The Pre Tribulation Rapture: Fact or Fiction?

[lowrab777]

Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Isa 45:10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Isa 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isa 45:13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

[reba]

Wellll, uh, loosely speaking, lol.

From what I can tell, it wasn't really the plan par se, but God knew what would happen already even at the foundation of the world, with Him being able to see the begining from the end. So...we're both right. Sorta.

Mat_25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

 

[jasoncran]

uhm what. so you don't read the torah enough? it says in the law that isreal was to be the light to the gentiles and had they done the will there would be what is called noahides. adam and eve and noah and all that walked with god weren't Hebrews at all.

but G-E-N-T-I-L-E-S.

God didn't create isreal just to love isreal alone but to be the priesthood to him to reconcile the goyim.the jews thought too much of themselves and got into sin to actually do that.

 

[n2thelight]

Sorry, Friend, I find your language here making me a supposed follower of Satan unacceptably extreme and it means I can't meaningfully interact with you on this thread.

No where whatsoever did I say you were a follower of satan(nowhere)what I did say is,to believe in a rapture,sets you up to follow satan,thinking him to be Christ as he shall,not maybe come pretending to be....If you gonna accuse me of something,get it right!!!!!!

 

[reba]

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[n2thelight]

The Jews have always been Gods chosen people. Hear O Israel He said, many times. It is my belief that if Israel had never turned their back on God, that we Gentiles would not have had the chance to be saved. But the Jews would not attend the Wedding Banquet, so the Groom went to the street and invited strangers. (remember the Parable?). (Praise the Lord for that).

Israel has been promised the "Promised Land" since early in the OT. If you notice, they have not got it yet, never have. They WILL still get it. It will take the threat of Armageddon to get them to turn back to their God, and cry out for Him. Gods word will come true and the Lord will hear their cry, and come save them, and they will possess the Promised Land during the Millennium. All of it. That is my belief. That, is where the elect will come from during the great tribulation.

Farouk, good point. I am still talking to him because he does understand some things, yet shows himself to be a babe in Christ. He is much like I was when I was young and reading scripture, and thought I knew everything. He needs the Love and Encouragement of more mature Christians, and prayer to grow in Christ. So I try.

Okay,soooooo,how do you account for the fact,that not all Israel are Jew's?Isreal consisted of 12 tribes,only 2,Judah and Benjamin,were Jew's...What do you do with the other 10????

As for me being a babe,Ive been off the milk for a looooong time,you all want to run and hide(raptured)when the going gets tough,scripture teaches me to take a stand,with the whole Armore of God as my protection....

You talk about armageddon,whats the worst that can happen during that time....death!!!!,yet scripture teaches me,to fear not those who can kill the body!!!!!You all go ahead and run,I shall take a stand against satan,and his fallen angels,that shall,not maybe,return to this earth!!!!!

 

[farouk]

No where whatsoever did I say you were a follower of satan(nowhere)what I did say is,to believe in a rapture,sets you up to follow satan,thinking him to be Christ as he shall,not maybe come pretending to be....If you gonna accuse me of something,get it right!!!!!!

I don't really know about the fine distinction, if it exists, between a belief in the Lord Jesus rapturing His church supposedly making me a follower of Satan, and a belief in the Lord Jesus rapturing His church supposedly causing me to follow Satan.

I do know that I can't engage meaningfully with this discussion when the language has gone to such levels.

 

[n2thelight]

I don't really know about the fine distinction, if it exists, between a belief in the Lord Jesus rapturing His church supposedly making me a follower of Satan, and a belief in the Lord Jesus rapturing His church supposedly causing me to follow Satan.

I do know that I can't engage meaningfully with this discussion when the language has gone to such levels.

Here's the bottom line of what Im saying...satan shall come pretending to be Christ,my point being,if your looking to be raptured,it will be much easier to be deceived ,for as it is written most of the world will follow him,thinking him to be Christ....Not my words,it's written!!!

 

[lowrab777]

Okay,soooooo,how do you account for the fact,that not all Israel are Jew's?Isreal consisted of 12 tribes,only 2,Judah and Benjamin,were Jew's...What do you do with the other 10????

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[lowrab777]

:scared:fightdont get to carried away guys we all have our opinions ................................... ........... :armed.............

 

[gr8grace]

Here's the bottom line of what Im saying...satan shall come pretending to be Christ,my point being,if your looking to be raptured,it will be much easier to be deceived ,for as it is written most of the world will follow him,thinking him to be Christ....Not my words,it's written!!!

Hello,

Just some thoughts. I just want to add some thoughts not any arguments.

