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The Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

done told you where i stand i am going on the first load

I asked you what is your belief, IOW your belief about the scriptures and points I made.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

  1. What do you believe about the scriptures and the three things that happen at His coming, that I listed.

  • First - The Resurrection: And the dead in Christ will rise first.
  • Second - The Rapture: Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...
  • Third - The destruction of the false messiah; aka antichrist: And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

2. Can you point out which of these things you don't agree will happen at His coming?



JLB
 
2. Can you point out which of these things you don't agree will happen at His coming?
DID you not read my previous post / reply one last time i agree with all 3 .i simply stand Christ can return at any time..
 
our g parents was watching looking for his return. when the disciples asked about all this one of the main things he focused on let no man deceive you.

Don't you see how ironic your statement is. If your parents believed in the imminent coming of Christ, and the expectation of His return in their lifetime, they were deceived, given that Christ didn't return. In the same breath that you boast of your grandparents' error, you say let no man deceive you.

You can say they weren't deceived, but deceived is exactly what you describe.
 
Don't you see how ironic your statement is. If your parents believed in the imminent coming of Christ, and the expectation of His return in their lifetime, they were deceived, given that Christ didn't return. In the same breath that you boast of your grandparents' error, you say let no man deceive you.

You can say they weren't deceived, but deceived is exactly what you describe.
did any one tell you your load of bricks has slipped ?
2 Timothy 4:8

“Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”
you just stepped into a area that it be best to move on saying they was deceived. :angry:readbible
 
DID you not read my previous post / reply one last time i agree with all 3 .i simply stand Christ can return at any time..


Ok, so be it.

However, if you agree that the Lord will both Rapture His people and destroy the antichrist and the same time, then please at least explain how this could happen before or in the middle of the tribulation.


The great tribulation starts in the middle of the week, the last 7 year period of Daniels 70 weeks.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:27

So if Jesus comes in the middle of the 70th week, it is still before the great tribulation.

The antichrist is destroyed by the Lord Himself, so the only time He can come in relation to the great tribulation is after the tribulation, which is exactly what He taught His disciples.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31



JLB
 
The time periods are separated by time whose events are not part of the time period.

The 70 weeks are made up of three time periods that are not continuous:

7 Weeks
62 weeks
1 Week


No one is claiming that time stops and starts again.

The prophecy given through Daniel by the Spirit of Christ, is foretelling of 70 weeks that has three parts.


These three distinct periods of time are governed by the world ruler during each period of time.


In other words the time periods began and by those who are ruling the world kingdom at that time, or by the event being fulfilled.

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
Daniel 9:25


The event time period markers were:

  • the restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem
and
  • Messiah the Prince.

The command is what begins the time period of 7 weeks.

The work of rebuilding Jerusalem is the event time marker.


The reason the 69 weeks are indicated by two separate periods of time, is the work of restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem is halted by the ruler of the world kingdom during that time.

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,

2 Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:

All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. 3 Who is among you of all His people? May his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel (He is God), which is in Jerusalem. Ezra 1:1-3


This is the command to release the children of Israel for the work of restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem, as foretold by Jeremiah, and also Daniel.

This began the prophetic clock countdown to Messiah the Prince.


This is what stopped the work, and therefore the prophetic clock.

23 Now when the copy of King Artaxerxes’ letter was read before Rehum, Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem against the Jews, and by force of arms made them cease. 24 Thus the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem ceased, and it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia. Ezra 4:23-24


This was the end of the first 7 weeks.


More to come.


JLB


The first "seven weeks" began and ended because of the ruling king's command.

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;...
Daniel 9:25


The command given by Cyrus that began the prophetic clock of the first seven weeks:

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,

2 Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:

All the kingdoms of the earth the Lord God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. 3 Who is among you of all His people? May his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem which is in Judah, and build the house of the Lord God of Israel (He is God), which is in Jerusalem. Ezra 1:1-3


The command given by King Artaxerxes that stopped the work, which is the time marker of the prophetic clock of the first seven weeks:

23 Now when the copy of King Artaxerxes’ letter was read before Rehum, Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem against the Jews, and by force of arms made them cease. 24 Thus the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem ceased, and it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia. Ezra 4:23-24


....it was discontinued until the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.


