The Pentacostal Movement

[Sam21]

I expected some backward, ignorant response like this to ooze out.

YOU don't understand. Glory was given to God not ONLY by the dancers, who are each Spirit-filled women, but also the house of God who worshiped God with them---in Spirit and in truth.

Maybe you have a flesh problem, which is why the spiritual aspect went right past you.

If you don't have a flesh problem then you have a problem with lying. I have lived long enough to know the young ladies have probably been deceived and do not realize how ridiculous they were acting, now the old stinkers who promoted such nonsense will answer to God and it will not be pretty. Question,are you a teenager? Any half way mature christian knows that you cannot promote spiritually by promoting flesh,duh and double duh. Did you know that the worship of pagan gods involved girls showing flesh(and giving flesh)? If you are female do you have any idea what it does to the male to watch something like that?, if the same thing came on secular TV a christian male would immediately change the station...are you that far from the reality of this world?

 

[Sam21]

Just a word to you here: that is a lie of Satan.

1 Corinthians 12:9 demonstrates that Holy Spirit gives and administers spiritual gifts. THAT is in the manuscripts!

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;




Natural talents are not Spiritual gifts. These are given to us when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit, experiencing the fullness of the New Birth in Jesus Christ!

I agree with this post(see I do not always disagree with you).

 

[Sam21]

Alright then, disagree with every word I say because you disagree with one part. As I said, black or white. I tried to rationaly support part of what you said, but consider me disagreeing with every single word you have said, and ever will say if that's the way you want it. But for everyone else, I really do feel there is a lot of misuse and fakery of spiritual gifts, and feel this needs to be addressed even if Watchman2 disagrees with me!

Good reply, I agree.

 

[francisdesales]

Well, Pentecostals believe that they are the only 'true' Christians too [because they do tongue twisting]. Catholics believe the same about their religion as well. So, I am not sure that the Baptist claim of exclusivity is any different from other religions' similar false claim.

I don't know what Pentacostals believe on this subject, but I think you are misrepresenting the Catholic point of view on this idea. It is not that "Catholicism is the only true religion", but that it is the fullness of the truth. Many Christian denominations express truth, as well - and this represents the Catholic faith, such as "Jesus rose from the dead" or "Jesus was born of a virgin". These are Catholic beliefs and our brothers are expressing our faith (which hasn't totally been lost by the numerous divisions yet)

We consider many Christians as mysteriously "Catholic" by nature of their baptism and a number of common beliefs. That is why we don't "rebaptize" most Christians who want to become fully Catholic. There is a different mindset here.

I don't want to highjack this thread, but I just wanted to clarify. No need to respond.

Regards

 

[Watchman_2]

I don't know what Pentacostals believe on this subject, but I think you are misrepresenting the Catholic point of view on this idea. It is not that "Catholicism is the only true religion", but that it is the fullness of the truth. Many Christian denominations express truth, as well - and this represents the Catholic faith, such as "Jesus rose from the dead" or "Jesus was born of a virgin". These are Catholic beliefs and our brothers are expressing our faith (which hasn't totally been lost by the numerous divisions yet)

We consider many Christians as mysteriously "Catholic" by nature of their baptism and a number of common beliefs. That is why we don't "rebaptize" most Christians who want to become fully Catholic. There is a different mindset here.

I don't want to highjack this thread, but I just wanted to clarify. No need to respond.

Regards

I am not Catholic, so, I can only go by what I have been told. The quotes below were claimed to be straight from the Catechism by a devout Catholic, and confirmed by a few others -

all the means of salvation subsists in the Catholic Church alone. . .

. . . all men are saved through the Catholic Church . . .

I will defend the Bride of Christ which is the Catholic Church

Hence, based upon that information, I did not misrepresent anything.

 

[Hitch]

I don't know what Pentacostals believe on this subject, but I think you are misrepresenting the Catholic point of view on this idea. It is not that "Catholicism is the only true religion", but that it is the fullness of the truth. Many Christian denominations express truth, as well - and this represents the Catholic faith, such as "Jesus rose from the dead" or "Jesus was born of a virgin". These are Catholic beliefs and our brothers are expressing our faith (which hasn't totally been lost by the numerous divisions yet)

We consider many Christians as mysteriously "Catholic" by nature of their baptism and a number of common beliefs. That is why we don't "rebaptize" most Christians who want to become fully Catholic. There is a different mindset here.

I don't want to highjack this thread, but I just wanted to clarify. No need to respond.

