The Pentacostal Movement

[Watchman_2]

Actually, thanks be to Jesus Christ and His awesome word, I am not often wrong, and especially in this area, praise God! Have a blessed day, Watchman!

Enjoy your trip!

 

[Igor]

Good morning everyone!

Once again, in my posts in this thread in particlar, I am not referring to any individual or any individual's post unless I actually quote it. Please don't misunderstand or take it personally.

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts.

Hence, any pseudo-christian religion based upon "spiritual gifts" should be avoided.

Accordingly, Pentacostalism is a false religion. See 1 Tim. 4:1.

I still haven’t seen you explain how 1 Tim 4:1 is related to gifts not existing. I’ll go ahead and quote it here so that everyone doesn’t have to individually look it up:

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. (1 Tim 4:1, NIV)

This is only saying that some people will do this. That’s not the same as saying spiritual gifts from God do not exist. There is very much evidence in the Bible that they do exist, despite the adding of the word “gifts†to the English translation of one verse. We all know that Jesus did many things that fall under the description of spiritual gifts, and Jesus himself said:

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. (John 14:12, NIV)

Since there is no claim in scripture that other spirits, demons, etc can’t also produce some of the same effects, this verse makes perfect sense that some will fall away, and it certaily supports the statements of "other spirits" infiltrating the Christian church to decieve and lead some peopel astray. But 1 Tim 4:1 doesn’t seem to say anything about the non-existence of spiritual gifts from God. Interpreting this verse this way seems like a reaction of throwing away the good with the bad to me.

 

[Sparkey]

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" in the Bible manuscripts.

Hence, any pseudo-christian religion based upon "spiritual gifts" should be avoided.

Accordingly, Pentacostalism is a false religion. See 1 Tim. 4:1.

Does the bible mention the gift of the Holy Spirit? I think maybe YES. Can we read about the "Gift of Tongues"? Again, I think maybe yes. What about the other gifts that can be found and described in the bible.

Gifts of Utterance:

• The Gift of Tongues
• The Gift of Intrepretation of Tongues
• The Gift of Prophecy

Gifts of Revelation:

• The Gift of Wisdom
• The Gift of Knowledge
• The Gift of Discernment of Spirits

Power Gifts:

• The Gift of Miracles
• The Gift of Faith
• The Gifts of Healings

Paul said he would not have us ignorant of spirituals. The idea that there are no "spirituals" demands ignoring the fact that God is directly involved with our growth and it is by His Spirit alone that we are enabled and empowered to His service.

Did Jesus say, "Greater things shall ye do," ? What did that mean?

What did the Holy Spirit mean when He wrote through Paul's pen to admonish us to "covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." - 1 Corinthians 12:31 KJV The "more excellent way" is to follow after love and this may very well be the downfall that some who have chased after 'spirituals' have experienced. I do trust God to get us there but would it not be utterly strange to say that we should strongly desire "the best gifts" when there was nothing that could / would be given? Ask, and it shall be answered, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened. "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask."

"These things have I spoken unto you, being [yet] present with you. But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe." - John 14:25-29 KJV

GIFT: χάρισμα, Transliteration: charisma

Part of Speech
neuter noun

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own

2) the gift of divine grace

3) the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue

4) the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith

5) grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit​

It seems that you are trying to define the word to mean something other than its clear face value. I would respectfully disagree with the concept behind this thought. God is real, by faith we know that He continues with us through His spirit and we are told, each man, to work out his/her own salvation. It is critical to study (do the work) to show oneself approved (get the benefit) and be able to rightly divide the word of truth. This can only be done through the actions and direct involvement of the Holy Spirit, our Teacher.

 

[reba]

Some times we can really understand why the scriptures say...

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

 

[Igor]

The word 'gifts' is not in the manuscripts in 12:1. So, when eliminated, the scripture reads exactly as Paul intended -

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
​

The subject is 'spiritual brethren' -- not spiritual gifts.

