The Pentacostal Movement

[Igor]

Well, you have not agreed with me. If you agree with me [and the word of God], then you have to state that there is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" [gifts given by the Holy Spirit].

No, I can agree in part without having to agree with your every word. I also reject that agreeing with you personally equates agreeing with the word of God. I guess you just see everything as black and white, agree with me completely or not at all. Rejecting something you say is equal to rejecting God's word. Sorry to hear this.

 

[Drew]

So the word rapture is not in the Bible. I will agree to that, but the word 'harpazō' ( caught up) is used. How do you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:17?

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

I would like to take a crack at this, since I do not believe there will be a "rapture". Please excuse the length.

I believe that the scriptures do not teach that there will be any kind of rapture event involving believers leaving the surface of the earth.

Paul’s description of living believers being snatched up in the air in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is, I suggest, a metaphorical rendering of what he says in two other passages: 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Phillipians 3:20-21. Here is the 1 Corinthians 15 passage:

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

When will this happen? At Jesus’s return. From earlier in the same passage:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

The reference to “being made alive” clearly maps to the raising of the dead to an imperishable state. Now here is the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever

Clearly the same scenario is being described in both texts. Note the structural parallels. In simplified form we have:

1 Cor 15: Return of Jesus à Trumpet à resurrection of dead à transformation of the living
1 Thess 4: Return of Jesus à Trumpet à resurrection of dead à catching up of the living

It would seem rather clear that there can only be a single “fate” for those who are alive when Jesus returns, the trumpet is sounded, and the dead are raised. Granted, it is characterized somewhat differently in the 1 Thess 4 text as in the 1 Cor 15 text. But, given the trumpet is present in both contexts and the resurrection of the dead is present in both contexts, and the overall scenario is about what happens when Jesus returns, we really must conclude that there is an equivalence between “being transformed” (as per the 1 Cor 15 material) and “being caught in the air” (as per the 1 Thess text). There are simply too many factors in common between the 1 Cor 15 context and the 1 Thess 4 context to allow us to see the “transformation” as being an event other than the same event described as being “caught up in the air”.

If the standard “rapture” view is to be sustained in respect to the 1 Thess 4 passage, we are left with the following puzzle: We have 2 different events (the “rapture” of 1 Thess 4 and the transformation of 1 Cor 15) both occasioned by a return of Jesus, both accompanied by a trumpet blast, and both accompanied by the raising of the dead.

I suspect that the way the “rapture theologians” get around this is to posit that there are two “returns” of Jesus – one to rapture people away, followed a later “final” return. And there are two trumpet blasts – one at each return. Finally, there must be two raisings of the dead, one at each return.

That sounds mighty forced and awkward and really becomes highly unrealistic upon analysis. If different “return” events are really being described in both passages, then the 1 Thess 4 “raising of the dead” must precede the 1 Corinthians 15 raising of the dead, if rapture theology is to work. Note the implications of this:

1. In the 1 Thess 4 account, it is only those believers who are alive at the time who are raptured. So the dead who get raised are “left behind” along with those who are not raptured. This is a decidedly odd scenario – the living believers are raptured and the world chugs along with two categories of human beings - the resurrected dead and people, who were neither raptured nor raised from the dead. Do you really think that is sensible?

2. In the 1 Corinthians 15 account, describing Jesus’ 2nd “second coming” on the view I am critiquing, Paul tells us that the dead are raised. Fine. But if there has been a prior raising of the dead, then who are those raised at this 2nd return of Jesus? Presumably those who have died since the first “raising of the dead” – as per the 1 Thess 4 material. But Paul has told us the general resurrection sequence in 1 Cor 15 – first Jesus, then when he returns, everybody else. So has Paul forgotten about those raised at the first return of Jesus (the 1 Thess 4) version?

This whole scenario seems surpassingly contrived and downright silly. To be fair, perhaps I have misrepresented what rapture believers actually believe to be the case. Please advice me if this is so and / or comment on the model I have ascribed to those who accept the rapture model.

I suggest that the raising of the dead is a single discrete event in time. It only happens once. So this really does force us to see the “transformation” as being the same event as the “catching up of the living”. Paul is using the “caught up in the air” image to represent the transformation that will take place in the bodies of those who are alive at the time of the resurrection.