Regards

Catholic Church only true church, Vatican says - World - CBC News

The document adds that Protestant denominations — called Christian Communities born out of the Reformation — are not true churches, but ecclesial communities.

Im with you Fran this is a side issue but it is important.

H

 

[Watchman_2]

Just a word to you here: that is a lie of Satan.

If I lied, show my one instance in the Bible manuscripts where "spiritual gifts" exists.

1 Corinthians 12:9 demonstrates that Holy Spirit gives and administers spiritual gifts. THAT is in the manuscripts!

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

Those are the skills [gifts] given to each at birth. The Holy Spirit only channels those gifts for the betterment of the many-membered body of Christ.

Natural talents are not Spiritual gifts.

True -- Natural talents [gifts] are given by God at birth. There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts'.

These are given to us when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit, experiencing the fullness of the New Birth in Jesus Christ!

More Pentecostal/Charismacostal drivel.

 

[Watchman_2]

Let me try to dial it back and give you a chance to breathe ... sometimes discussions get heated. What I heard you say was that Paul cautioned others about something he feared, right? This is certainly true. Paul warned of the coming falling away and did indeed prophesy that some would come giving heed to seducing spirits.

There is no evidence to my knowledge that Paul feared anything. He was simply explaining endtime phenomenon.

What I fail to understand about your argument is the leap from when Paul said he didn't want others to be ignorant of the gifts used by the brethren ---> to the things he spoke to Timothy while admonishing him not to neglect the gift (charisma) within him, given through prophetic utterance and by the Holy Spirit.

There seems to be some confusion here. Perhaps you can clarify further?

There is no confusion at all. Paul never stated that he did not want others to be ignorant of the gifts used by the brethren. Paul did not want them to be ignorant of the fact that it was the Holy Spirit working through them that did things for the betterment of the many-membered body. In other words, it wasn't about glorifying them -- but, giving credit to God.

I briefly scrolled through your anonymous post regarding 1 Tim. 4. Somehow, you read into v. 14 that 'spiritual gifts' exist, when the scripture does not state that at all.

1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
​

The two emboldened clauses contradict each other in English. Either the gift already existed in him or it was given to him. And, if the latter, it states that it was given by prophecy -- not the Holy Spirit.

The issue is resolved by the word rendered as 'in' -

G1722
ἐν
en
en
A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); "in", at, (up-) on, by, etc.: - about, after, against, + almost, X altogether, among, X as, at, before, between, (here-) by (+ all means), for (. . . sake of), + give self wholly to, (here-) in (-to, -wardly), X mightily, (because) of, (up-) on, [open-] ly, X outwardly, one, X quickly, X shortly, [speedi-] ly, X that, X there (-in, -on), through (-out), (un-) to(-ward), under, when, where (-with), while, with (-in). Often used in compounds, with substantially the same import; rarely with verbs of motion, and then not to indicate direction, except (elliptically) by a separate (and different) prep.
​

The gift [charisma] was already in him. Hence, you erred in your interpretation of 1 Tim. 4:14.

 

[Watchman_2]

Alright then, disagree with every word I say because you disagree with one part. As I said, black or white. I tried to rationaly support part of what you said, but consider me disagreeing with every single word you have said, and ever will say if that's the way you want it. But for everyone else, I really do feel there is a lot of misuse and fakery of spiritual gifts, and feel this needs to be addressed even if Watchman2 disagrees with me!

I simply cannot be associated with the unbiblical concept of "spiritual gifts". As long as you believe in that phantom concept, it is best that we stand in disagreement.

 

[Watchman_2]

I don't have to know. Holy Spirit was talking to God. He knows.

Then you didn't pray in 'tongues'.

 

[Alabaster]

If you don't have a flesh problem then you have a problem with lying.

Bzzzt. Try again, Sherlock.

I have lived long enough to know the young ladies have probably been deceived and do not realize how ridiculous they were acting, now the old stinkers who promoted such nonsense will answer to God and it will not be pretty.

Length of days is obviously not a criteria for righteous thinking. Those ladies are each Spirit-filled and led women, many with husbands and children. One is one of our pastors, who has established a dance school in the church that teaches dance in a righteous way--for worship unto God. She isn't an old stinker, but a wonderful woman of God, who lives a life of excellence.

These women get together and pray and worship together when they practice. These women cannot serve in the dance ministry in the church unless they exhibit godliness and spiritual fruit in their lives.

So, you are DEAD wrong in your carnal judgment.

Question,are you a teenager?