Of course, anyone familiar with Pentacostalism knows that the entire religion is premised upon this scripture meaning 'spiritual gifts'. It was a clear bastardization of the manuscripts by the English translators to insert the word 'gifts' therein. Absent 'spiritual gifts', they all should be Baptists.

Clearly, the progenitors of Pentacostalism were Bible hacks. For if they did just a small amount of homework, they would have realized the fallacy of such belief in 'spiritual gifts'.

However, in their zeal to profit from the ignorant masses with fake healings, etc., they took the bastardized English rendering and made a religion out of it. As one can see today, there are plenty of dupes out there who fall for such an unbiblical religion.

In 2 Thes. 2:2-4, God informs us that there will be a great falling away [apostasy] prior to Satan's reign on earth. Pentacostalism, and its sister religion Charismacostalism, represent that endtime apostasy.

The punctuation marks in the English translations of scripture are not part of the original text and are not considered inspired. Your quote of 1 Cor 12:1 could just as easily have read:

"1Co 12:1 Now concerning spirituals, brethren I would not have you ignorant."

This use of the comma changes the meaning entirely!

Also, I'm curious, how would eliminating the word "gifts" turn everyone into Baptists? That just doesn't make sense to me. I have read Baptist literature that claims the only way to become "Mature in the Lord" is to become an official member of a Baptist church. But even that didn't seem to involve removing the spiritual gifts from the Bible. How did you come to that conclusion?

 

[Igor]

Some times we can really understand why the scriptures say...

1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

LOL. You are so right, Reba. I wonder if that was being given to us today if it might also have included us men too!!!!!

 

[Watchman_2]

Good morning everyone!

Once again, in my posts in this thread in particlar, I am not referring to any individual or any individual's post unless I actually quote it. Please don't misunderstand or take it personally.

I have not read anything that you have written except this post.

I still haven’t seen you explain how 1 Tim 4:1 is related to gifts not existing. I’ll go ahead and quote it here so that everyone doesn’t have to individually look it up:

I never said that there are not gifts. There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" [gifts given by the Holy Spirit].

God gives everyone, christian and non-christian, gifts. See. Rom. 11:29.

This is only saying that some people will do this. That’s not the same as saying spiritual gifts from God do not exist. There is very much evidence in the Bible that they do exist, despite the adding of the word “gifts” to the English translation of one verse. We all know that Jesus did many things that fall under the description of spiritual gifts, and Jesus himself said:

Since there is no claim in scripture that other spirits, demons, etc can’t also produce some of the same effects, this verse makes perfect sense that some will fall away, and it certaily supports the statements of "other spirits" infiltrating the Christian church to decieve and lead some peopel astray. But 1 Tim 4:1 doesn’t seem to say anything about the non-existence of spiritual gifts from God. Interpreting this verse this way seems like a reaction of throwing away the good with the bad to me.

1 Tim. 4:1 idicates that some [Pentacostals for one group] give heed to seducing [which are Satanic] spirits [i.e. 'tongues'] and doctrines of devils [beliefs that would lead one to worship Satan -- i.e. 'Rapture']. It has nothing to do with the gifts of God that all receive [identified in 1 Cor. 12].

 

[Sparkey]

1 Tim. 4:1 idicates that some [Pentacostals for one group] give heed to seducing [which are Satanic] spirits [i.e. 'tongues'] and doctrines of devils [beliefs that would lead one to worship Satan -- i.e. 'Rapture']. It has nothing to do with the gifts of God that all receive [identified in 1 Cor. 12].

The parenthetical statements found in your quote are your words, right?

 

[theLords]

1 Tim. 4:1 idicates that some [Christian Identity for one group] give heed to seducing [which are Satanic] spirits [i.e. 'racists'] and doctrines of devils [beliefs that would lead one to worship Satan -- i.e. 'Racism'].

What about the Christian Identity Movement? Do they count as apostates who will fall away?

