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The Pre-Tribulation Rapture?

dianegcook said:
My 2 cents,
It depends on which wedding you go to.

The so called antichrist will set up an one world religious, economic, political and educational system.
The 4 hidden dynasties.
The beast..

In Rev.17:5
We have the New order of religion.
She is arrayed in purple and scarlet, royalty,
She is the mother of harlots.

These do not remain a virgin bride, they went to the wrong wedding.
Those whom do not receive the Mark, were not deceived by the false one.

As the parable of the 10 virgins.
5 wise 5 foolish
5 foolish had no oil, which represents anointing.
They had to go where they sell and buy.
And while they went to buy, the Bridegroom came. Matt.25:1-10

In Rev.13:17
No man might buy or sell, save he that had the Mark.

Also in 1Cor.15:23
It states the order.
Christ the first fruits, He became the first fruit, afterward they that are His at His Coming.
It does not state at His appearing, or secret rapture but His coming here.

1Thess.4:14
Those whom sleep, rest in Jesus ,will God BRING with Him.
He is coming here to reign.

Also this wrath thingy:
The so called antichrist wrath is not God's wrath.
God's wrath fall on those whom are deceived by the false one , takes his Mark, becomes a harlot, no longer a virgin bride, spiritually.
Rev.12:12
Satan and his angels booted out of heaven and are here on earth, having great wrath..
Make war with those which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev12:17

Satan wants to destroy you spiritually.

The wrath of God,
Now, my belief is that the seals are the knowledge of the trumps, that one can recognize the trumps when being sound.
They are being sealed in their foreheads, mind.
The trumps could not sound until the elect are sealed with this knowledge.
The trumps are the action of the seals.
The vials are the wrath of God being poured.
In Daniel 12:4 it states to seal the book, in Dan.12:9, 10 they are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
But the wise shall understand.

Oops, back to God's wrath, when and whom does it pour on?
As I believe, the wrath comes once, thus to me it confirms my belief about the seals, trumps and vials are one in the same, the seals knowing before hand the trumps and vials.

The seal:
Rev.6:17
For the great day of His wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand.
The trump
Rev.11:18
Thy wrath is come, give reward to the saints..
Notice it is after the 2 witnesses were killed, during Satan's wrath, the tribulation....

The vial
Rev.16:17
Poured out his vial into the air, It is done.
The wrath falls on those whom are deceived by Satan, by taking his Mark in your forehead, mind.
Those whom become the harlot..
And of course falls on Satan and his angels.

My 2 cents
Click to expand...

No like button :sad
But kuddos
 
Atonement said:
You asked me a question, I said I can supply Scripture. You said "supply it". I did and now you ask me this?
Click to expand...

I asked you to supply it.

"it" being a scripture.

You posted this.

Atonement said:
Revelation 14:9-11
Click to expand...

That is a reference to a scripture, not a scripture.

You are free according to the rules of this forum, to do this, and it is your choice.

It is also my choice to ask you to supply scripture.

Either way you don't have to comply and are free to disregard what I request.

The language of the actual scripture is what we study.

Revelation 14:9-11 has no language or content, or scripture truth, but is a reference to scripture.


God bless you sir, and have a nice day.



JLB
 
What you actually want me to do is rebuttal my opinion on the Scriptures.

Scriptures will speak for themselves if left in the context they are given which is why I gave Rev. 14:9-11 so it's left in its context for you to study.

You're trying to play on words when you say:

"That is a reference to a scripture, not a scripture"

I have left you and others with the truth - and that is:

Live your life pleasing the Father and you can be certain of your salvation.

No matter the timing of the Rapture of the Church...

Just be ready at all times cause no one is promised tomorrow.

Simple right? So why make it more than that?
 
reba said:
Where does it say antichrist ? be careful of what and how you accuse others..
Click to expand...

The language and references Paul uses refers to the antichrist, who John says is coming.

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18

Coming means to be revealed, or made known or made manifest.

Coming - Strong's G2064 - erchomai
  1. to come
    1. of persons
      1. to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
      2. to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public
  2. metaph.
    1. to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence
    2. be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto
  3. to go, to follow one
Paul in his second letter to the Thessalonians reiterates this idea by expounding the word revealed.


...the man of sin is revealed
...that he may be revealed in his own time.
...then the lawless one will be revealed.

Paul uses several names to describe this individual, and associates his revealing at the time just before the coming of the Lord.
  • the man of sin
  • the son of perdition
  • the lawless one

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


If I were to refer to:

The Lamb of God
The Son of Man
The Savior
The Messiah
The King of kings
My Redeemer


Anyone who is a student of the word, would understand that I am referring to Jesus Christ, without actually using the name Jesus Christ.


Likewise, when I see Paul using these names:
  • the man of sin
  • the son of perdition
  • the lawless one
And associating them with the coming of the Lord, and him being destroyed by the brightness of His coming, I know exactly who he is referring to.


John says the antichrist is coming, which means he will be made known, or revealed, which agree with what Paul taught us.

Understanding these things comes from Bible Study.

We study the bible to learn, and obey what the scripture teach us.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15

and again

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9


Both scriptures use the word diligence.



JLB
 
Atonement said:
What you actually want me to do is rebuttal my opinion on the Scriptures.