The decree of the ruling king that began the work again and thus the prophetic clock of the sixty two weeks:

Then King Darius issued a decree, and a search was made in the archives, where the treasures were stored in Babylon. 2 And at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of Media, a scroll was found, and in it a record was written thus:

3 In the first year of King Cyrus, King Cyrus issued a decree concerning the house of God at Jerusalem: “Let the house be rebuilt, the place where they offered sacrifices; and let the foundations of it be firmly laid, its height sixty cubits and its width sixty cubits, 4 with three rows of heavy stones and one row of new timber. Let the expenses be paid from the king’s treasury. 5 Also let the gold and silver articles of the house of God, which Nebuchadnezzar took from the temple which is in Jerusalem and brought to Babylon, be restored and taken back to the temple which is in Jerusalem, each to its place; and deposit them in the house of God”—

6 Now therefore, Tattenai, governor of the region beyond the River, and Shethar-Boznai, and your companions the Persians who are beyond the River, keep yourselves far from there. 7 Let the work of this house of God alone; let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews build this house of God on its site.

8 Moreover I issue a decree as to what you shall do for the elders of these Jews, for the building of this house of God: Let the cost be paid at the king’s expense from taxes on the region beyond the River; this is to be given immediately to these men, so that they are not hindered. 9 And whatever they need—young bulls, rams, and lambs for the burnt offerings of the God of heaven, wheat, salt, wine, and oil, according to the request of the priests who are in Jerusalem—let it be given them day by day without fail, 10 that they may offer sacrifices of sweet aroma to the God of heaven, and pray for the life of the king and his sons.

11 Also I issue a decree that whoever alters this edict, let a timber be pulled from his house and erected, and let him be hanged on it; and let his house be made a refuse heap because of this. 12 And may the God who causes His name to dwell there destroy any king or people who put their hand to alter it, or to destroy this house of God which is in Jerusalem. I Darius issue a decree; let it be done diligently.

3 Then Tattenai, governor of the region beyond the River, Shethar-Boznai, and their companions diligently did according to what King Darius had sent. 14 So the elders of the Jews built, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they built and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the command of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

Cyrus - the command to start the prophetic clock.
Artaxerxes - The command to stop the work which ended the seven weeks.
Darius - The command to begin the work again, which began the 62 weeks.

Messiah the Prince - The event that ended the 62 weeks.

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolation's are determined.
Daniel 9:26

The events of verse 26 span a period of time, that is greater than the seven years left in the prophecy.

Messiah cut off [crucified] - 33 AD
The city and sanctuary destroyed - 70 AD

  • That's a 37 year time span that occurs after the 69th week, and does not "fit" in a seven year period.

Things to understand at this point in the prophecy.
  • The events of verse 26 does not take place during the 70 week prophecy.
  • The prophecy has not been fulfilled.
  • The 70th week has not begun.


JLB
 
However, if you agree that the Lord will both Rapture His people and destroy the antichrist and the same time, then please at least explain how this could happen before or in the middle of the tribulation.
what makes you think he wont take care of it all after we are out of here. his time frame may not be the same has ours. the earth will be destroyed by fire. i like what a former pastor use to say the V.W and the Cadillac . along with the mansions and the average home will all burn up. this world is a powder keg of nuclear weapons waiting to go off.
 
what makes you think he wont take care of it all after we are out of here


  • Jesus destroys the wicked after all His people are safely caught up together with Him in the air, at His coming.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

  • None of His people are left on earth, at this time because all His people will be together with Him in the air, in the clouds.

The destruction of the wicked will commence, starting with the false Messiah.




JLB
 
If someone convinces you that something will happen but it doesn't happen, then you were deceived.
the only one deceived is you. if your not expecting /looking/watching for the return of Christ your not going. beyond that i have no time for this
 
  • Jesus destroys the wicked after all His people are safely caught up together with Him in the air, at His coming.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

  • None of His people are left on earth, at this time because all His people will be together with Him in the air, in the clouds.

The destruction of the wicked will commence, starting with the false Messiah.




JLB
what do you think i posted when i said after he comes when he takes church out
 
what do you think i posted when i said after he comes when he takes church out



If the antichrist is destroyed before the tribulation, then how can there be a tribulation?


JLB
 
Things to understand at this point in the prophecy.
  • The events of verse 26 does not take place during the 70 week prophecy.
  • The prophecy has not been fulfilled.
  • The 70th week has not begun.

If the 70th week of Daniel has not yet begun, then when did Jesus confirm the new covenant with many?
 
If the 70th week of Daniel has not yet begun, then when did Jesus confirm the new covenant with many?

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:26-27


And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

The prince who is to come refers to a future prince that puts an end to sacrifice in the temple.
Jesus didn't confirm the New Covenant for a 7 year period.
Jesus is not the prince of the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary.
Jesus did not bring an end to sacrifice and offerings as they continued another 40 years after he was crucified.
Jesus is not associated with the abomination of desolation.