Here are a few excerpts from the Wikipedia article about this (emphasis mine).

Christian Identity
Christian Identity is a label applied to a wide variety of loosely affiliated believers and churches with a racialized theology. Many promote a Eurocentric interpretation of Christianity.

According to Chester L. Quarles, professor of criminal justice at the University of Mississippi, some of the Christian Identity movement's followers hold that non-Caucasian peoples have no souls, and can therefore never earn God's favor or be saved.[1] Believers in the theology affirm that Jesus Christ paid only for the sins of the House of Israel and the House of Judah and that salvation must be received through both redemption and race.

In many variations of Christian Identity thought, a key commonality is British Israelism, which teaches that many white Europeans are the literal descendants of the Israelites through the ten tribes which were taken away into captivity by the armies of Assyria. Christian Identity asserts in addition that these (White European) Israelites are still God's Chosen People, that Jesus was an Israelite of the tribe of Judah, and that modern Jews are not at all Israelites nor Hebrews, but are instead descended from people with Turco-Mongolian blood, or Khazars, or are descendants of the Biblical Esau-Edom, who traded his birthright for a bowl of lentil stew. (Genesis 25:29–34).

"...Modern Identity Christianity evolved from the nineteenth-century doctrine of British Israelism. The ideological transformations that would arise from [a theology originally favorable to the Jews] into the racist and anti-Semitic doctrines of Christian Identity took place in the interwar years of the twentieth century....While it is impossible to locate the precise moment at which modern Identity Christianity was born, several key events are particularly notable. A 1930 Bible conference brought together a number of leading American British Israelites, including Howard Rand, the head of the Anglo-Saxon Federation of America...” [2]

The Christian Identity movement first received widespread attention by mainstream media in 1984, when the white nationalist organization known as The Order embarked on a murderous crime spree before being taken down by the FBI. Tax resister and militia movement organizer Gordon Kahl, whose death in a 1983 shootout with authorities helped inspire The Order, also had connections to the Christian Identity movement.[3][4] The movement returned to public attention in 1992 and 1993, in the wake of the deadly Ruby Ridge confrontation, when newspapers discovered that former Green Beret and right-wing Randy Weaver had at least a loose association with Christian Identity believers.[5]

No single document expresses the Christian Identity belief system; however, adherents draw upon arguments from linguistic, historical, archaeological and Biblical sources to support their beliefs. Estimates are that these groups have 2,000 to 50,000 members in the United States of America,[6] and an unknown number in Canada and the rest of the British Commonwealth.

Christian Identity believers reject the beliefs of most contemporary Christian denominations. They claim that modern Christian churches are teaching a heresy: the belief that God's promises to Israel (through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) have been expanded to create a spiritual people of "Israel", which constitutes the Christian "Church". In turn, most modern Christian denominations and organizations denounce Christian Identity as heresy and condemn the use of the Christian Bible as a basis for promoting anti-Semitism. Adherents of Christian Identity claim that Europeans are the true descendants of the Biblical Jacob, hence they are the true Israel, and that it is those who are against the interests of European-descended Christians that are the true anti-Semites.

Ideology, Tenets and Beliefs
Christian Identity asserts that the white people of Europe or Caucasians in general are God's servant people according to the promises that were given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It further asserts that the early European tribes were really the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel and therefore the rightful heirs to God's promises, and God's chosen people.

Two House Theology
Like British Israelites, Christian Identity (CI) adherents believe in Two House Theology.[27] However the major difference between British Israelism and CI is that British Israelites have always maintained that Jews descend from the tribe of Judah.[28] In contrast, while also maintaining a Two House distinction, Christian Identity proponents believe that the true lineal descendants of Judah, are not modern Jews, but instead are also White Europeans, alongside the House of Israel.[29][30]