Note how the Phillipians 3 text endorses the 1 Corinthians 15 text in respect to what actually happens to those alive at the time of Jesus’ return (if there is only return) – they are transformed, not snatched away:

20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body

Both the 1 Corinthians 15 and the Phillipians 3 texts are asserting that those who are alive at Jesus’ appearing will be changed or transformed so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but he uses poetic imagery, from biblical and political sources, to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

 

[Alabaster]

Some times we can really understand why the scriptures say...

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Who understands it? Obviously you miss it.

 

[Watchman_2]

Being i was born and raised in the Pentecostalism i can tell you the above statement is not a truth.

Thanks for your input. My late wife was a Pentecostal. That is where I rec'd the info.

 

[Sparkey]

Your allegation hinges on the use of a single word?
Okay, let's look and see, right?

πνευματικός Transliteration: pneumatikos

Part of Speech
adjective

From πνεῦμα (G4151)
Pneumatikos Outline of Biblical Usage

1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ

a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
​

2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God

3) belonging to the Divine Spirit

a) of God the Holy Spirit

b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
​

4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing​

The Holy Spirit penned these words through Paul:
Now δέ de

concerning περί peri

spiritual πνευματικός pneumatikos

gifts, brethren, ἀδελφός adelphos

I do not want θέλω thelō

you to be unaware. ἀγνοέω agnoeō
_________________________________________________

Even if I were to concede your point (which I am not willing to do) the subject would become pneumatikos adelphos - the Brethren.

"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. ... Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, ... All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." - 1 Corinthians 12:4-5, 7-9, 11 NIV

It seems clear enough to me that Paul said that there are different kinds of gifts (there are varieties [διαίρεσις diairesis] of gifts [χάρισμα charisma]) ----> BUT they are all given by the same Spirit (but the same [αὐτός autos] Spirit [πνεῦμα pneuma]).

Paul states that all these [gifts] are given through the same spirit: "All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." - 1 Corinthians 12:11 NIV

What "gifts" is he speaking about that are given by the Holy Spirit? He just got done listing them (Paul is good with making lists, isn't he?)

"To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues." - 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 NIV

This is the same thing that I tried to do when I listed the 9 mentioned gifts of the Holy Spirit earlier in thread:

Gifts of Utterance:
•The Gift of Tongues
•The Gift of Intrepretation of Tongues
•The Gift of Prophecy
Gifts of Revelation:
•The Gift of Wisdom
•The Gift of Knowledge
•The Gift of Discernment of Spirits
Power Gifts:
•The Gift of Miracles
•The Gift of Faith
•The Gifts of Healings

As yet, I fail to understand or be persuaded that I should give more heed to what you say over what is clearly stated in the more sure word of Prophecy. Saying that there are no gifts seems at minimum contradictory. The argument that Paul didn't want others to be ignorant of the gifts used by the brethren does not mean that they were of the devil. Not in the least.

 

[Watchman_2]

This is another general assumption. 2

See post above to Reba. As for Catholics, I rec'd the information directly from them.

So the word rapture is not in the Bible. I will agree to that, but the word 'harpazō' ( caught up) is used. How do you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:17?

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

This is not a rapture topic. So, without much elaboration, I will give you the highlights -

caught up = forcibly seized
air = breath of life body [spiritual body]
clouds = great number of saints that Christ brings with him
trump = 7th trumpet

 

[Alabaster]

1 Tim. 4:1 idicates that some [Pentacostals for one group] give heed to seducing [which are Satanic] spirits [i.e. 'tongues'] and doctrines of devils [beliefs that would lead one to worship Satan -- i.e. 'Rapture']. It has nothing to do with the gifts of God that all receive [identified in 1 Cor. 12].

Personal interpretation that goes far beyond God's intent usually has its origins in fear. What are you fearing,Watchman? Don't answer me. Meditate on this.

I pray in tongues about you. Be blessed!

 

[cleanfreak]

I would like to take a crack at this, since I do not believe there will be a "rapture". Please excuse the length.

I believe that the scriptures do not teach that there will be any kind of rapture event involving believers leaving the surface of the earth.

