All these prove without a shadow of doubt the Limited intention of Christ's Death, and the limited objects of His Love !

 

[savedbygrace57]

John 3:16 ; Eph 5:25

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eph 5:25


25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Folks the World that God Loved and Gave His Son for, is the Church that Christ Loved and gave Himself for !

Lets do a word study here. The word for world is the greek word kosmos and means:

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

Notice, that the world is any aggregate or general collection of particulars of ANY SORT !

We cannot ignore these definition.

Now what is this word aggregate mean ? Our english dictionary says:

formed by the conjunction or collection of particulars into a whole mass or sum; total; combined


a sum, mass, or assemblage of particulars; a total or gross amount:

Now notice the word assemblage as in assemblage of particulars. The word means:

a group of persons or things gathered or collected; an assembly; collection; aggregate.

Now I derive at this from a simple study of the word world !

Now lets look at the word Church in Eph 5:25. It is the greek word ekklēsia and means:

a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting


the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

The Church is an assemblage ! And an Assemblage as we see is also a World !

So the World of Jn 3:16 that God so Loved, was none other than the Church that Christ Loved and gave Himself fr !

The total collection and gathering of the sum total of all the Sheep as Jn 10:16

16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


Yes, this One Fold of Sheep is the World God so loved !

So the word world does not have to mean everyone without exception !

The assembly of the Israelites alone technically by definition is a World ! The Assembly of the Spiritual Israelites, the Israel of God is a World !

 

[Denique Coelum]

It isn't a myth that Jesus died for all. This beautiful verse of Scripture encapsulates the truth of the universality of the offer of salvation:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal." John 3 v 16 (J.N.D.)

It is true that not all will accept Christ as their Saviour. Nonetheless, the offer is made to all.

There is of course, the precious truth of predestination, or as others call it, election. Those who are to believe are pre-chosen in past eternity by God. Nonetheless, as C.H. Macintosh outlines so affectingly in his paper Pages for the Anxious: Being the Glad Tidings and the Ministry of Reconciliation, predestination is not the subject of the gospel. The evangelist should not bring this doctrine into their presentation of the glad tidings, they should only present the glad tidings.

The thought of 'election' or 'predestination' shouldn't be a barrier to what Macintosh calls 'the anxious inquirer'. If God awakens a person's soul, stirring them up to an awareness of their sinnership, Christ died for them, the provision is made for them to shelter under the blood.

Christ died for all, this is the wonderful truth of the glad tidings.

 

[savedbygrace57]

dc

It isn't a myth that Jesus died for all

It is a myth, and no He did not die for all without exception..

 

[Denique Coelum]

dc



It is a myth, and no He did not die for all without exception..

Do you say that because of the truth of predestination?

 

[OriginalApostolicDoctrine]

When Jesus Died, he died once for all, to abolish the death sentence that the First Adam placed upon us. 1Co 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. "

2Co 5:14-15
(14) For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
(15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1Ti 2:5-6
(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Heb 10:9-10
(9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I will leave you to consider this verse.
Jas 3:11
(11) Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

Sweet water and bitter water do not come from the same fountain. Even a drop of bitter water can not exist, neither can one lie exist in the Bible. For a lie is a contradiction of the truth and of scriptures. So if you find yourself with two scriptures that appear to contradict each other remember this. Either the Scripture is wrong.... or what you believe it to mean is wrong.

Ecc 1:18
(18) " For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow."

 

[HisSheep]

It isn't a myth that Jesus died for all. This beautiful verse of Scripture encapsulates the truth of the universality of the offer of salvation:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal." John 3 v 16 (J.N.D.)

It is true that not all will accept Christ as their Saviour. Nonetheless, the offer is made to all.

There is of course, the precious truth of predestination, or as others call it, election. Those who are to believe are pre-chosen in past eternity by God. Nonetheless, as C.H. Macintosh outlines so affectingly in his paper Pages for the Anxious: Being the Glad Tidings and the Ministry of Reconciliation, predestination is not the subject of the gospel. The evangelist should not bring this doctrine into their presentation of the glad tidings, they should only present the glad tidings.

