wayseer
Member
Of course it is - that is why Israel is trying to import Jews from anywhere to come to Israel.
Have you seen the new 'settlements' that have sprung since?
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The new social front line for Christian persecution and the
- Thread starter Danus
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Of course it is - that is why Israel is trying to import Jews from anywhere to come to Israel.
Have you seen the new 'settlements' that have sprung since?
wayseer
Member
The reason I raised it was to illustrate how the oppressed inevitable become the oppressor. The same happened to Christianity after 325.
Mike
Member
Danus
Member
Here is a link to an interesting discussion on this very topic, hosted by Crane Durham on his show. A lot of what has already been discussed is brought out, but the subject of slavery is discussed in detail.
http://www.afa.net/Radio/show.aspx?id=2147490429&tab=video&video=2147520726
[video]http://www.afa.net/Radio/show.aspx?id=2147490429&tab=video&video=2147520726[/video]
http://www.afa.net/Radio/show.aspx?id=2147490429&tab=video&video=2147520726
[video]http://www.afa.net/Radio/show.aspx?id=2147490429&tab=video&video=2147520726[/video]
Navigator
Member
Forgive me if I'm late on this (it's already been posted) but here is a Christian response to Savage's speech that I found very compelling and had good points:
http://lifeteen.com/why-dan-savage-is-wrong-about-bible-christians-bullying-response/
http://lifeteen.com/why-dan-savage-is-wrong-about-bible-christians-bullying-response/
Danus
Member
That is excellent commentary Navigator. I'm pasting the content here
At a conference for High School journalists, Dan Savage gave a talk that was supposed to be about anti-bullying. Instead it was anti-Christian. As he began to talk about the “bullish*t†of what can be found in the Bible, many Christian students stood up and walked out on him – a move he later called “pansy-assed.†Here’s the video. It’s about three minutes, but be forewarned there is some swearing going on in it (not suitable if kids are nearby).
The video has gone viral since being posted three days ago, the vast majority of people giving it a “like.†The comments below the video are horrifically anti-gay and only go to further the disgusting stereotype that Savage is bashing in his speech.
My first reaction to this video was shock. I couldn’t believe that someone could speak like that in such a public forum. If a speaker in a similar forum talked about how Jesus died for all of our sins he or she would have been rushed off the stage. But I quickly got over that. St. Peter wrote, “Don’t be surprised that a trial is occurring among you, as if something strange were happening to you.†(1 Peter 4:12) Christians should expect to be persecuted.
I Feel Bad For Dan Savage . . .
He suggests that we should overlook the prohibitions in the Bible regarding same sex activity just as we overlook things like stoning women who are adulterers. I teach a course on Scripture at Franciscan University of Steubenville and I’ll be honest: it’s hard to read things like that in Scripture. Interestingly enough, the reason we find it hard to read is because we’ve been transformed by Christ who we also learn about in the Bible. For there are many cultures (who don’t read the Bible) who would still agree with those kind of behaviors.
Barbaric Humanity
If the law of God seems barbaric in the Old Testament, we have to remember that it was because 3,500 years ago humanity was barbaric, at least by our Western civilization standards of the 21st century. When you hear of the genocides that still occur today you can argue that not much has changed in some places in the world.
God slowly revealed Himself to the Israelites so that through them the world might learn what it truly means to live and love through the example and teaching of Jesus Christ. We don’t stone women anymore for adultery—â€Let he who is without sin cast the first stone†is one of the most famous lines of Jesus (John 8). In fact, we don’t believe in capital punishment at all (unless keeping the prisoner alive is a danger to society—an argument that makes more sense when prisoners were kept in tents and clay houses than billion dollar penitentiaries.)
Is the Bible Pro-Slavery?
Savage mentions that “the Bible is a radically pro-slavery document.†I believe this accusation to be purposefully ignorant. Yes, St. Paul wrote of the respect and duty that slaves should have for their masters and masters for their slaves. But while the term “slave†is used in broad terms in both the Old and New Testament, it is NEVER used in the way it was experienced in America (capturing people from their native land, selling them off for profit, denying rights, justifying abuse . . . ).
The Jewish people experienced that kind of slavery at the hand of the Egyptians and a strong part of their Law was to not do that to anyone else.
In the Jewish custom, a slave was more like an indentured servant who could only sell themselves, not be sold by someone else. And after six years they’d have to be released unless they begged their master to be a servant for life (Exodus 21:5) and even then only the judges could decide if that could happen.
But I understand Savage’s deeper point. In the time of slavery in America, some slave owners used the Bible to justify their actions. They were wrong to do so. In our current time, there are many Americans who bully and discriminate against people with same sex attractions and use the Bible to justify their actions.
Guess what? They are wrong to do so, too.