Paul’s description of living believers being snatched up in the air in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is, I suggest, a metaphorical rendering of what he says in two other passages: 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Phillipians 3:20-21. Here is the 1 Corinthians 15 passage:

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

When will this happen? At Jesus’s return. From earlier in the same passage:

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

The reference to “being made alive†clearly maps to the raising of the dead to an imperishable state. Now here is the 1 Thessalonians 4 passage:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever

Clearly the same scenario is being described in both texts. Note the structural parallels. In simplified form we have:

1 Cor 15: Return of Jesus à Trumpet à resurrection of dead à transformation of the living
1 Thess 4: Return of Jesus à Trumpet à resurrection of dead à catching up of the living

It would seem rather clear that there can only be a single “fate†for those who are alive when Jesus returns, the trumpet is sounded, and the dead are raised. Granted, it is characterized somewhat differently in the 1 Thess 4 text as in the 1 Cor 15 text. But, given the trumpet is present in both contexts and the resurrection of the dead is present in both contexts, and the overall scenario is about what happens when Jesus returns, we really must conclude that there is an equivalence between “being transformed†(as per the 1 Cor 15 material) and “being caught in the air†(as per the 1 Thess text). There are simply too many factors in common between the 1 Cor 15 context and the 1 Thess 4 context to allow us to see the “transformation†as being an event other than the same event described as being “caught up in the airâ€.

If the standard “rapture†view is to be sustained in respect to the 1 Thess 4 passage, we are left with the following puzzle: We have 2 different events (the “rapture†of 1 Thess 4 and the transformation of 1 Cor 15) both occasioned by a return of Jesus, both accompanied by a trumpet blast, and both accompanied by the raising of the dead.

I suspect that the way the “rapture theologians†get around this is to posit that there are two “returns†of Jesus – one to rapture people away, followed a later “final†return. And there are two trumpet blasts – one at each return. Finally, there must be two raisings of the dead, one at each return.

That sounds mighty forced and awkward and really becomes highly unrealistic upon analysis. If different “return†events are really being described in both passages, then the 1 Thess 4 “raising of the dead†must precede the 1 Corinthians 15 raising of the dead, if rapture theology is to work. Note the implications of this:

1. In the 1 Thess 4 account, it is only those believers who are alive at the time who are raptured. So the dead who get raised are “left behind†along with those who are not raptured. This is a decidedly odd scenario – the living believers are raptured and the world chugs along with two categories of human beings - the resurrected dead and people, who were neither raptured nor raised from the dead. Do you really think that is sensible?

2. In the 1 Corinthians 15 account, describing Jesus’ 2nd “second coming†on the view I am critiquing, Paul tells us that the dead are raised. Fine. But if there has been a prior raising of the dead, then who are those raised at this 2nd return of Jesus? Presumably those who have died since the first “raising of the dead†– as per the 1 Thess 4 material. But Paul has told us the general resurrection sequence in 1 Cor 15 – first Jesus, then when he returns, everybody else. So has Paul forgotten about those raised at the first return of Jesus (the 1 Thess 4) version?

This whole scenario seems surpassingly contrived and downright silly. To be fair, perhaps I have misrepresented what rapture believers actually believe to be the case. Please advice me if this is so and / or comment on the model I have ascribed to those who accept the rapture model.

I suggest that the raising of the dead is a single discrete event in time. It only happens once. So this really does force us to see the “transformation†as being the same event as the “catching up of the livingâ€. Paul is using the “caught up in the air†image to represent the transformation that will take place in the bodies of those who are alive at the time of the resurrection.

Note how the Phillipians 3 text endorses the 1 Corinthians 15 text in respect to what actually happens to those alive at the time of Jesus’ return (if there is only return) – they are transformed, not snatched away:

20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body

Both the 1 Corinthians 15 and the Phillipians 3 texts are asserting that those who are alive at Jesus’ appearing will be changed or transformed so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but he uses poetic imagery, from biblical and political sources, to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.

Thank you Drew for your detailed post. You bring up very good points I have not seen before. I will need to study this in great detail.

cheers

 

[Watchman_2]

No, I can agree in part without having to agree with your every word. I also reject that agreeing with you personally equates agreeing with the word of God. I guess you just see everything as black and white, agree with me completely or not at all. Rejecting something you say is equal to rejecting God's word. Sorry to hear this.

Well, you were the one saying that you agreed with me. I simply attempted to clarify what that would be. To say that 'spiritual gifts' are misused is a, defacto, admission that 'spiritual gifts' exist.

If you think that "spiritual gifts" exist in the Word of God, I will always disagree with you.

 

[Drew]

Thank you Drew for your detailed post. You bring up very good points I have not seen before. I will need to study this in great detail.

cheers

I very much appreciate your willingness to consider my post. I realize the material is somewhat long, but it is heartening to know that the material gets read and, at least considered.

