The "plain words of Scripture"

[FreeGrace]

What do you know: plain words of Scripture over which we disagree.

And that sure happens as well. But using passages with metaphors and figures of speech to defend doctrines is not the way to go.

 

[FreeGrace]

If a parable or a symbol does not relate truth about a reality then it is meaningless babble.

There was a very good reason Jesus used parables. He taught truth in a way that those who were negative to begin with would hear but notunderstand. To fulfill Scripture.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not a "fairy tale".

Correct. It was a real story with real people, as He specifically named 2 of them.

So, yes, you do use that parable in forming your "doctrine of hell" because it does relate something of that reality.

What parables did Jesus teach that His audience understood without being further explained?

And, no, you do not dismiss it because "It's a parable for cryin' out loud".

What one shouldn't do is use it as a defense for one's doctrines.

 

[FreeGrace]

As I started reading this (OSAS) thread, I wondered if anybody would bring up the matter of context. As you show you know, it isn't just about how plain, or not plain the words are, but what they teach us as a whole. Number 1 rule for discerning the Bible: Know everything the Bible says about a subject. Then you won't be guilty of not dividing it correctly.

I couldn't agree more. So, since the Bible describes eternal life as a gift of God and then says that God's gifts are irrevocable, there is no reason to think that salvation can be lost.

The problem isn't that the words aren't plain and clear. The problem is many Christians simply don't know all the words that make it clear.

Or, they have been given the words, but they don't want to believe what it says. Or etc.

Add to that the fact that there are many false teachings indoctrinating the minds of Christians so they can only look at the plain words of the Bible with a predetermined interpretation of those words already in place. It makes them gloss right over plain words of scripture as if they never saw them.

Quite true.

 

[JLB]

And that sure happens as well. But using passages with metaphors and figures of speech to defend doctrines is not the way to go.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8

In this passage we lean that:

• God will render to each one according to his deeds: ...God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”.
• eternal life will be rendered by God, to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• Indignation and wrath will be rendered to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

This would be a perfect example of stating a lot of one's opinion, then taking Scripture references, and tagging them on a sentence that is only ones biased opinion, while never actually writing the words of scripture to be studied and honestly discussed.

Is there a point here? Or just expressing an opinion?

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:15-23

• Do you believe this passage and it's context, contrast's eternal life and death?
• Or, do you believe eternal death is never mentioned, while eternal life is?JLB

Eternal death is not mentioned. This is (or should be) obvious by the phrase in v.16 "whether of sin leading to death". Since all of mankind is born under the sentence of eternal or spiritual death, we're already dead. We can't die spiritually again, which your view seems to imply.

This passage is about loss of fellowship, or "death of fellowship" a concept that the OSNAS seems to deny.

iow, when a believer sins, they lose fellowship with the Lord, they either grieve or quench the Holy Spirit.

v.19 makes the point clear: a believer either "presents your memebers as slaves of uncleanness (sin)" or they "present your members as slaves of righteousness".

These are the choices every believer faces. Paul's point is that when the believer sins, they have presented themselves as slaves to sin, rather than slaves of righteousness.

Why should anyone disagree with this explanation? Where's the flaw?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I couldn't agree more. So, since the Bible describes eternal life as a gift of God and then says that God's gifts are irrevocable, there is no reason to think that salvation can be lost.

And once again the concept of 'context' gets completely and utterly ignored. Paul explains to us what he means by the gifts being irrevocable right in the sentence and paragraph your unrightly divided verse comes from. And it has NOTHING to do with a person believing then not believing but still retaining eternal life.

 

[JLB]

Every side of every debate on God's Word claims to use "the plain words of Scripture".

If this were true, then every opposing position on debate would be correct, and the Bible would be rendered meaningless, and therefore, useless. It would be akin to Paul's view that if the resurrection didn't happen, then our faith is vain and "we of all men are to be most pitied".

However, we know that the Bible is God's inerrant Word to mankind. It is perfect and not contradicted in any way. So, how do we really know how to understand what are the "plain words of Scripture" and what isn't.

First, some examples to demonstrate how Scripture isn't really being paid attention to.

Calvinists claim that Christ died only for the elect. Yet there are no verses that state this plainly. Their prime defense is the use of verses about Christ dying for "many". They take the English word to mean "less than all". Yet, the Bible very plainly says that Christ died for all in these verses: 2 Cor 5:14,15 and Heb 2:9. But, the Greek word is "polloi", from which we get "hoi polloi", which means "the masses". iow, Christ died for the masses, not "less than everyone" or "less than all".