No I am a grandmother. Are you an old stinker?

Any half way mature christian knows that you cannot promote spiritually by promoting flesh,duh and double duh. Did you know that the worship of pagan gods involved girls showing flesh(and giving flesh)?

This is simply trash coming from a mind fixed on the low. There was no flesh involved!

If you are female do you have any idea what it does to the male to watch something like that?, if the same thing came on secular TV a christian male would immediately change the station...are you that far from the reality of this world?

Our godly men rejoice in the worship of God along with us. Giving God worship is an exciting and joyful thing. He is in it and He blesses us in it. Their minds are far from the flesh.

You need to be delivered of something, that is apparent. I will pray for you.

 

[Alabaster]

[/B]

If I lied, show my one instance in the Bible manuscripts where "spiritual gifts" exists.
[/I][/B]

Those are the skills [gifts] given to each at birth. The Holy Spirit only channels those gifts for the betterment of the many-membered body of Christ.



True -- Natural talents [gifts] are given by God at birth. There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts'.



More Pentecostal/Charismacostal drivel.

You are just in denial. I already showed one verse among two in the full passage offered earlier in the thread where the Spirit is said to give spiritual gifts. If the Spirit gives us a special ability, it is a spiritual ability, and it is a gift.

You are hung up on this probably out of a fear of the power of God. You effectively stifle Him in your fear. It is a spiritual stronghold that He wants to break down. Let Him. His life and His fullness lived in and through us is a JOY!

 

[jasoncran]

dancing as women worship teams is evil? alabaster he is saying that your church has women that act as loose women in worship? is that video posted a few pages back the source of this?

man . i have seen women dance and fall out and never saw "flesh" and i am a man and had a porn struggle. trust me i would be offended by that(if that went on) and would have to repent for looking and then never come back.

 

[Alabaster]

I simply cannot be associated with the unbiblical concept of "spiritual gifts". As long as you believe in that phantom concept, it is best that we stand in disagreement.

There is a problem with your statement. It is not that you cannot accept the truth about spiritual gifts, but it is an intention that you WILL NOT receive with gratefulness and awe any spiritual gift.

 

[Alabaster]

Then you didn't pray in 'tongues'.

Actually, I did. Thank you, Jesus.

 

[Alabaster]

dancing as women worship teams is evil? alabaster he is saying that your church has women that act as loose women in worship? is that video posted a few pages back the source of this?

Yep.

man . i have seen women dance and fall out and never saw "flesh" and i am a man and had a porn struggle. trust me i would be offended by that(if that went on) and would have to repent for looking and then never come back.

Did you watch the video?

I should think that if an old (or young!) codger would have a problem with Christian women dancing before the Lord, they should be very careful God doesn't call down a curse on him, remembering Michal's curse. The problem is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Watchman_2]

Actually, I did. Thank you, Jesus.

Tongues of the Bible is never gibberish.

 

[Alabaster]

Tongues of the Bible is never gibberish.

That's right.

 

[jasoncran]

Amen, Chris! Worshiping God like that is fun!

Here's video of some of our dancers at our church! It was better live!


Beside You

[video=youtube;zPDqyKE3QGU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPDqyKE3QGU[/video]

YOU have got to be kidding me. that is full of Flesh?i have watched women strip in a club and that is now where near what they woreat the beginning and way more provactive. if any man gets aroused then he needs to be delivered from lusting as nothing will stop his wicked thoughts( i know if any girl had a figure and didnt show anything i still took notice and looked).

edit at about two minutes you will see that all wear spandex. that is used to keep the sweat done and for comfort. i drive by a local dance studio and in practice those girls show way more the that. way more. and then that isnt porn either.

 

[Alabaster]

YOU have got to be kidding me. that is full of Flesh?i have watched women strip in a club and that is now where near what they woreat the beginning and way more provactive. if any man gets aroused then he needs to be delivered from lusting as nothing will stop his wicked thoughts( i know if any girl had a figure and didnt show anything i still took notice and looked).

edit at about two minutes you will see that all wear spandex. that is used to keep the sweat done and for comfort. i drive by a local dance studio and in practice those girls show way more the that. way more. and then that isnt porn either.

Yeah, Jason. Every one of those young women are beautiful, with the love of Jesus Christ, inside and out, and any lustful thought is an act against any one of them or all, and is an indictment against the thinker.

This is one of the ways they serve Him, and minister to the Body of Christ. Shame on any man who would decry it as anything but what it is: worship and adoration of our King.