 

[Elijah674]

The word 'gifts' is not in the manuscripts in 12:1. So, when eliminated, the scripture reads exactly as Paul intended -

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
​

The subject is 'spiritual brethren' -- not spiritual gifts.

Of course, anyone familiar with Pentacostalism knows that the entire religion is premised upon this scripture meaning 'spiritual gifts'. It was a clear bastardization of the manuscripts by the English translators to insert the word 'gifts' therein. Absent 'spiritual gifts', they all should be Baptists.

Clearly, the progenitors of Pentacostalism were Bible hacks. For if they did just a small amount of homework, they would have realized the fallacy of such belief in 'spiritual gifts'.

However, in their zeal to profit from the ignorant masses with fake healings, etc., they took the bastardized English rendering and made a religion out of it. As one can see today, there are plenty of dupes out there who fall for such an unbiblical religion.

In 2 Thes. 2:2-4, God informs us that there will be a great falling away [apostasy] prior to Satan's reign on earth. Pentacostalism, and its sister religion Charismacostalism, represent that endtime apostasy.

you need to examine you own teaching's. The falling away is only for Virgin 'Folds' such as the last two Pure candelsticks Churchs/Folds of Rev. 3. Out of Spewed Out Virgin Laodicea who is prophesied spewed OUT, (Rev. 2:5's Warning) come the Rev. 12:17's LAST repeat from that of Laodicea! (again Virgin in Doctrine! compare John 10:16 & old Israel)

And the rest of all 'church's' belong once again to their apostate mother rome. Rev. 17:1-5.

And who is left?? Read verse 10 (Rev. 3:10) & you 'might' see (?;)) that the six Virgin fold was in the same last day time/frame as was Laodicea who becomes the Synagogue of satan. (ibid 9)

It is Philadelphia who finishes up the Lords work of Matt. 24:14 to the world. And once again there are only a REMNANT who no doubt will be 'first' USA 666 court highlited with Rev. 14:6-10's FINAL WARNING. A UN Court in the USA country? Perhaps.

And the 'Huge' Majority of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones will use the only power that the Christ/less ones used in Christ's day... 'WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR' was their CRY! And this is already being set up! And ask yourself what church of rome does not believe in Rom. 13's Caesar FORCE?? And any Christian's still there will heed the requirement of Rev. 18:4 & leave!

And the church that you are talking of??? They would fight to the finish to keep their false tongues + miracle working satanic power!

--Elijah

 

[Alabaster]

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" [gifts given by the Holy Spirit].

Just a word to you here: that is a lie of Satan.

1 Corinthians 12:9 demonstrates that Holy Spirit gives and administers spiritual gifts. THAT is in the manuscripts!

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Cor. 12 is informing us that the Holy Spirit, by utilizing the skills [gifts] given by God to us at birth, works to the benefit of the many-membered body of Christ. It is not stating that people are bestowed special gifts by the Holy Spirit once they become a true believer, as evidenced by tongue twisting.

Natural talents are not Spiritual gifts. These are given to us when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit, experiencing the fullness of the New Birth in Jesus Christ!

 

[Alabaster]

If you think that "spiritual gifts" exist in the Word of God, I will always disagree with you.

And you will continue to contradict God in so doing.

 

[Sparkey]

Let me try to dial it back and give you a chance to breathe ... sometimes discussions get heated. What I heard you say was that Paul cautioned others about something he feared, right? This is certainly true. Paul warned of the coming falling away and did indeed prophesy that some would come giving heed to seducing spirits.

What I fail to understand about your argument is the leap from when Paul said he didn't want others to be ignorant of the gifts used by the brethren ---> to the things he spoke to Timothy while admonishing him not to neglect the gift (charisma) within him, given through prophetic utterance and by the Holy Spirit.

There seems to be some confusion here. Perhaps you can clarify further?

 

[Igor]

Well, you were the one saying that you agreed with me. I simply attempted to clarify what that would be. To say that 'spiritual gifts' are misused is a, defacto, admission that 'spiritual gifts' exist.

If you think that "spiritual gifts" exist in the Word of God, I will always disagree with you.

Alright then, disagree with every word I say because you disagree with one part. As I said, black or white. I tried to rationaly support part of what you said, but consider me disagreeing with every single word you have said, and ever will say if that's the way you want it. But for everyone else, I really do feel there is a lot of misuse and fakery of spiritual gifts, and feel this needs to be addressed even if Watchman2 disagrees with me!

 

[Watchman_2]

Your allegation hinges on the use of a single word?
Okay, let's look and see, right?