The thought of 'election' or 'predestination' shouldn't be a barrier to what Macintosh calls 'the anxious inquirer'. If God awakens a person's soul, stirring them up to an awareness of their sinnership, Christ died for them, the provision is made for them to shelter under the blood.

Christ died for all, this is the wonderful truth of the glad tidings.

You put things very well, and I agree especially that the evengelical call should not include predestination. That is a truth that is learned by those who already believe.

However. Jesus died only for the elect. As He put it:

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (John 10:15)

And we know well that Jesus knew each of His sheep from the beginning.

I personally know from my own salvation experience that I had nothing to do with my justification.

God revealed Himself to me, and I heard His voice. Just like it says.

There was a point at which I simply COULD not deny it. I literally didn't have the power (the will, if you will) to disbelieve.

I praise Him for it. If He hadn't relentlessly persued me, I'd still be lost today.

-HisSheep

 

[savedbygrace57]

hissh

You put things very well, and I agree especially that the evengelical call
should not include predestination.

I disagree, predestination of Christ's Death for the elect is a foundational Truth of the Gospel, Peter preached it in his very first sermon Acts 2:23


23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Christ was slain in the Purpose of God from the foundation Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He was slain for those person's whose names were written in the book of life !

His Predestinated death is the foundation for the Gospel !

 

[HisSheep]

I disagree, predestination of Christ's Death for the elect is a foundational Truth of the Gospel, Peter preached it in his very first sermon Acts 2:23

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Christ was slain in the Purpose of God from the foundation Rev 13:8

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

He was slain for those person's whose names were written in the book of life !

His Predestinated death is the foundation for the Gospel !

SBG57, I typically agree with you on practically everything, just for the record. But Peter is NOT, in this verse, (Acts 2:23) referring to the predestination of the SAINTS. Peter is referring to the fact that God the father predestined Christ to be delivered… This is a thread about election… and more specifically about limited atonement. The thread is not about whether or not God predestined Christ to be delivered unto death. Your post blurs this distinction.

I know that it is a fine distinction. But in the words of R.C Sproul, “it is the prerogative of the theologian to make fine distinctions.â€

It is perfectly acceptable to preach to non-believers that God predestinated Christ to be born, killed and raised. (that’s what Acts 2:23 says) But it is not modeled anywhere in the bible that a non believer should be told, “Have you considered that you may or may not have been chosen?†Non-believers should be told “Repent, and be saved!†As believers, we understand that they either will or will not hear this command as God wills.

Once we believe, then it is important to understand that we are not responsible for our belief. Nor are we responsible for the failure of others to hear OUR call to them to repent. In other words: we are not responsible to “save†our neighbors. We are only to deliver the message and God does the saving as (and if) He wills. Paris Reidhead illustrates this truth beautifully in his excellent sermon, “Ten shekels and a shirtâ€. Therein, he describes his frustration when, as a missionary, he tried to convert a group of African natives without success. He blamed himself and bore the grief very, very heavily, until God gave him the insight that is was not by his own power that would convert them, but God’s. If they were not going to receive the news with gladness, then so be it! God’s will be done!

Just as Christ came and preached to those who would reject him, so too are we, His followers. We are following Him, aren’t we? We should not expect to have greater success that Christ!

All of the biblical examples of the teaching of the doctrine of predestination (of believers) are addressed exclusively to believers. As an example, have a look at the salutation verses of Peters’ epistles, or of Paul’s letter to the Romans. You’ll not find even ONE example of a message delivered TO non-believers that includes the predestination OF believers…

The only exceptions are the parable teachings of Jesus, which were actually veiled teachings, delivered to all, but designed to be received ONLY by believers…

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

When Jesus Died, he died once for all, to abolish the death sentence that the First Adam placed upon us. 1Co 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. "

2Co 5:14-15
(14) For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
(15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

1Ti 2:5-6
(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Heb 10:9-10
(9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
(10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

I will leave you to consider this verse.
Jas 3:11
(11) Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

Sweet water and bitter water do not come from the same fountain. Even a drop of bitter water can not exist, neither can one lie exist in the Bible. For a lie is a contradiction of the truth and of scriptures. So if you find yourself with two scriptures that appear to contradict each other remember this. Either the Scripture is wrong.... or what you believe it to mean is wrong.

