The Pre Tribulation Rapture: Fact or Fiction?

[n2thelight]

berk60

What I mean about Satan's wrath for the first half of the seven years is found in Revelation 13:7-8, " It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Satan will posses the Anti-Christ and come after the saints and overcome them. We will be around for this as this is not God's wrath that comes later. We will refuse to worship the Anti-Christ and he will be gunning for us, probable him and the rest of the world.

Your first mistake is in thinking that satan will posses the antichrist,somehow,thinking the a/c to be a mere man,that's a big error...satan is the antichrist,satan comes to earth pretending to be Christ live and in person,along with his angels...This happens after he gets kicked out of heaven by Michael......

The only people satan will kill are the two witnesses, 3 1/2 days after that Christ returns......Those who kill during this time are those that think they do God a favor

John 16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

satan can't go around killing people,while at the same time having them believe he is Christ,who would be deceived?

People really don't understand the gravity of the situation,it's not physical,it's all spiritual....I know I keep saying this over and over but I must say it again....It's all about deception!!!!!!

This deception will be so great that had God not shortened the time,every one on earth would be deceived.....The whole world will worship satan,not out of fear but because they will think that he is in fact Christ......

You wanna see people gunning for christians try China,Russia,Middle East,christians have always had groups gunning for them,that's nothing new...This is spiritual warfare

Within Revelation chapter thirteen there is a great deal of symbolism used. It reveals the coming into existence of a one world system, and at the completion of its growth, that world wide system is ruled by Satan the Antichrist, in a religious capacity. In fact, most of the Christian world will actually think that Satan is Jesus Christ. God uses this symbolism so that those who really don't care to study Scripture, will be deceived.

This chapter speaks of two beasts, but when we separate the two beasts, we see one is a political beast, while the second and last beast is a religious beast. The political beast is a political system, and today it is alive and ruling under the name of "One-worldism". It's title is called the "United Nations". It is under the banner of the United Nations, and it's governing agencies the the entire world is getting together; to work for their so-called "peace".

There will be a one world system ,and it will fall apart,this is the deadly wound,when satan arrives pretending to be Christ,he will heal that wound...

What if the first beast is the islamic messiah Al Mahdi and the second beast is the islamic Jesus "Isa"? Do you know what the muslims themselves believe those two will do when they arrive? You can search the internet for that information.

There's no what if's.....The different religons around the world will all fall for the beast,you must remember satan will be super natural,something the world has never seen................

 

[Grappler]

:toofunnyI have asked them the same thing and just get blank stares.

Why do you always mock people and talk so snotty to them? We are all Gods people, even the sinners. You're so condescending and arrogant that you make it very hard to believe that you even know God. Where in your speech is love thy neighbor as yourself? Holding different beliefs is one thing but talking down to people discourages any sort of credibility in your words and makes you appear as if you have a serious inferiority complex.

Wow talk about judge not lest ye be judged...

 

[Grappler]

:toofunnyI have asked them the same thing and just get blank stares.

Why do you always mock people and talk so snotty to them? We are all Gods people, even the sinners. You're so condescending and arrogant that you make it very hard to believe that you even know God. Where in your speech is love thy neighbor as yourself? Holding different beliefs is one thing but talking down to people discourages any sort of credibility in your words and makes you appear as if you have a serious inferiority complex.

Wow talk about judge not lest ye be judged...

I'm saying you shouldn't be so disrespectful to your brothers. How dare you attempt to start yet another quarrel with me and to point fingers to change the subject off of you when you should have enough humbleness in your your heart to man up and say, yes brother, I'm too harsh sometimes and and should work on that. These are good people on this board and children of the Lord, your brothers since you profess to be Christian, and you treat them so? Shame on you brother.

Titus 3:1-11

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. 3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. 9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned./ (KJV)

There's more scriptures of this nature if you want to go that direction. You shouldn't. I implore you to lighten up on people and show some courtesy. Are we followers of Christ? Would Jesus speak to people so? I take you at your word that you are a Christian and a follower of Christ, so I beseech you to show more respect to other people. What you are doing is wrong brother.

Sure glad that you are not God or I would be in BIG trouble.

 

[10s3r]

What if the first beast is the islamic messiah Al Mahdi and the second beast is the islamic Jesus "Isa"? Do you know what the muslims themselves believe those two will do when they arrive? You can search the internet for that information.

I'm wondering if the Islamic dajjal is involved in the mix somehow.

There's no what if's.....The different religons around the world will all fall for the beast,you must remember satan will be super natural,something the world has never seen................

The prophesied evil religion of the last days is here in Islam.
The pretrib rapture is the most complicated doctrine I know and anything that's usually takes volumes of books to explain is almost always false. The simplest explanation of anything biblical is usually the correct one.
There will be no global empire/dictator or one world religion. That's something for another thread.