Adamites and pre-Adamites
A major tenet of Christian Identity is Pre-Adamism. Christian Identity followers believe that Adam and Eve gave birth to the White race only and that that Adam and Eve were preceded by lesser races non-Caucasian races often (though not always) identified as "beasts of the field" (Gen. 1:25); for example, the "beasts" which wore sackcloth and cried unto God (Jonah 3:8) are considered Blacks.[31] To support their theory on the racial identity of Adam, Christian Identity proponents point out that the Hebrew etymology of the word 'Adam' (Insert by Theo: Does this sound like something that has been said on this thread?) translates as 'be ruddy, red, to show blood (in the face)' often quoting from James Strong's Hebrew Dictionary #119 (1890) and from this conclude that only Caucasians or people with light white skin can blush or turn rosy in the face (as hemoglobin only appears under pale skin).[32] Proponents of Christian Identity believe that Adam was only created 6,000 years ago, while the other non-Caucasian races from far older epochs on the other continents.[33][34]

Dual Seedliner Christian Identity proponents (see Serpent Seed), believe that Eve was seduced by the Snake (Satan), shared her fallen state with Adam by lying with him, and gave birth to twins with different fathers: Satan's child Cain and Adam's son Abel. Cain then became the progenitor of the Jews in his subsequent matings with the non-Adamic races. This is referred to as the two-seedline doctrine. This doctrine is a revival of a medieval folk belief ascribing the ancestry of legendary monsters such as Grendel to Cain.[35]

A big influence on the Christian Identity movement's views on pre-Adamism was a book published in 1900 by Charles Carroll called The Negro a Beast or In the Image of God. Carroll concludes in the book that the White race was made in the image and likeness of God and that Adam gave birth to the White race only, while Negros are pre-Adamite beasts and could not of possibly been made in God's image and likeness because they are beastlike, immoral and ugly.[36] Carroll claimed that the pre-Adamite races such as blacks did not have souls. Carroll believed that race mixing was an insult to God and spoiled God's racial plan of creation. According to Carroll the mixing of races had also lead to the delusive errors of atheism and evolution. Carroll claimed that Miscegnation became in time "the parent of atheism, with it's theory of evolution".[37]​

I just thought people might want to know what is really being discussed here.

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/futurist-discussion-origin-nations-34706/

 

[Watchman_2]

Does the bible mention the gift of the Holy Spirit? I think maybe YES.

Yes it does! See Acts 1:4,8. The Holy Spirit is God's gift to mankind.

Can we read about the "Gift of Tongues"? Again, I think maybe yes. What about the other gifts that can be found and described in the bible.



Gifts of Utterance:

• The Gift of Tongues
• The Gift of Intrepretation of Tongues
• The Gift of Prophecy

Gifts of Revelation:

• The Gift of Wisdom
• The Gift of Knowledge
• The Gift of Discernment of Spirits

Power Gifts:

• The Gift of Miracles
• The Gift of Faith
• The Gifts of Healings

I think that my post to Igor above clears up my position. I am not claiming that people do not receive gifts from God. Indeed, there are folks that are gifted with understanding foreign languages, those that are good teachers, administrators, doctors, etc. Each is given a gift so that they can function in life.

There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" [gifts given by the Holy Spirit].

Paul said he would not have us ignorant of spirituals.

No -- he did not. The subject is 'spiritual brethren'.

The idea that there are no "spirituals" demands ignoring the fact that God is directly involved with our growth and it is by His Spirit alone that we are enabled and empowered to His service.

Did Jesus say, "Greater things shall ye do," ? What did that mean?

What did the Holy Spirit mean when He wrote through Paul's pen to admonish us to "covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." - 1 Corinthians 12:31 KJV The "more excellent way" is to follow after love and this may very well be the downfall that some who have chased after 'spirituals' have experienced. I do trust God to get us there but would it not be utterly strange to say that we should strongly desire "the best gifts" when there was nothing that could / would be given? Ask, and it shall be answered, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door will be opened. "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask."