I’m not using CAPS to yell… Just to punctuate. I think it’s milder than BOLD…

I know that a lot of people take the verses you cite (and others) as you present them here. I also know that reformed theology, although enjoying a resurgence, remains the minority view. However, there was a time when reformed theology was the majority view in the U.S. It was the doctrine of the Episcopalians (check the 1801 prayer book), Presbyterians and most Baptists. Most have abandoned it for teachings that (I think) are more palatable to the carnal ear.

It’s been around since Christ himself who taught it and then Paul and Augustine and Calvin and Spurgeon and McArthur. I just don’t want to get bashed and told that I am preaching a new, man made, evil, false doctrine from Hell, or whatever. We reformed guys get a lot of that, and it gets so tiring.

All of these verses are addressed to or are in reference to believers. They cannot be properly interpreted to conclude that God’s wants t o save ALL human beings. He HAS elected certain people (a third) for salvation. Far too may OTHER verses are compromised by taking these few verses and extending them to apply to ALL MEN.

Reformed theology asserts that these sorts of verses pertain to the church, the sheep, the elect, etc.

So, when we read, “once for allâ€, reformed folks think that means “all the sheepâ€. We should all be able to agree that we MUST assume that it means either one or the other, ‘cause it doesn’t specify. It either means “all mankind†or “all the electâ€. So can we agree that an assumption MUST be made? We HAVE TO come to a conclusion. Usually, Augustinians are accused of purposefully twisting scripture to suit our fancy, but I assure you that we are sincere.

Often times, the verses are addressed SPECIFICALLY to believers. Yet people LIKE to apply them to everyone. “Not willing that any should perish†is a classic example (though you didn’t cite it). The whole context is about believers having patience. The whole chapter is addressed to believers, “brethrenâ€, and “belovedâ€. In fact the Whole book is addressed to believers, “Who have received…faithâ€. One really DOES have to take that ONE verse ALL by itself to derive the popular, Arminian meaning.

I have the same response to each of the verses you mention. I do not see conflict between them at all. BUT… The verse taken the way YOU present then conflict rather strikingly to the BULK of scripture that teaches us that God makes a habit of choosing certain people and groups for His divine purpose. It is clear part of His nature to CHOOSE people. He chose Israel as a model and prophesy, in and of itself, of how he would elect Christians, and ransom the “out of the worldâ€. He did not choose the Caldeans or Ai or the Philistines or the Amalikites. Christianity is an exclusive religion, even though it can be hard to understand. Read Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane for confirmation…

I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.(John 17:9)

So, here I apply the same rule you set forth: When two precepts seem to conflict, I need to have discernment to figure out what the truth is.

-HisSheep

 

[smaller]

So, here I apply the same rule you set forth: When two precepts seem to conflict, I need to have discernment to figure out what the truth is.

-HisSheep

IN classic determinist holdings it is my understanding that no self proclaimed elect can really be assured until the end and then having that Determination by God Alone, which would be what a 'real' Divine Sovereign claimer would logically have to claim imho.

One of my beefs with SBG's position is a denial of this long held determinist position, outright denying God that Final Determination and taking it now without bowing to Divine Sovereign Determination.

That in itself belies his position. Not the holder mind you, but it does cast no small amount of doubt when claimants exalt over Divine Election by The Divine Himself.

There are many correct views by determinists, but the views do have some faults, just as all views have. Reason says that Divine Sovereignty could very well have claims and determinations that partial seers can not see or determine and that those who exalt claims above The Final Determiner are no true claimant of Divine Sovereign.

The RCC and most forms of orthodoxy and even the brighter class of determinism has always made room for God possibly being a little more Gracious than we may be able to imagine.

s

 

[HisSheep]

IN classic determinist holdings it is my understanding that no self proclaimed elect can really be assured until the end and then having that Determination by God Alone, which would be what a 'real' Divine Sovereign claimer would logically have to claim imho.

I see what you're saying. I've heard similar views before. My Romish friend tells me that there is an arrogance in claiming that a person KNOWS that they are saved. I tell him that it is NOT arrogance, because the saved DIDN'T have anything to do with their justification.