 

[JLB]

The pretrib rapture is the most complicated doctrine I know and anything that's usually takes volumes of books to explain is almost always false. The simplest explanation of anything biblical is usually the correct one.

:amen

 

[Skrumpelnubb]

I'm wondering if the Islamic dajjal is involved in the mix somehow.

It could be that they will claim the real Jesus to be Dajjal when he arrives? Some hadiths about Dajjal seem to point to that? Examples of this here:

"Dajjal will be blind in the right eye. He will have thick hair on his body and he will also have Paradise and Hell with him. Though his Paradise will appear as Jannah, in reality it will be Hell, and likewise, though his Hell will appear like Jahannam, in reality it will be Paradise."

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And:
[/FONT]
"Those who obey the Dark Messiah will enter his Paradise (and thus enter Hell), and those who denounce him will enter his Hell (and so shall in reality be entering Paradise). He will travel by means of a gigantic mule, at impossible speeds. He will cause droughts and famine upon those who reject him. But the remembrance of the true Lord will satiate them."

There's much more on this subject to be found online if you search for it.

We have to remember it's all deceptive lies from the Devil aimed at twisting people's minds to believe in the lie and revolt against Jesus.

 

[Skrumpelnubb]

Hi Kiwidan

We wont be decieved if we have love for the truth and believe in Jesus as the son of God and our redeemer. So, no worries about that.

About the Devils attempts to decieve trough false religion. He most likely gives those "revelations" to selected muslim prominents based on how he picture the return of Jesus, and then try to twist it to lead the muslims to react against Him when he is returning. That's an interesting perspective when you look at the islamic hadiths about the Dajjal.

 

[n2thelight]

What if the first beast is the islamic messiah Al Mahdi and the second beast is the islamic Jesus "Isa"? Do you know what the muslims themselves believe those two will do when they arrive? You can search the internet for that information.

I'm wondering if the Islamic dajjal is involved in the mix somehow.

There's no what if's.....The different religons around the world will all fall for the beast,you must remember satan will be super natural,something the world has never seen................

The prophesied evil religion of the last days is here in Islam.
The pretrib rapture is the most complicated doctrine I know and anything that's usually takes volumes of books to explain is almost always false. The simplest explanation of anything biblical is usually the correct one.
There will be no global empire/dictator or one world religion. That's something for another thread.

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles [signs] which he had power [it was given him] to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."

I don't feel it's about Muslims or any other group....

The religon won't be evil but will be of evil ,satan

satan comes in peace with all his angels ......

II Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."

Satan is coming disguised as an "angel of light", and the true "Angel of Light" is Jesus Christ. He is coming disguised as the Savior, and that is what this warning of Paul's is all about. Paul doesn't want you seduced by Satan spiritually, like many of the virgins of Christ will be. This is from the very parable that Christ put forth. Are you starting to understand a little more of our Heavenly Father's Word?

II Corinthians 11:15 "Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."

Daniel 8:25 "And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

As for the one world government,it will be one,heck we're almost there now.......

 

[n2thelight]

Ephesians 6:12

King James Version (KJV)


12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

 

[Skrumpelnubb]

Those demons keep doing jump attacks. They dont want me to learn Gods word.

I read the bible and will believe in a scripture, then they keep trying to make me question it and find contradictions and excuses, saying no,no,no dont believe it. Spiritual mind attacks. Maybe thats why we have the word "confusion".

confusion = Spiritual Attacks

Ok. This is going off topic, but it's interesting. I like to hear of any example of those attacks. I have had a lot of them too, not about biblical contradictions. But I often have dreams about being physically tortured in all kinds of ways, misused and hated because I belong to Jesus. Also I'm being tortured with all my past sins in attempts to make me deject. These attacks is growing much in intensity when I'm witnessing about Jesus and trying to free a soul that belongs to Satan.

 

[Grappler]

Those demons keep doing jump attacks. They dont want me to learn Gods word.

I read the bible and will believe in a scripture, then they keep trying to make me question it and find contradictions and excuses, saying no,no,no dont believe it. Spiritual mind attacks. Maybe thats why we have the word "confusion".

confusion = Spiritual Attacks

Ok. This is going off topic, but it's interesting. I like to hear of any example of those attacks. I have had a lot of them too, not about biblical contradictions. But I often have dreams about being physically tortured in all kinds of ways, misused and hated because I belong to Jesus. Also I'm being tortured with all my past sins in attempts to make me deject. These attacks is growing much in intensity when I'm witnessing about Jesus and trying to free a soul that belongs to Satan.