GIFT: χάρισμα, Transliteration: charisma

Part of Speech
neuter noun

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) a favour with which one receives without any merit of his own

2) the gift of divine grace

3) the gift of faith, knowledge, holiness, virtue

4) the economy of divine grace, by which the pardon of sin and eternal salvation is appointed to sinners in consideration of the merits of Christ laid hold of by faith

5) grace or gifts denoting extraordinary powers, distinguishing certain Christians and enabling them to serve the church of Christ, the reception of which is due to the power of divine grace operating on their souls by the Holy Spirit
​

It seems that you are trying to define the word to mean something other than its clear face value. I would respectfully disagree with the concept behind this thought. God is real, by faith we know that He continues with us through His spirit and we are told, each man, to work out his/her own salvation. It is critical to study (do the work) to show oneself approved (get the benefit) and be able to rightly divide the word of truth. This can only be done through the actions and direct involvement of the Holy Spirit, our Teacher.

I don't think it is necessary to go through this part of your quote because you are entirely off base with your assumption that the subject is 'spirtuals'.

1 Cor. 12 is informing us that the Holy Spirit, by utilizing the skills [gifts] given by God to us at birth, works to the benefit of the many-membered body of Christ. It is not stating that people are bestowed special gifts by the Holy Spirit once they become a true believer, as evidenced by tongue twisting.

 

[Sparkey]

Of interest to me is the admonition that Paul gave to Timothy that he not neglect his gift (charisma) that was given to him through dia prophēteia prophetic utterance and the laying on of hand by the elders.




1Ti 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.


1Ti 4:2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.


1Ti 4:3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.


1Ti 4:4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,


1Ti 4:5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.


1Ti 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.


1Ti 4:7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.


1Ti 4:8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.


1Ti 4:9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance


1Ti 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.


1Ti 4:11 Command and teach these things.


1Ti 4:12 Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.


1Ti 4:13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.


1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.


4:14 μὴ ἀμέλει τοῦ ἐν σοὶ χαρίσματος ὃ ἐδόθη σοι διὰ προφητείας μετὰ ἐπιθέσεως τῶν χειρῶν τοῦ πρεσβυτερίου

English (NASB) Strong's Root Form (Greek)

Do not μή mē

neglect ἀμελέω ameleō

the spiritual gift χάρισμα charisma

within ἐν en

you, σύ sy

which ὅς hos

was bestowed δίδωμι didōmi

on you ἀντεῖπον anteipon

through διά dia

prophetic utterance προφητεία prophēteia

with μετά meta

the laying on ἐπίθεσις epithesis

of hands χείρ cheir

by the presbytery.​

 

[Igor]

I never said that there are not gifts. There is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" [gifts given by the Holy Spirit].

God gives everyone, christian and non-christian, gifts. See. Rom. 11:29.

Here's Romans 11:29;

for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Rom 11:29, NIV)

So then what of Rom 12:6:

We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. (Romans 12:6, NIV)

The exact same word (charisma) is translated to "gift" in each verse by the same author. Your statement above would then have to concede that God gives the gift of prophesy (as well as other gifts listed in the next few verses) to everyone, including non-Christians. In order to accept what you have said, I would have to accept that every person in the world is a prophet of God or, at the very least, not everyone that has the gift of prophesy from God is a Christian. Sorry, I just can't follow that.

However, I agree with you completely that spiritual gifts are being misused and faked on a massive scale. This seriously needs to be addressed and corrected by our Christian leaders!

 

[Watchman_2]

The punctuation marks in the English translations of scripture are not part of the original text and are not considered inspired. Your quote of 1 Cor 12:1 could just as easily have read:

"1Co 12:1 Now concerning spirituals, brethren I would not have you ignorant."

This use of the comma changes the meaning entirely!

See post No. 114. I have the correct rendering there. The word 'spiritual' is an adjective only. Hence, in your rendering, you have changed an adjective into a noun.

Also, I'm curious, how would eliminating the word "gifts" turn everyone into Baptists? That just doesn't make sense to me. I have read Baptist literature that claims the only way to become "Mature in the Lord" is to become an official member of a Baptist church. But even that didn't seem to involve removing the spiritual gifts from the Bible. How did you come to that conclusion?

