The "plain words of Scripture"

[JLB]

The OP shows why. Even Jesus' own disciples didn't understand his figures of speech, and were relieved when He used plain language instead of figures of speech.

Before the Holy Spirit was given.


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

The passage in John specifically says the Spirit would lead them.

Because "leading" is not at all like a brain download from "The Matrix."

 

[Jim Parker]

Yet, some will continue to believe that eternal life can be lost, taken away, etc.

Probably because that's what scripture says as you have been shown by the scriptures multiple times by multiple people and still refuse to accept.

 

[chessman]

The passage in John specifically says the Spirit would lead them.

Yes it specifically does say the Holy Spirit would lead them (His disciples) into the truth (not you, and not all truth) concerning the things Jesus had to say to them.

John 16:12 (NASB) “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. ​

And He specifically did just that. Read an example in John's further Revelation of Christ:

Revelation 1:10-11 (NASB) I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” ...​

You are the one stretching this verse beyond what it says.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

when plain words are used in any verse, the context does not change the meaning.

Okay, good. That's means we can throw out your argument that in the following passage 'hell' is only a figure of speech:

"6but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7“Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!

8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:6-9 NASB)

It's good that you finally agree that 'hell' actually means hell and that the context does not change the meaning of the plain word 'hell' to something other than the literal hell of the damned as you have argued in the past.

Jesus is warning us to get rid of stumbling blocks that if retained cause those who believe in him to be cast into the actual, real fiery hell, the abode of the damned.

 

[Nathan]

Yes it specifically does say the Holy Spirit would lead them (His disciples) into the truth (not you, and not all truth) concerning the things Jesus had to say to them.

John 16:12 (NASB) “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. ​

And He specifically did just that. Read an example in John's further Revelation of Christ:

Revelation 1:10-11 (NASB) I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, “Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” ...​

You are the one stretching this verse beyond what it says.

so believing that the same Spirit they received, and the same truth of God, and the same faith in Christ - coupled with the knowledge God wants all to be as one......

So it's a stretch to think that the Spirit of God will lead me into the truth? Maybe one day you will find the value in seeking the truth. I promise it's not disappointing.

 

[JLB]

Not at all.

Great then no more nonsense about the plain words of scripture.



6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:6-8

Is this plain enough: But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

• all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The OP shows why. Even Jesus' own disciples didn't understand his figures of speech, and were relieved when He used plain language instead of figures of speech."

Before the Holy Spirit was given.
JLB

So how does one explain ALL the different and conflicting theological notions of believers today? Every believer HAS the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[FreeGrace]

Great then no more nonsense about the plain words of scripture.

Sad commentary on plain words of Scripture. But it's the plain words of Scripture that communicate God's truth. Figures of speech only confuse and cause strife and conflict.

 

[WIP]

This is my second attempt. The topic of this thread is not OSAS vs OSNAS.

 

[Nathan]

So how does one explain ALL the different and conflicting theological notions of believers today? Every believer HAS the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Not everyone listens to Him. We have to listen to the Holy Spirit and follow Him where He leads. People only want to listen when it suits them.

I'd also say, half the people who claim to be indwelt are actually not - yet they still have theological notions and teach them.

 

[chessman]

You neglect to see that Jesus prayed for ALL who would believe

How do you know that Jesus prayed for "ALL who would believe -", (like you) and not just His disciples??? Did the Holy Spirit reveal that to you or did John 17:20 reveal that to both of us???
And one non-rhetorical question for you:
What things did Jesus pray for, specifically, in verse 20?

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"So how does one explain ALL the different and conflicting theological notions of believers today? Every believer HAS the indwelling Holy Spirit."

Not everyone listens to Him. We have to listen to the Holy Spirit and follow Him where He leads. People only want to listen when it suits them.

Exactly my point!

 

[Nathan]

How do you know that Jesus prayed for "ALL who would believe -", (like you) and not just His disciples??? Did the Holy Spirit reveal that to you or did John 17:20 reveal that to both of us???
And one non-rhetorical question for you:
What things did Jesus pray for, specifically, in verse 20?

You might have meant that as rhetorical, but I assure you that it is the Spirit of God that reveals it to us.

You cannot separate verse 20 from 21. They are one sentence.

Jhn 17:20-21
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Jesus prayed for oneness - specifically.

 

[chessman]

You cannot separate verse 20 from 21. They are one sentence.

I only meant to simplify the question. Jesus indeed prayed for a lot of things in this passage (17:1-26). The whole chapter is a prayer.

But, yes He prayed for oneness in v21. But that's why I asked you about verse 20.

You might have meant that as rhetorical, but I assure you that it is the Spirit of God that reveals it to us.

I read it [that Jesus prayed for "ALL who would believe -"] in Scripture, myself. Including the - part.

But that's why I asked you. You didn't answer.

In verse 20, what did Jesus specifically pray for? Plain and clear question, right?

 

[Nathan]

I only meant to simplify the question. Jesus indeed prayed for a lot of things in this passage (17:1-26). The whole chapter is a prayer.

But, yes He prayed for oneness in v21. But that's why I asked you about verse 20.


I read it [that Jesus prayed for "ALL who would believe -"] in Scripture, myself. Including the - part.

But that's why I asked you. You didn't answer.

In verse 20, what did Jesus specifically pray for? Plain and clear question, right?

You said "what" did He pray for, not "who" did He pray for.

Yes, in verse 20, Jesus is praying for all who would believe in Him through the disciples word.

The "what" He is praying for is not listed in verse 20, but in 21.

 

[chessman]

The "what" He is praying for is not listed in verse 20, but in 21.