God did it TO me. I boast only in the LORD! He SAVED me! I didn't deserve it!

Let me ask you: do you sing "Blessed Assurance" in your church?

Here is a powerful verse about it:

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1John 5:13)

The bible says that God wants BOLD witnesses who KNOW that they are saved.

Do you KNOW that YOU are saved?

Is there something WRONG with KNOWING it for sure?

Can a person be BORN AGAIN and not know it full well?

-HisSheep

 

[smaller]

I see what you're saying. I've heard similar views before. My Romish friend tells me that there is an arrogance in claiming that a person KNOWS that they are saved. I tell him that it is NOT arrogance, because the saved DIDN'T have anything to do with their justification.

God did it TO me. I boast only in the LORD! He SAVED me! I didn't deserve it!

Let me ask you: do you sing "Blessed Assurance" in your church?

Here is a powerful verse about it:

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1John 5:13)

The bible says that God wants BOLD witnesses who KNOW that they are saved.

Do you KNOW that YOU are saved?

Is there something WRONG with KNOWING it for sure?

Can a person be BORN AGAIN and not know it full well?

-HisSheep

Isn't it true thought in classic determinism that one must Persevere to the end to know?

For the record I accept that we can know and accept the certainty of salvation in this present life and that it can't be lost. But that is of course a matter of debate.

I also do not extend that 'sure Grace' to the workings of the tempter which we also 'all' have. So there are lines to be drawn, even within ourselves. We could not for example proclaim our OSAS while we are stabbing someone to death and claiming that act or action to be under Grace. It is in fact the actions of a pawn of sin.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

His sheep

SBG57, I typically agree with you on practically everything, just for the
record. But Peter is NOT, in this verse, (Acts 2:23) referring to the
predestination of the SAINTS.

Yes He is, for Christ's death, Burial, and Resurrection was in Behalf of those He died for. Rom 4:25

25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

He was their Head when He died, they were One in the Law and Justice of God !




Thats why He was foreknown 1 Pet 1:20

20Who verily was foreordained[or foreknown] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

And they were foreknew Rom 8:29

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


You really cannot seperate Christ from His members, that would be a divided Christ !

 

[HisSheep]

Isn't it true thought in classic determinism that one must Persevere to the end to know?

For the record I accept that we can know and accept the certainty of salvation in this present life and that it can't be lost. But that is of course a matter of debate.

I also do not extend that 'sure Grace' to the workings of the tempter which we also 'all' have. So there are lines to be drawn, even within ourselves. We could not for example proclaim our OSAS while we are stabbing someone to death and claiming that act or action to be under Grace. It is in fact the actions of a pawn of sin.

Yes, the called must persevere. But the reformed view is that God preserves his people. He does NOT allow them to be tempted beyond what they can bear, and He promises to provide a way out of the temptation.

(Not to just toss a bunch of scripture at you) Scripture is PACKED with verses that says God preserves His people. Here are just a few:

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 1:24)

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 35:27)

The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. (Psalm 121:7)

And when Jesus Himself was praying in Gethsemane He prayed this:

…Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John 17:11)

Jesus’ prayers ALWAYS get answered, because He ALWAYS prays according to the will of the Father.

The truly saved DON’T murder and claim grace, if that’s what you’re asking. I’m sure there have been wackos who have claimed to be saved and then lived like a reprobate… But we are known by our fruit.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1John 3:9)

One way that we know we are born again is because we don’t WANT to sin anymore. When we were dead in sin, we LOVED sin. Now, although we may err and sin sometimes, we HATE the sin nature. We no longer WANT to sin! (See Romans 7:15)

Thank you for you honest discourse.

Praise God!

-HisSheep

 

[smaller]

Yes, the called must persevere. But the reformed view is that God preserves his people. He does NOT allow them to be tempted beyond what they can bear, and He promises to provide a way out of the temptation.

(Not to just toss a bunch of scripture at you) Scripture is PACKED with verses that says God preserves His people. Here are just a few:

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 1:24)

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (Ezekiel 35:27)

The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. (Psalm 121:7)

And when Jesus Himself was praying in Gethsemane He prayed this:

…Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. (John 17:11)

Jesus’ prayers ALWAYS get answered, because He ALWAYS prays according to the will of the Father.