JLB
 
The prince who is to come refers to a future prince that puts an end to sacrifice in the temple.
Jesus didn't confirm the New Covenant for a 7 year period.
Jesus is not the prince of the people who destroyed the city and sanctuary.
Jesus did not bring an end to sacrifice and offerings as they continued another 40 years after he was crucified.
Jesus is not associated with the abomination of desolation.


Your explanation here needs further clarification, because it appears you are saying two conflicting things.

First, you said: "Jesus did not bring an end to sacrifice and offerings as they continued another 40 years after he was crucified."

OK, I can see how you could say this if you are looking at the sacrifice and offering as a temple requirement from the perspective of man, but the question is when did the Lord no longer require their sacrifice?

BUT, that is not what present the conflicts in your statement, as you also said: "The prince who is to come refers to a future prince that puts an end to sacrifice in the temple."

Here you are declaring that a future prince puts and end to the sacrifice and offering, which comes with the implication then that sacrifice and offering has not yet ended, because it is yet for a future time. Now if as you say the sacrifice and offering will then be ended at some future time, why did you say that they continued for another 40 years after Jesus was crucified? That statement implies that the sacrifice and offering ended 40 years after Jesus was crucified, when the city and the temple were destroyed in 70AD.

So how could the sacrifice and offering end 40 years after Jesus was crucified and yet still be an unfulfilled future event?
 
First, you said: "Jesus did not bring an end to sacrifice and offerings as they continued another 40 years after he was crucified."

Yes that's exactly what I said.

Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offerings, because they continued for another 37 years.


Did sacrifices continue after Jesus was crucified? Yes.

So, as we can plainly see, Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering.

as you also said: "The prince who is to come refers to a future prince that puts an end to sacrifice in the temple."

Yes, it is the prince who is to come, that puts an end to sacrifice and offering in the temple.

Here you are declaring that a future prince puts and end to the sacrifice and offering, which comes with the implication then that sacrifice and offering has not yet ended, because it is yet for a future time.


Ok, lets look at Daniel and see what the language of the prophecy says, and the time table about each event.

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
Daniel 9:25

This shows us that these events described take place over 69 weeks.
Rebuilding of Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince.

26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26

These events of verse 26, take place after the 69 weeks, and take place over a time span of 37 years.

  • The 70th week has not begun yet, and does so in verse 27, when "he" shall confirm a covenant with many for 1 week [7 years].
  • "he" who confirms a 7 year covenant, is also the one who brings an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the week, in the middle of the 7 year period, in the middle of the 70th week.
  • During the last half of the 70th week, the abomination of desolation takes place.
  • The 70th week, and the events thereof, take place after the events of verse 26, which includes the destruction of the city and sanctuary, which we know happened in 70 AD.
  • The 70th week and the events described during that period take place in verse 27.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:27


The 70 week prophecy in broken up into three different time frames:

  1. 7 Weeks
  2. 62 Weeks
  3. 1 week

JLB
 
JLB you put together 70 weeks including a gap but do not see . But will not see the Cross put an end to the Sacrifices ? Just as Jesus said in that generation
That is a very low view of the Cross of Salvation
 
JLB you put together 70 weeks including a gap but do not see . But will not see the Cross put an end to the Sacrifices ? Just as Jesus said in that generation
That is a very low view of the Cross of Salvation

Did the sacrifices cease when Jesus was crucified on the cross?

The 70th week begins when the prince who is to come confirms a covenant with many for 1 week.

Do you believe Jesus confirmed the New Covenant for just 7 years?

Now that would be a very low view of the cross.


JLB
 
I have never even come close to saying anything like that .. never mind you do not want to see any thing more
 
I have never even come close to saying anything like that .. never mind you do not want to see any thing more

I guess you don't realize that you are saying just that, when you claim it was Jesus that Daniel 9:27 refers to.

That is what the context of our discussion is about, and my comment.

The prince who is to come is not a reference to Jesus.


The prince who is to come is the one who puts an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of Daniels 70th week, which is a 7 year period.

It the same prince who is to come that confirms a 7 year covenant.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:27

Can't you see this is not Jesus?

Of course we all know that Jesus was the final sacrifice for sin.

However, the sacrifices continued well after the cross.


If you have something biblical to add to the discussion, about the context or language of this prophecy, then please by all means do so, I would really love to hear some insight from you about this subject.

But if you just want to insult me with derogatory comments, for whatever reason, at least just send them to me via private message.



JLB
 
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