πνευματικός Transliteration: pneumatikos

Part of Speech
adjective

From πνεῦμα (G4151)
Pneumatikos Outline of Biblical Usage

1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ

a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
​

2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God

3) belonging to the Divine Spirit

a) of God the Holy Spirit

b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
​

4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing
​

The Holy Spirit penned these words through Paul:
Now δέ de

concerning περί peri

spiritual πνευματικός pneumatikos

gifts, brethren, ἀδελφός adelphos

I do not want θέλω thelō

you to be unaware. ἀγνοέω agnoeō
_________________________________________________

Even if I were to concede your point (which I am not willing to do) the subject would become pneumatikos adelphos - the Brethren.

O.K. -- when you are ready to concede the point, let me know. I took the liberty to increase the size of the pertinent word in your quote -- 'adjective'.

Hence, the word pneumatikos has to be describing something. In the manuscripts [without bastardization by translators], the object described by the adjective 'spiritual' is 'brethren'.

The only correct rendering is -

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
​

"There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. ... Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, ... All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." - 1 Corinthians 12:4-5, 7-9, 11 NIV

It seems clear enough to me that Paul said that there are different kinds of gifts (there are varieties [διαίρεσις diairesis] of gifts [χάρισμα charisma]) ----> BUT they are all given by the same Spirit (but the same [αὐτός autos] Spirit [πνεῦμα pneuma]).

Paul states that all these [gifts] are given through the same spirit: "All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines." - 1 Corinthians 12:11 NIV

What "gifts" is he speaking about that are given by the Holy Spirit? He just got done listing them (Paul is good with making lists, isn't he?)

"To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues." - 1 Corinthians 12:8-10 NIV

I understand where your error lies now. If you do a bit of study in Greek of the various verbs and pronouns, you will discover that the Holy Spirit does not 'give' the gifts, but 'channels' the gifts. I direct you to v. 2-3. It is the working of the Holy Spirit which allows one to declare that Jesus is Lord and, without the Holy Spirit, folks would worship dumb idols.

This is the same thing that I tried to do when I listed the 9 mentioned gifts of the Holy Spirit earlier in thread:

Gifts of Utterance:
•The Gift of Tongues
•The Gift of Intrepretation of Tongues
•The Gift of Prophecy
Gifts of Revelation:
•The Gift of Wisdom
•The Gift of Knowledge
•The Gift of Discernment of Spirits
Power Gifts:
•The Gift of Miracles
•The Gift of Faith
•The Gifts of Healings

There are no gifts of the Holy Spirit.

As yet, I fail to understand or be persuaded that I should give more heed to what you say over what is clearly stated in the more sure word of Prophecy. Saying that there are no gifts seems at minimum contradictory. The argument that Paul didn't want others to be ignorant of the gifts used by the brethren does not mean that they were of the devil. Not in the least.

Perhaps, you are already indoctrinated into the false Pentecostal religion, which is keeping you from seeing Truth. As your last statment shows, you have yet to come to grip with the fact that Paul never stated "spiritual gifts" in v. 1.

 

[Watchman_2]

Personal interpretation that goes far beyond God's intent usually has its origins in fear. What are you fearing,Watchman? Don't answer me. Meditate on this.

I pray in tongues about you. Be blessed!

Did you know what you prayed or was it gibberish?

 

[Sparkey]

Re: The Pentecostal Movement

Somebody mentioned Marjoe Gortner earlier in thread, Hitch maybe. Marjoe was involved in the making of an Oscar winning mocumentary about the misuse of God's good gifts within the Pentecostal movement during certain few revival tent meetings of the 60's and 70's. He admitted his guilt and told the story of his greed corrupted parents who used his talent for mimicry to have him become the youngest (at the tender age of 4) ordained minister of his day.

Proverbs 25:14 Like clouds and wind without rain is a man who boasts of gifts he does not give.
English (NASB) Strong's Root Form (Hebrew)
Like clouds נשיא nasiy'

and wind רוח ruwach

without אין 'ayin

rain גשם geshem

Is a man איש 'iysh

who boasts הלל halal

of his gifts מתת mattath

falsely. שקר sheqer [/b]

Jude spoke of these:
"Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion. These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit. But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life." - Jude 1:11-21 NIV

It doesn't matter if the subject of Paul's sentence is Spirituals or Spiritual Brethren ---> they are brethren and we would do well to emulate their behaviors and earnestly desire the gifts that Watchman admits the Holy Spirit (who is utterly apart from all sin) "channels". It is critical to follow our Lord and avoid self-seeking behavior. We can not serve God -AND- Mammon. All things are to be done for His glory and we are to avoid Balaam's error (seeking profit) and the error of Kore (not following God appointed authority). This is the root of the corruption found, not the good things that the Holy Spirit "channels" and gives to those who seek Him, the Brethren.