The truly saved DON’T murder and claim grace, if that’s what you’re asking. I’m sure there have been wackos who have claimed to be saved and then lived like a reprobate… But we are known by our fruit.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1John 3:9)

One way that we know we are born again is because we don’t WANT to sin anymore. When we were dead in sin, we LOVED sin. Now, although we may err and sin sometimes, we HATE the sin nature. We no longer WANT to sin! (See Romans 7:15)

Thank you for you honest discourse.

Praise God!

-HisSheep

You understand that whatever we as Gods children have, which is abundance beyond our comprehensions and wondrous to our hearts, that the workings of the tempter inclusive of 'his/those thoughts' in any form 'within' our hearts remains utterly condemned.

God does provide us clear division, particularly recognizing the exercise of temptation, what it is, whom it is from and where it transpires (within the heart and mind.)

A legitimate view can be made in this matter that Grace does not and can not extend to that working whatsoever, and we certainly have temptation of the tempter as a test of faith as work of patient endurance and even suffering.

It's an interesting tension.

I am reluctant to be drawn into any theological understanding that does not cut off that working of the tempter or applies it so much as a toehold of Grace, Mercy or His Love. To paint ourselves entirely with Grace stops dead in it's tracks at the point where the tempter is encountered within our minds or hearts, such as in the mere 'thought' of sinning thoughts via the tempter. This places the tempter 'in heart/mind' to make that temptation very real, attempting to seem as 'our own thoughts' when they are NOT.

The 'fruit' of truth is apparent when the fact of the tempter in 'mind' is pinpointed, revealed/admitted to and harshly 'resisted' both by His Words against same, and in not 'taking that bait' in external words or actions. Theological understanding is worse when that boundary is not recognized and is not drawn.

The bait however is certainly dangled starting within. IF that is recognized as the tempter therein, then the heart is assuredly wicked because of that presence, even while a believer stands under the entire sufficiency of unmerited GRACE.

This is also why I resist the message of SBG, because that 'fact' is not admitted to or acknowledged, and it's just an all wholesome and good deal for him regardless of the tempters workings and a bad deal for everyone else who doesn't cotton up to his structures, many of which I totally agree with on the 'believers side' of the ledgers. I won't extend that Grace beyond the boundary above. There is a clear line in the dust, so to speak.

The tempter in any of us is NOT under Grace nor is it wise to consider that to be the case.

s

 

[HisSheep]

Smaller, I really appreciate that you have given this a great deal of thought. More often than not, people who take exception to the doctrines of grace are misunderstanding scripture or applying verses to the wrong groups of people. You are not doing that and it makes for a good conversation.

I do see what you are saying… Scripture DOES implore us to strive, persevere, watch our behavior. We are warned that we may actually be “cut offâ€! (Romans 11:22) We are told that the devil walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. Surely, the Christian life is not effortless. The bible likens it to war!

Just as Israel was at war against her enemies, so is her antitype, the Christian. And as we read in 2Chronicles 20 (I LOVE this chapter!) Israel is handed her victory BY GOD. In fact, He defeats the enemies of Israel EVERY time. He delivers her enemies into her hands:

Ye shall not need to fight in this battle: set yourselves, stand ye still, and see the salvation of the LORD with you, O Judah and Jerusalem: fear not, nor be dismayed; to morrow go out against them: for the LORD will be with you. (2Chronicles 20:17)

We see this pattern over and over and over. Israel is EVER ONLY to “trust and obeyâ€, just like the great hymn says. When Israel doubts or disobeys, they are chastened with loss, defeat, or disease. But when they are faithful they CANNOT LOOSE! This is precisely true of the Christian also.

Hence: we are told in scripture (exactly seven times!) that the “just shall live by faithâ€!

Praise God!

I want to add this other thought… God’s “big picture†goal isn’t to save as many souls as He can. He is omnipotent. He can save them ALL if he wants to. He has ALL the power and authority to do that if He so chooses. God saves His people quite easily. In effect, they are already saved. The real work that God is doing, is conforming the justified (that’s us Christians) to the image of his Son. THAT is the part we are to be hard at work doing. THAT is the part that we are to work out with fear and trembling. It includes prayer, studying, purifying oneself, sacrificing and witnessing. These activities bring us into conformity with Jesus.