I understand He's prayer is for the "who" (you and me). But for what, specifically in this verse?

John 17:20 “(NASB) I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;​

The "what" He prayed for (asked the Father for) is that we (you and me, for example) believe in Him (Jesus Christ) through their word (the words of the Scripture they received from from the Holy Spirit soon after Jesus' death, resurrection and assention and that we read today. Just as Jesus specifically promised they would receive back in John 16:13.

I have two points:

1. The reason we both know the truth is that Jesus indeed prayed for us (you and me and ALL who would believe through "their word") is that the Scripture itself says so in this verse (John's word) plainly and clearly. Plainly and clearly in this verse Jesus is praying for them and "also" for believers like you and me.

But He's also praying for a "what".

2. But in verse 16:13, Jesus told His disciples, they (not you or me) would be given later "all the truth" they could not bear at that time by the Holy Spirit. He then prayed for their further truth (that would be disclosed to them by the Holy Spirit, and was) to lead you and me to believe in Him. And it has. "Their word" IS the NT Scripture! Whatever truth the Holy Spirit leads you to now (and I've never said He hasn't lead you to truth) is NOT "their word" (NT Scripture). Demonstrably so. Has some additional truth the Holy Spirit lead you to made "all those" whom believe in Him believe? Or rather, was it their disclosed truth that has lead all belivers? You were not even born for most of the time believers have been reading and believing John's truth.

Jesus did NOT tell you or me that the Holy Spirit would disclose what is to come (their words) to us in John 16:13. But He did tell them.

John 16:13 (NASB) But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. ​

If Jesus would have said to them;
'But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you and also all those who believe in Me into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you and also all those who believe in Me what is to come' you would have a point.

But He didn't say that.

You neglect to see that Jesus prayed for ALL who would believe

BTW, it is not true that I neglect to see that Jesus prayed for ALL who would believe in their word.

 

[Nathan]

I understand He's prayer is for the "who" (you and me). But for what, specifically in this verse?

John 17:20 “(NASB) I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;​

The "what" He prayed for (asked the Father for) is that we (you and me, for example) believe in Him (Jesus Christ) through their word (the words of the Scripture they received from from the Holy Spirit soon after Jesus' death, resurrection and assention and that we read today. Just as Jesus specifically promised they would receive back in John 16:13.

I have two points:

1. The reason we both know the truth is that Jesus indeed prayed for us (you and me and ALL who would believe through "their word") is that the Scripture itself says so in this verse (John's word) plainly and clearly. Plainly and clearly in this verse Jesus is praying for them and "also" for believers like you and me.

But He's also praying for a "what".

2. But in verse 16:13, Jesus told His disciples, they (not you or me) would be given later "all the truth" they could not bear at that time by the Holy Spirit. He then prayed for their further truth (that would be disclosed to them by the Holy Spirit, and was) to lead you and me to believe in Him. And it has. "Their word" IS the NT Scripture! Whatever truth the Holy Spirit leads you to now (and I've never said He hasn't lead you to truth) is NOT "their word" (NT Scripture). Demonstrably so. Has some additional truth the Holy Spirit lead you to made "all those" whom believe in Him believe? Or rather, was it their disclosed truth that has lead all belivers? You were not even born for most of the time believers have been reading and believing John's truth.

Jesus did NOT tell you or me that the Holy Spirit would disclose what is to come (their words) to us in John 16:13. But He did tell them.

John 16:13 (NASB) But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. ​

If Jesus would have said to them;
'But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you and also all those who believe in Me into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you and also all those who believe in Me what is to come' you would have a point.

But He didn't say that.


BTW, it is not true that I neglect to see that Jesus prayed for ALL who would believe in their word.

Interesting. I have to say, this is a good thread topic. Jesus did not pray that we would believe in Him through their word. That's not what that verse says. That's why you cannot take it out of context.

He is praying for those, who would believe in Him, through their word. And He was praying specifically that we would be one. This is why you miss the "plain words".

I guess it can be easy to miss the plain words when things are not taken in context.

I think you may be missing my point. I do not intend to say that Jesus was including us in the verse in chapter 16. What we do know is that He declared to them the work the Spirit would do, and because we receive the same Spirit, we can understand He will do the same for us.

Do you believe anyone but the disciples were to baptize? Jesus told them to in Matthew 28 right? So was it just for them?

 

[chessman]

Do you believe anyone but the disciples were to baptize?

No.

Jesus told them to in Matthew 28 right?

Yes.

So was it just for them?

No.

Matthew 28:18-20 (NASB) And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” ​

No. He plainly said to go and make disciples of all nations.
Did any of these disciples of other nations write Scripture?

Does He say in Matthew 28 that any of these other nation's disciples will be expelled from the synagogue?

Jesus did not pray that we would believe in Him through their word.

Interesting that you don't see Jesus praying that we would believe in Him through their word.
Yes He did plainly and clearly pray that we would believe in Him through their word. He was asking the Father on behalf of us that believe in Him through their word. I believed through their word (John's Gospel) long before I ever read any of your words. And yes, through the Holy Spirit too.

John 17:20 “(NASB) I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
​

He is praying for those, who would believe in Him, through their word. And He was praying specifically that we would be one.

Odd statements in light of the fact that you just said He was not praying that we would believe in Him through their word. Are "those" and "we" in your above statements not the same people on your view?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thanks for the opportunity to explain WHEN 'fire' refers to hell. When the adjective "everlasting" or "eternal" are placed before the word 'fire'. This verse is a great example.

But there are many verses that use 'fire' to indicate God's judgment during our life on earth; hardly a reference to hell.

Which is this referring to, earthly judgment, or eternal judgment?
"9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:9 NASB)