Love One Another
Christianity has much to atone for in the way we have treated people with homosexual attractions. If only we were as shocked at the way the media portrays sinful heterosexual activity! It’s too easy to be shocked and disgusted at the sins we aren’t tempted to commit because we have no sympathy for the offender. (Whereas we are naturally kinder to people who struggle with our same issues.) Jesus didn’t say, “Love one another . . . except for the gays.â€
We are all commanded by Christ to love as He loved us and to treat each other with the dignity that comes from being made in the image and likeness of God. It seems clear to me that Dan Savage has never experienced that love from people who claim to know Christ but instead has experienced the opposite. And that’s why I feel such sorrow when I hear him speak.
However, just because people get the Bible wrong doesn’t mean the Bible is wrong.
Savage (and others) think the Bible and Christianity is the problem. If that were true then cultures not formed on the Bible should be tolerant and accepting of homosexual behavior . . . but that is not always the case.
In a 2007 Pew Survey that asked if homosexuality should be accepted in society, Latin America, Western Europe, and Central Europe found about half agreeing with that idea. But Southern and Eastern Europe, the Middle East, huge portions of Asia and all of Africa strongly disagreed. It’s hard to suggest that the Bible has influenced predijuce in China and India. (See the study here, page 35.)
And though I feel some sympathy for the man, that doesn’t mean I sympathize at all with his position. He’s wrong and I think it was horrible that he used that opportunity with high school teenagers to bash the Bible. He would have been way more effective sharing with those teenagers the pain of being judged and condemned by people with religious beliefs than attacking Christianity. He was “fighting back†to a group of kids who hadn’t done him any harm. It was immature and inappropriate.
The Anti-Bully Bully
I was proud of the students who walked out on him. It wasn’t “pansy-assed.†It was just the opposite. In Savage’s attempt to teach teens about not discriminating against homosexuals, he became the bully.
The world won’t see it that way. His anti-Christian rhetoric will be justified as “righteous anger†that blames all people of faith for any unjust act done against a person with same-sex attraction. More and more in society today, people think to be Christian is to be a bigot. They think that we who believe that sex was made for a man and woman in marriage should hang our head in shame and stay home on voting day to atone for our sins.
Sadly, many Christians are doing just that. These issues are driving many away from the Church. It reminds me of something the artist formerly known as Ratzinger wrote in 1970 (from his book Faith and the Future, this quote taken from here) :
“The church will become small and will have to start afresh more or less from the beginning.
She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members…
The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.â€
Smaller but stronger. A Church who’s strength is built not on the amount of her followers but the depth of her love for God and neighbor.She will no longer be able to inhabit many of the edifices she built in prosperity. As the number of her adherents diminishes . . . she will lose many of her social privileges. . . As a small society, [the Church] will make much bigger demands on the initiative of her individual members…
The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith. She may well no longer be the dominant social power to the extent that she was until recently; but she will enjoy a fresh blossoming and be seen as man’s home, where he will find life and hope beyond death.â€
What Do We Do?
So how should we treat those who speak against us? With love.
How should we behave towards those with same sex attractions? Love.
What should we do to those who support and provide abortions? Love.
How should we treat our enemies? Love.
But – and forgive me for using a phrase that Savage employed – not a “pansy-ass†love that says that everything is fine no matter what you do. A love that is rooted in truth. A love that is rooted in mercy. A love that is rooted in Jesus Christ.
Our love of God and neighbor means we can’t be silent on these issues, no matter what persecution we will face, no matter what people may think of us when we do. And when we speak we must do so “with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than from doing evil.†(1 Peter 3:16-17)
Don’t expect to be understood. Don’t be surprised at the trial And don’t lose hope for this culture. “Love never fails.†(1 Corinthians 13:8)
Read more from Bob at his blog Bob-Rice.com
wayseer
Member
I guess on the same criteria then you would also class Jesus as a 'bully'.
Jesus said far more horrendous things concerning the social sensibilities of his day than has Savage.
It's time for the church to stop pretending.
Danus
Member
Please enlighten us on the horrendous bullying of people by Jesus regarding social sensibilities. :bounceball
K stunna
Member
Why are you even on this Website? Do you actually plan to become a christian?
Or are you here to go out of your way just to harass members and try to debunk Christianity every waking second you can?
Seriously dude, im a little immature sometimes too mostly cause im a teen and i go to high school, but wow man. Do you not have anything better to do? Have you lost a member of your family to a "Christian" or what, cause you seem to come across as really bitter :bigfrown
wayseer
Member
First up - where did I use the word 'bullying'?
What I have said is ...
... which is different to what you say I said.
What I have suggested is if you apply the same criteria to the comments made by Savage then you have to apply that same criteria to the comments made by Jesus. If you are unwilling to apply the same criteria then do you not become a hypocrite?
But back to your point.
I would argue that Savage is, as did Jesus, demonstrating the essential hypocrisy within much of Christianity. Savage is a breath of fresh air blowing through the dusty corridors of ecclesiastical authority.
Danus
Member
OK. But, unless you can explain, or expound on any of that you have said then I may have to diagnose you as suffering from PPS.
PPS is "Parrot Poser Syndrome". It's a debilitating condition where the sufferer makes short somewhat nonsensical statements which they can't expand on because they are using phases and ideas heard elsewhere that may, or may not relate to the topic.