Well, Pentecostals believe that they are the only 'true' Christians too [because they do tongue twisting]. Catholics believe the same about their religion as well. So, I am not sure that the Baptist claim of exclusivity is any different from other religions' similar false claim.

I made that statement because of the beliefs/rituals that distinguish the two religions. IMO, what separates Pentacostals from the beliefs of Baptists are the emphasis on 'spiritual gifts'. To my knowledge, Baptists also subscribe to Satan's Doctrine -- the Rapture.

 

[Watchman_2]

The parenthetical statements found in your quote are your words, right?

Correct...I should have stated so.

 

[cleanfreak]

1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.


4:14 μὴ ἀμέλει τοῦ ἐν σοὶ χαρίσματος ὃ ἐδόθη σοι διὰ προφητείας μετὰ ἐπιθέσεως τῶν χειρῶν τοῦ πρεσβυτερίου

English (NASB) Strong's Root Form (Greek)

Do not μή mē

neglect ἀμελέω ameleō

the spiritual gift χάρισμα charisma

within ἐν en

you, σύ sy

which ὅς hos

was bestowed δίδωμι didōmi

on you ἀντεῖπον anteipon

through διά dia

prophetic utterance προφητεία prophēteia

with μετά meta

the laying on ἐπίθεσις epithesis

of hands χείρ cheir

by the presbytery.​

awesome post. I love how you broke this down in the Greek. Very easy to read and understand. well done.

 

[Watchman_2]

What about the Christian Identity Movement? Do they count as apostates who will fall away?

This topic is about Pentacostalism. I have been accused of diverting topics. So, I will refrain from answering here. I really haven't studied that movement much nor am I aware that they are a church.

 

[Watchman_2]

Here's Romans 11:29;


So then what of Rom 12:6:



The exact same word (charisma) is translated to "gift" in each verse by the same author. Your statement above would then have to concede that God gives the gift of prophesy (as well as other gifts listed in the next few verses) to everyone, including non-Christians. In order to accept what you have said, I would have to accept that every person in the world is a prophet of God or, at the very least, not everyone that has the gift of prophesy from God is a Christian. Sorry, I just can't follow that.

I never said that everyone receives the same gift [skill] from God. God gives each a skill based upon foreknowledge.

However, I agree with you completely that spiritual gifts are being misused and faked on a massive scale. This seriously needs to be addressed and corrected by our Christian leaders!

Well, you have not agreed with me. If you agree with me [and the word of God], then you have to state that there is no such thing as "spiritual gifts" [gifts given by the Holy Spirit].

 

[reba]

Well, Pentecostals believe that they are the only 'true' Christians too [because they do tongue twisting]. Catholics believe the same about their religion as well. So, I am not sure that the Baptist claim of exclusivity is any different from other religions' similar false claim.

Being i was born and raised in the Pentecostalism i can tell you the above statement is not a truth.

 

[cleanfreak]

[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Well, Pentecostals believe that they are the only 'true' Christians too [because they do tongue twisting]. Catholics believe the same about their religion as well. So, I am not sure that the Baptist claim of exclusivity is any different from other religions' similar false claim.

This is another general assumption. 2

[/COLOR][/SIZE]
I made that statement because of the beliefs/rituals that distinguish the two religions. IMO, what separates Pentacostals from the beliefs of Baptists are the emphasis on 'spiritual gifts'. To my knowledge, Baptists also subscribe to Satan's Doctrine -- the Rapture.

So the word rapture is not in the Bible. I will agree to that, but the word 'harpazō' ( caught up) is used. How do you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:17?

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[Igor]

[/COLOR][/SIZE]

See post No. 114. I have the correct rendering there. The word 'spiritual' is an adjective only. Hence, in your rendering, you have changed an adjective into a noun.

Interesting. I do see your point there.