Yeah i grappler with demons all the time. lol

 

[reba]

Yeah i grappler with demons all the time. lol

And church said amen


Very unmoderator like but some times ya just got to

 

[reba]

Those demons keep doing jump attacks. They dont want me to learn Gods word. I read the bible and will believe in a scripture, then they keep trying to make me question it and find contradictions and excuses, saying no,no,no dont believe it. Spiritual mind attacks. Maybe thats why we have the word "confusion". confusion = Spiritual Attacks

There is an old church saying ... If the devil ain't bothering you it's cus he has you.....

 

[turnorburn]

Is it fact or fiction? Neither! Its a lie!

Hi everyone....
I'm back..

tob

 

[Eugene]

Is it fact or fiction? Neither! Its a lie!

Hi everyone....
I'm back..

tob

Hi tob and welcome back. Have you ever read the fifty "Reasons for holding a Pre-Tribulation Rapture position" by Pastor Don McKay? If you have, what'd you think of it? If he was mistaken, I do not believe him to have been lying. Thanks.

 

[reba]

Is it fact or fiction? Neither! Its a lie!

Hi everyone....
I'm back..

tob

This place just got cleaned up stir up all the debate , discussion you want, good disagreements are a hoot to read! ... it is most welcome but don't be stirring up snarks. Welcome back! moderator

 

[lowrab777]

do all agree that the rapture is at his coming ?

 

[lowrab777]

or does the PRE TRIB theory teach that rapture happens before he comes?

 

[reba]

In your rapture theory do you include the resurrection?

 

[10s3r]

Pretribulationism is such a lengthy, complicated, and contradictory doctrine that I don't want to bore you with all the specifics. It takes pages...even a book, to confront all of them. So this is by no means a complete study. I've cut out a lot.

If the pre-trib rapture is the sensasional event pre-tribbers make it out to be then surely there must be at least one other supporting verse where Christ is said to return 'before' the tribulation. Problem is...there are none.

What makes pre-tribbers think that when God does remove His own it would create such chaos and havoc all over the earth? The words "twinkling of an eye" doesn't mean all at once. It means in a split second. Pre-tribbers make the rapture appear more like a terror attack than a kind and loving act of deliverance. God won't steal, kill, and destroy when He removes His own. He will be more precise in the gathering than what pre-tribbers make it out to be.

Pretribulationist would tell you that the word 'elect' in Mathew 24:31 refers to Jews. They do that because the text clearly indicates that Jesus said the gathering occurs AFTER the tribulation. So they've fabricated "another rapture" to counter that contradiction.

Matthew 24:29 　Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 　And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 　And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The word "elect", always refers to Christians in the New Testament and never to non-Christian Jews.

The word elect is 'eklektos' and is Strong's # 1588 which means...

1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

http://www.bluelette...ngs=G1588&t=KJV

Elect, chosen, 'eklektos,' is used in the following verses in the NT where it always means Christians... whether Jew or gentile!


Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shallask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Acts 15:22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
Acts 15:25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 16:13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.1 Corinthians 1:27-28
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.5:13 and,
Revelation 17:14 ¶These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

If God wanted the elect of Mathew 24 to mean Jews, He would have used a different Greek word. Probably this one...

1445. Hebraios heb-rah'-yos from 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:--Hebrew.

Evangelical pre-tribbers argue that because elect or 'chosen' always means Jews in the Old Testament it also does in the New. Obviously that was the case in the OT because the church had not yet been formed, and the OT was written mostly for Israel anyway. AND, there is no longer Jew or gentile after Christ. The NT Greek text shows that 'elect' denotes CHRISTIANS and there's no getting around it!

They would also tell you that Christians are not appointed to wrath therefore God will remove them from earth beforehand.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 　For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

BUT!

Take a look at what it is that averts that wrath...

1 Thessalonians 5:8 　But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 　For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 　Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

It's not averted by a rapture. It's averted by repentance and salvation in Christ!

Pre-tribbers have had to change several things to counter the contradictions. Mathew 24:31 indicates that the gathering occurs at the end of the tribulation at the great sound of a trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:52 indicates that the gathering occurs at the last trump. Problem for pre-tribbers is that the trumpets don't begin to sound until Revelation 8! They say that the rapture occurs at either revelation 3:10 or Revelation 4:1! The biggest thing that they've changed the time and meaning of the Day of the Lord saying that the Day of the Lord begins 7 years before the end of tribulation. We know by other verses that the Day of the Lord occurs at Armageddon at the end of tribulation.

Any doctrine like pretribulationism that has several contradictions and complications is alway's untrue. The rapture is a timely and strategic act of kindness where God removes His own before He does battle. It's not a sloppy transition of believers that results into something like a terror attack. They've made God look unprecise, indiscriminate, and sloppy. The gathering is simple and pristine. It doesn't disgrace God in any way. Pre-trib takes scripture far out of context. It's the most misleading, deceitful, and widely held false doctrine of the church age.

In the following passage we are told to suffer tribulation up to the time when Christ shall come to be glorified in His saints.

That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.