I would agree with Igor who states, "But for everyone else, I really do feel there is a lot of misuse and fakery of spiritual gifts, and feel this needs to be addressed." It is good to be informed on both sides of the issue. We are to earnestly seek all those good things that the Lord has for us and not forbid them. We are also admonished to be wise as serpents while remaining harmless as doves.

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah here:

For every Gift God has, satan has a counterfiet, death, Second Coming! sun stuff! tongues fo languages, hell + Christ is here in person garbage & you name it?? Judes WINDS are coming out of satans 'infested' woodwork!

But who & what 'spirit' works 'miracles' who do not TEACH Truth, + have OPEN SINNERS IN THEIR CONGREGATION! Josh. 7:12 last part of the verse DOCUMENTS that it is NOT CHRIST OR THE HOLY SPIRIT!

And tongues & the ANSWER OF PRAYER from Christ?? Are you trying to sell us the Brooklin bridge?
God say's that HE WILL NOT EVEN HEAR YOUR PRAYERS (Isa. 59:1-2) while any ARE PARTAKERS OF THIS DOCUMENTED STUFF that you even admit to!

If 'i' am called down, I will look up the scripture for you. 2 Tim. 3:16 & Matt. 4:4. But from here on it will just be street talk.

Tongues? A Voice? Eternal Covenant? Eternal Gospel?
Lets start with 'remember', remember from when? God is the same Eternally! Just say that I loaned this person ten dollars, and next year I said, do you remember that you owe me that $10? He said that he paid me back the next day! Well, how long was that remember for? Did it have any starting place & ending condition? Surely! But what about with the immortal Godhead?

OK: The 4th 'Eternal' Covenant Commandment started with the Word of Remember the 7th. Day Sabbath. Remember from where? It was written down on Mount Sinai. But where did it start? Or when & why? Could the Godhead be truthful using Their Word Remember if there was not always an after truth? Even being the Eternal Covenant of the Universe that told us why Lucifer fell? And what sin is! The breaking of this Law! 1 John 3:4

And a Voice? (tongues, tongues of other worlds? tongues of [angels]?? The Godhead talked to Adam & Eve in a Voice, They talked to Cain in a voice, God even talked with before he became Abraham, & given Verbal Eternal Covenant laws +! The Godhead talked to mankind up to the time of the Written Covenant, & up to the time that they told Moses to tell God that they did not want to hear God speak, but that they would have Moses speak what God Commanded. And the Godhead OK'ed that request.

Then the 'tongues' or languages?? After the flood at the Tower of Babel (confusion --Hello!) two of the Godhead put all the languages in effect, to stop the building of the tower. (and other reasons, huh?) So we see that originally the Lords creation had only one language & God spoke with Their creation as They so choose.. in at least a voice!

We find that in Acts when the Early Rain of Joel 2 & Acts 2 came about, that there were many different .. 'devout men, out of EVERY NATION UNDER HEAVEN.' It was Pentecost & they were all 'in one place'! Wow! What confusion would come from this if the Godhead were the Order Of Confusion! But they are not. We know what happened!? And no, it was not a bunch of disorderly gibberish as we hear of today.

Remember again that for every perfect gift that the Godhead has, satan has tried to copy it! (and Paul's tongues? Acts 21:37 & 22 ibid. 1-3)

This will all happen again! Think of the little United Nations as using New York as the example? In the latter Rain we will again see this 'Perfect' Gift abound! Acts 3:19. Also think of the 144000 in the real United Nation court trial, with the Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit having all listeners hearing this trials proceedings in their own native language, if need be.

And one last side/thought. What does one think made Saul in Acts 9:4-5 be 'pricked' in his heart by the Holy Ghost, if it was not the 'testimony of Christ' at Stephen's trial, and with Saul being a party to his stoning to death while Stephen was 'filled with the Holy Ghost'! Acts 7:55 And Eccl. 3:15 Documents that this will ALL be done again!

 

[Alabaster]

Did you know what you prayed or was it gibberish?

I don't have to know. Holy Spirit was talking to God. He knows.