On the Arminian side, the argument for loss of salvation rests primarily on verses that use figures of speech or metaphors, and these are claimed to be the "plain words of Scripture". such as John 15:1-6. So, let's see what the Bible says about clear and plain speech.

This isn't really difficult at all. The Bible even tells us how to know the difference.

Consider John 11:3-6 -
3So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”
4 When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.”
5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.
6 So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days,

Then this:
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”
13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural (or literal) sleep.
14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead

iow, Jesus used a figure of speech and His disciples misunderstood what He was saying to them. Only when He spoke plainly did they finally understand.

John 10:6 - Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.

John 16:25 - "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. "

John 16:29-32
29 Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God." 31 "You believe at last!" Jesus answered.

So, what have we learned from Scripture? When "figures of speech" or metaphors are used, there is a failure to understand what Jesus is saying. But when He spoke plainly, there was understanding.

So, hopefully, this will help people to error by claiming Scripture with figures of speech or metaphors are "the plain words of Scripture".

Only when Scripture uses actual "clear and plain" words, meaning WITHOUT figures of speech, can one claim to be quoting the "plain words of Scripture".

With this in mind, one can readily see whether any side of any debate on what the Bible teaches has the truth which is understandable.

Jesus spoke truth in figures of speech, but the message wasn't understood. But when He spoke truth in literal and clear words, without figures of speech, there was understanding.

Let the debater beware. ;)

6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8


Is this plain enough: But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

• all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Is this hard to understand?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Eternal death is not mentioned. This is (or should be) obvious by the phrase in v.16 "whether of sin leading to death". Since all of mankind is born under the sentence of eternal or spiritual death, we're already dead. We can't die spiritually again, which your view seems to imply.

This passage is about loss of fellowship, or "death of fellowship" a concept that the OSNAS seems to deny.

iow, when a believer sins, they lose fellowship with the Lord, they either grieve or quench the Holy Spirit.

v.19 makes the point clear: a believer either "presents your memebers as slaves of uncleanness (sin)" or they "present your members as slaves of righteousness".

These are the choices every believer faces. Paul's point is that when the believer sins, they have presented themselves as slaves to sin, rather than slaves of righteousness.

Why should anyone disagree with this explanation? Where's the flaw?

One flaw is that fellowship is not mentioned anywhere in this passage.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:15-23

For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

• having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. Romans 6:22
• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 3:7

JLB

 

[Nathan]

Those words are being spoken to the disciples. Look closely at the wording:

Joh 16:12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (ESV)

It doesn't say the Holy Spirit will guide into "all truth," but rather "all the truth." "All the truth" about what? About what Jesus had just been talking about, those things which the disciples could not then bear. That and as chessman has shown, the context of the passage quite clearly indicates that what Jesus was saying was for the disciples to whom he was speaking.

What do you know: plain words of Scripture over which we disagree.

I would ask again then. Do we receive a different Spirit than the Disciples did? Were they not supposed to pass on the same truths they received? Has truth changed?

No one is arguing that Jesus was speaking to them. However, to say that He was not intending for us to know the same truths, is like saying the writers of the U.S. constitution only meant themselves when they wrote "We the people....."

 

[Nathan]

What's interesting is you asked three questions without answering one.


No.

No.


No.

Have you ever been expelled from a synagogue?

No. Never been to an actual synagogue. I assume that is what you mean by the question?

 

[Nathan]

The OP points out the problem with figures of speech. Do you disagree with the OP?


Right. But that hasn't prevented all the denominations and directly opposable theologies that are out there.


Yes, that is my point. For those who default to passages with figures of speech, it's time to quote Scriptures that are plain words, not metaphors.

I am not sure if you understand you quoted your own quote, maybe thinking I quoted it? Regardless, I actually agree and disagree with the OP.

I believe that ALL passages(excluding prophetic ones yet to take place) are plain now, to the person who has the Spirit of God.

 

[chessman]

No. Never been to an actual synagogue.

Then what Jesus said to His disciples in John 16:2 does not apply to you (Nathan).

John 16:2 (NASB) They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. ​

 

[Nathan]

Then what Jesus said to His disciples in John 16:2 does not apply to you (Nathan).

John 16:2 (NASB) They will make you outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. ​

But you said you believed we receive the same Spirit as them, and that truth has not changed. So while He told them what the Spirit will do, it was not exclusive to them. The Spirit that lives in them is the same that lives in us - teaching us the same truths.

 

[JLB]

But you said you believed we receive the same Spirit as them, and that truth has not changed. So while He told them what the Spirit will do, it was not exclusive to them. The Spirit that lives in them is the same that lives in us - teaching us the same truths.

Amen Brother !