Here are the symptoms.
Few or no original thoughts
Short statements
Repeated statements, like a broken record.
Sometimes quip statements
Dry mouth
Headcase....the list goes on
There has already been posted, in this thread, a piece by Bob Rice on Dan Savage talking about the church, and how the church has failed to engage the homosexual community.
"Navigator" posted the link. I liked it so much I copied and pasted it, then you posted. Why don't you give us more of your thought on the matter. I know you read the Bob Rice article. Is that what you took away from it?
What lessons do you think the church should gain from all this and how do you think the church should be in relation to the message of Dan Savage? How is Dan Savage a breath of fresh air? Can you add any meat to what you have said so far? I'd like to hear it.
tessiewebb
Member
This may be difficult for many of you to watch, but let me set the stage.
In this video he is addressing high school kids. Some of those kids are Christians. The subject is bullying, and he's going to get to the heart of the matter. Watch what happens, and see if you can spot the irony of this hidden agenda.
Also, if your worried about your kids and these types of messages, just look what the Christian kids did in this little meeting.
Whoop Whoop!! If all those kids walking out of this man's video are Christians, then HALLELUJAH!
Two things more on this video and your post: 1) I couldn't watch it all the way through. 2: What is the "irony of this hidden agenda"? Didn't see much "hidden" in it but like I said, didn't watch it all the way through. Be so kind as to let me know about the hidden agenda thing, will you? So I don't have to watch it or go wondering about the agenda all day?
Thanks, Danus, for giving us such a vivid wake up call!
To whoever started this slogan: "anti-bullying crusade"
nice politicking. (Almost as smart as Muslims starting their now famous "Islamophobia" slogan.) So now, any Christian who holds with God that homosexuality is an abomination is a bully, very well done!
Last edited by a moderator:
Danus
Member
The obvious Irony is that the "bullied" be comes the bully.
But, your right in that there was not much hidden in What Savage was saying, and the agenda is not much hidden, but the agenda is what it's always been since the cultural-sexual-revolution of the 60's, and that is to deChristianize American, and western, social institutions.On some fronts it's a good thing because I think it will help purify Christianity in society. There are many people who just go along with the popular culture regardless of what it is, without even giving it much thought, even if that's Christianity.
We've done that, and perhaps this it the beginning of the separation of wheat from chaff, so to speak. However, Christians are going to have to decide how we will embrace the world as we lose ground in it's governance. Will we fight? will we stand our ground? It's a confusing time and more so we will have to rely on the Lord. That's the good part.
Those kids who walked out are standing their ground.
tessiewebb
Member
The obvious Irony is that the "bullied" be comes the bully.
Yes, and it seems to be working pretty well! I don't think it just started in the '60's though, although you did specify "American and western", so maybe you are completely right, I'd have to research it. I'm thinking about the spiritism movement of the 1800's (I think that was Edgar Cayce's and the "seances" day??).
Well, I suppose it is possible that it is at the very least a wake up call to Christians who think everyone is one. Or those who espouse "all roads lead to God" theology.
Amen! If we ever got together past our denominational barriers and opinions not based on Biblical standards, Christians would surely be a force to be reckoned with. I pray God will see that that happens before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord!
Jesus only spoke/speaks truth. Savage speaks what he believes is truth. Big and important difference.
tessiewebb
Member
Very big, Reba. Thank you for this point and I say AMEN to it.
wayseer
Member
Was Jesus speaking the truth when he said that he has only come for the Jews?
Was Jesus speaking the truth when he said that he prays not for this world?
Was Jesus speaking the truth when he said that his followers must leave home and family?
Was Jesus speaking the truth when he said we have to sell everything in order to follow him?
Which words of Jesus do you 'believe' are 'true'? And, have you followed Jesus at his word?
Truth is very illusive don't you think?
wayseer
Member
I am not the one making the case - just questioning the case that is being made.
The case being made, as far as I understand the argument thus far, is that Savage is a bully because people walked out on his lecture.
My point is that if one is to apply that criteria to Savage then one has to apply the same criteria to Jesus - because many people 'walk out' when listening to him. So, in remaining consistent, I must conclude that those who claim Savage is a bully also claim that Jesus was a bully.
Mike S
Member
Yes, Reba, well said. As the Son of God, Jesus has a little greater moral authority than does Dan Savage.
Danus
Member
No one is making a case that has not already been made by the word God about the world. Savage is only proving it. If you think it's about Savage the bully then your missing the point, and looking at it from the perspective of the world.
The perspective of the Christian about Savage is the irony of his so called fight against bullies and his idea of "tolerance" yet he himself displays intolerance. His message to us is a clear paradox, and in many ways it's just funny in a sad way.
If Savage is the subject for you, then you are in support of Savage. That's pretty clear. To the Christian Savage is not the subject, his message, the world and how we see and react to it is the subject.
So what is your argument? That Jesus is a bully? That Jesus is like Savage with a paradoxical message? Go ahead and explain that if you will. You've yet to do that.