If one believes in the rapture it takes us out of the possible deception of a false Christ. The reason for this is because The Lord Comes back(never sets foot on the earth) and we are gone in a twinkle of an eye. If anyone said, " Here I am, I am The Christ." I would know him to be a liar, with the rapture I know that I am Just gone, with no chance of being fooled.

And Christ never,never,never tells anyone that He wants them to take a stand against satan,never. We are to resist satan with bible Doctrine in our soul.(His word) James 4:7~~Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

And the end times and tribulation is the Wrath of the Lamb.
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

We are told that we are not destined for wrath, let alone the Wrath of our Lamb. 1 Thess 5:9~~For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

If it is the wrath Of the Lamb. We are called His Church,Bride,Body,Sons and daughters, we are sealed with Him. Is He Going to beat His bride? Is He going to beat His Body?

 

[n2thelight]

I do not account for the Jews. God does. He will take whom He wants, and not who He wants.

Who's running? Here I am. ;)

If you read the scripture real close, Armageddon doesn't really happen. God comes back.

Still missing the point,and that did not answer my question,you said the Jew's were God's chosen people,I replied not all of Israel are Jew's...So again I ask what do we do with the other 10 tribes,do you even know who and where they are????

 

[n2thelight]

Hello,

Just some thoughts. I just want to add some thoughts not any arguments.

If one believes in the rapture it takes us out of the possible deception of a false Christ. The reason for this is because The Lord Comes back(never sets foot on the earth) and we are gone in a twinkle of an eye. If anyone said, " Here I am, I am The Christ." I would know him to be a liar, with the rapture I know that I am Just gone, with no chance of being fooled.

And Christ never,never,never tells anyone that He wants them to take a stand against satan,never. We are to resist satan with bible Doctrine in our soul.(His word) James 4:7~~Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

And the end times and tribulation is the Wrath of the Lamb.
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

We are told that we are not destined for wrath, let alone the Wrath of our Lamb. 1 Thess 5:9~~For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

If it is the wrath Of the Lamb. We are called His Church,Bride,Body,Sons and daughters, we are sealed with Him. Is He Going to beat His bride? Is He going to beat His Body?

Cool,no arguments

Christ said that had He not shortened those days,even the elect would not stand a chance,now the elect are just that,His elect,a very special group of people...My question,how will they still be here and every one else gets raptured?

Yes we are to resist the devil,however we also must stand against him

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

It's about to be a battle unseen before in the history of mankind,all about deception,a spiritual battle....

Before I do the wrath of God,can you tell me what you feel it is......

 

[jasoncran]

uhm it happened before Christ even came. please do read the tanach. im jewish and I like to spend time there.

 

[reba]

Do a peoples need land to be a nation?

 

[reba]

I did answer. I do not know. I'm not real up on the tribes and such, or how God will sort them out. What I do know is that scripture says that the Jewish people and Israel are Gods chosen people, and that they have been promised by God to possess the Land (all of it to the original borders), and this has not happened yet.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

 

[jasoncran]

reign of Solomon was the first time isreal reached the river Euphrates. also God said that in judges he would no longer give the land to isreal fully over their sins.
judges 2

And an angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you

and also on Solomon.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/monarchy.html

its close enough and here and the jews believe they did reach it under Solomon and david.

http://www.jewish-history.com/Palestine/boundaries.html

Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt.

2 chronicles 7:8

and hamath.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamath

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

the word river is used in the kjv.its in reference to the euphrates

 

[n2thelight]

I did answer. I do not know. I'm not real up on the tribes and such, or how God will sort them out. What I do know is that scripture says that the Jewish people and Israel are Gods chosen people, and that they have been promised by God to possess the Land (all of it to the original borders), and this has not happened yet.

My point was to show that,you can't seperate Israel from the Church or The Jew's from Israel and at the same time refer your self and other's as
"we Gentiles "You are either with Christ(Christian)or you are not.....And again not all of Israel are Jew's,however that's another study........

 

[Sinthesis]

Do a peoples need land to be a nation?

A rhetorical question I presume, because clearly the bible teaches Israel was a nation regardless of whether they were in the promised land, wilderness, bondage, or diaspora. Thus 1948 becomes insignificant to whether Israel is a nation or not.

 

[n2thelight]

Maybe you just like to argue. I thought I had made it clear that I used that term loosely. And even then, sort of was speaking in the past tense, like, back then...before Christ. I understand that I am not a gentile NOW. :crazy

My apologies if you took that as argumentive,as that wasn't my intent......