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:38-39



JLB

 

[chessman]

The Spirit that lives in them is the same that lives in us - teaching us the same truths.

Yes the same Spirit that lived in His disciples is the same Spirit that lives in us. The Spirit taught His disciples that they (not us) would be expelled from the synagogue.

John 16:8 (NASB) And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; ​

The same Spirit taught His disciples (and you and me and all who read and believe their words) that the Spirit convicts the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment. He's even taught us reading John's Gospel (and them listening to Jesus) why the Spirit convicts the world concerning sin (v9-11).

The same Spirit taught His disciples (and you and me reading John) that Jesus had many more things to say to His disciples that His disciples could not bear at that time.

John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."​

The same Spirit did NOT teach you or me that Jesus had many more things to say to you or me that you or me cannot bear now.

The same Spirit taught His disciples (and teaches you and me reading) that when He (the Spirit of truth) came, He would guide His disciples into all the truth that they (His disciples) could not bear at that time.

John 16:13 (NASB) But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. ​

The same Spirit did NOT teach you or me that the Spirit of truth would guide you or me into all truth.

You can trust John's guided truth.

 

[Nathan]

Yes the same Spirit that lived in His disciples is the same Spirit that lives in us. The Spirit taught His disciples that they (not us) would be expelled from the synagogue.

John 16:8 (NASB) And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; ​

The same Spirit taught His disciples (and you and me and all who read and believe their words) that the Spirit convicts the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment. He's even taught us reading John's Gospel (and them listening to Jesus) why the Spirit convicts the world concerning sin (v9-11).

The same Spirit taught His disciples (and you and me reading John) that Jesus had many more things to say to His disciples that His disciples could not bear at that time.

John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."​

The same Spirit did NOT teach you or me that Jesus had many more things to say to you or me that you or me cannot bear now.

The same Spirit taught His disciples (and teaches you and me reading) that when He (the Spirit of truth) came, He would guide His disciples into all the truth that they (His disciples) could not bear at that time.

John 16:13 (NASB) But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. ​

The same Spirit did NOT teach you or me that the Spirit of truth would guide you or me into all truth.

You can trust John's guided truth.

I'm sorry if you feel like the Spirit won't guide you into all truth. I know He can with me. He wants us to be one - as in singular - as in all together. That can only come about when everyone knows and understands the same things.

Jhn 17:6-23
“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

I can trust Jesus the Christ guided truth - through the Spirit who lives in me.

 

[chessman]

I'm sorry if you feel like the Spirit won't guide you into all truth.

I am sorry that you feel Jesus telling His disciples that they would be expelled from the synagogue and that they would be guided into all the truth they could not bear at that time applies to you now. It doesn't apply to you in verse 13 any more than verse 2 applies to you.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Perhaps what will be more sobering than that will be when Jesus confronts all the people who knew the plain words of scripture but chose to not heed them and instead clung to ear tickling, not rightly divided interpretations to suit their personal agendas and desires. Genuine ignorance can and will be overlooked and can mitigate Judgment. Willful ignorance can not. The latter is by far, IMO, the greater concern for the church at this time in history.

Those will, IMO will not be resurrected with the resurrection of the saved. I try to get those to seek the truth and there nothing more we can do. But Every time I have ever read through the Bible God has shown me more leading me to understand we do not know it all, none of us.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

we do not know it all, none of us.

That is certainly true, but the point is, we can potentially know all that God has allowed mankind to know if we seek it with humble, diligent, pure, undivided hearts. And he has allowed us to know way more than many Christians say he has. The confusion and distraction and stumbling caused by false teachers is no excuse for saying God has not made certain things known to his people.

 

[Free]

I would ask again then. Do we receive a different Spirit than the Disciples did? Were they not supposed to pass on the same truths they received? Has truth changed?

No one is arguing that Jesus was speaking to them. However, to say that He was not intending for us to know the same truths, is like saying the writers of the U.S. constitution only meant themselves when they wrote "We the people....."

No one is arguing that "He was not intending for us to know the same truths." Of course we receive the same Spirit. You asked previously and my answer has not changed. And of course they were to pass on the same truths, which have not changed--that is why we have the Bible in the first place. The writings of the NT are the result of the disciples being guided into all the truth of those things which at that time they could not bear.

There is no guarantee in the NT that if we pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance, which we should do in studying Scripture, that we will come to the truth of a matter or of a verse or passage.

The problem with this position is that there are, and have been, thousands upon thousands of believers, even pastors and theologians, who have truly wanted to know the truth of Scripture and have prayed for the truth to be known, yet they disagree with each other at various points. That alone tells me that John 16:13 doesn't say what you and many others make it say.