Do you understand the “three tenses†of salvation? That’s my own term for it, but the concept is Paul’s. I don’t want to patronize you, so I’ll be brief:

Paul teaches us in Romans that believers:

Have been saved – Justification
Are being saved – Sanctification
Will be saved – Glorification

Conforming us to Christ’s image IS the sanctification part. We have a real role in our sanctification, but NO ROLE in Justification. Sanctification can sometimes be very uncomfortable for us. But the more faithful we are in trusting and obeying, the easier time we will have of it. The more chastening we require… well…. The more chastening He will provide for us. But what ever happens, He will not loose ANY!

If God wants you to quit smoking for example…. Because it is ruining your witness, and it is an idol in your life and it is not of Christ, He will make it CLEAR to you. If you do not comply you may come down with bronchitis. He will make it clearer still the next time, and if you still don’t come around and comply, you may get a case of Pneumonia. If that doesn’t do the trick perhaps a brush with cancer will get through to you. Either way, you WILL listen to His voice. You WILL learn to seek his face and lean on Him. You WILL be driven to pray. Even if it is on your death bed. But I PROMISE you this… He WILL NOT give up on His child. We don’t conform OURSELVES to His image. He conforms US. We are only to COMPLY.

Don't ever forget WHY he is doing it: it's not for US at all, but for Himself! To glorify His Holy Name!

...I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake... (Ezekiel 36:22)

He's NOT going to fail in that endeavor.

Knowing this… why fight it?

Why do your will rather than His?

He is going to take your idols.

He is going to refine you.

Why fight it when God says:

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (Ezekiel 36:25)

That’s what God is doing in your life.

THIS is the chief value in understanding that your destiny IS DETERMINED. If you think your salvation is yet to be determined, you are much more likely to serve yourself, still thinking that you are still in some sort of control. “I can do what I wantâ€. “I’m still pretty good, even if I just do this sometimes…â€

We are less inclined to reserve a piece of ourselves once we understand that it is FUTILE to resist!

Nothing has brought me into submission more effectively than this knowledge.

I want other Christians to have it, too.

For Christ's sake,

-HisSheep

 

[smaller]

Smaller, I really appreciate that you have given this a great deal of thought. More often than not, people who take exception to the doctrines of grace are misunderstanding scripture or applying verses to the wrong groups of people. You are not doing that and it makes for a good conversation.

I do see what you are saying… Scripture DOES implore us to strive, persevere, watch our behavior. We are warned that we may actually be “cut offâ€! (Romans 11:22) We are told that the devil walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. Surely, the Christian life is not effortless. The bible likens it to war!

-HisSheep

You missed the point entirely. While you acknowledge the battle as I surely do as well, and even acknowledge the tempter tempting in mind and inserting SIN THOUGHT what you don't see in that fact is the simplicity that it is not JUST US as believers.

What applies to you and I and any other believer can not possibly apply to the tempter or his minions and these do operate in believers every time a tempting sin thought passes your mind.

You even go so far as to claim obedience to stop smoking as an example, not saying your track isn't just fine as it is, but even that does NOT eradicate the presence of the tempter to tempt. It puts whitewash on the outside but that position does not LOOK WITHIN where we are directed to observe.

If we look accurately we should see the fact that the tempter never behaves, is obedient or sinless regardless.

We are commanded not to let that working reign in our mind and body, but that doesn't say that working isn't there to reign. This matter is why so many doctrines are so utterly ridiculous, but the holders just can't seem able to honestly judge their own hearts and they pass the magic wand of total immunity doctrines over their minds in total ignorance of the fact of the tempters presence.

I hope you catch this truthful drift. It's meant only for 'accuracy' to text and honesty in doctrines. None of us should be cutting the tempter ANY kind of slack on any measure.

If we faced this reality a lot of our differences would disappear in Truth and we would see who our real enemies are. The divisions in christianity are just stupidity personified.

s