Scriptures will speak for themselves if left in the context they are given which is why I gave Rev. 14:9-11 so it's left in its context for you to study.
Click to expand...

Scriptures do in deed speak for themselves, as I have demonstrated by posting the scriptures that show us the truth about the pre-trib Rapture theory.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18


The "gathering" is the event, when all those who are Christ's, both the dead in Christ, and those who are alive and remain are gathered together, in the air, in the clouds, unto Him, and are forever with Him.

At the coming of the Lord, there are three things that will happen that pertain to this discussion topic.

1. The resurrection of the dead.
2. The Rapture, in which those are alive and remain, will be caught up together with the dead in Christ, who were just raised.
3. The destruction of the antichrist.


Can you tell me why this won't be happening before the great tribulation?


Live your life pleasing the Father and you can be certain of your salvation.
Click to expand...

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15


Do you think God approves of and is pleased with those who teach false doctrine?



JLB
 
"Destroy at the brightness of His coming"

Destroy what?

1. His ministry
2. His rule/reign over the nation's
3. His spiritual blindness over the world
4. His person

What is destroyed?

Let the interpretation begin -
 
JLB said:
The language and references Paul uses refers to the antichrist, who John says is coming.
Click to expand...
Do the Scriptures say so .. or is that mans interpretation

How many time have you asked some one to post the plain simple words of Jesus ...
 
JLB said:
Scriptures do in deed speak for themselves, as I have demonstrated by posting the scriptures that show us the truth about the pre-trib Rapture theory.


14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18


The "gathering" is the event, when all those who are Christ's, both the dead in Christ, and those who are alive and remain are gathered together, in the air, in the clouds, unto Him, and are forever with Him.

At the coming of the Lord, there are three things that will happen that pertain to this discussion topic.

1. The resurrection of the dead.
2. The Rapture, in which those are alive and remain, will be caught up together with the dead in Christ, who were just raised.
3. The destruction of the antichrist.


Can you tell me why this won't be happening before the great tribulation?




Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15


Do you think God approves of and is pleased with those who teach false doctrine?



JLB
Click to expand...

Maybe you should stop then. Cause you have only shared your opinion and interpretations. You can't nor can prove one way or the other. You have tried here as I have read this entire thread. But nothing has been proven or this subject would have been closed a long time ago
 
Atonement said:
Maybe you should stop then. Cause you have only shared your opinion and interpretations. You can't nor can prove one way or the other. You have tried here as I have read this entire thread. But nothing has been proven or this subject would have been closed a long time ago
Click to expand...

Here is my reply to you from post 124:

God bless you sir, and have a nice day.


You seem to keep wanting to continue, however you refuse to address the scripture texts I have provided.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18


The "gathering" is the event, when all those who are Christ's, both the dead in Christ, and those who are alive and remain are gathered together, in the air, in the clouds, unto Him, and are forever with Him.

At the coming of the Lord, there are three things that will happen that pertain to this discussion topic.

1. The resurrection of the dead.
2. The Rapture, in which those are alive and remain, will be caught up together with the dead in Christ, who were just raised.
3. The destruction of the antichrist.


Can you tell me why this won't be happening before the great tribulation?


JLB
 
reba said:
Do the Scriptures say so .. or is that mans interpretation

How many time have you asked some one to post the plain simple words of Jesus ...
Click to expand...

Who does the following references refer to?

The Lamb of God
The Son of Man
The Savior
The Messiah
The King of kings
My Redeemer




JLB
 
Of course ... I'm letting not you alone but anyone reading this thread not to give into the interpretation of Scripture by any side of the debate.

I'm here only to give the readers an understanding that none of this matters to their salvation. This subject matter will neither save nor condemn their souls.

You can disagree all day long, but then it would be you providing false doctrine. Only the Blood of Christ can save us.

If you had any solid proof then it couldn't be debated because it would be doctrine proof. Neither you nor I have this... What we have is a interpretation of what we believe will happen.

If someone came along and started another religion, Muslim, Buddhism etc. Those would be considered false doctrine. Please learn the difference.

Thank you
 
Isa_54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Php_3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Joh_1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

over and over we see messiah translated as Christ..


JLB you would do well to play by the same rules you want others to play by..
 
I have never before seen it alleged that THE BEAST in Revelation is not necessarily the same as THE ANTICHRIST
perhaps it is so

I have seen it said that the MAN OF SIN/SON OF PERDITION is neither of those above
and two different partial preterists supplied two different historical people that they proposed as son of perdition who was metaphorically destroyed by the brightness of the Lord's Parousia already

I have seen the SECOND BEAST in Revelation referred to as "the False Prophet of the AntiChrist" -- and scripture itself describes him as THE FALSE PROPHET

Looks like to me that neither BEAST is 'destroyed', but gets to swim in the Lake of Fire both before, during, and after the Millennium

Rev 20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And finally we get all of our Super-Villains in one place

What all this has to do with PreTrib -- I couldn't tell ya
 
Last edited:
By providing answers to these sorta questions; Mr. JLB will then run a time-line to provide his interpretation of the order of events based around the Antichrist/false prophet.
 
Anto9us said:
I have never before seen it alleged that THE BEAST in Revelation is not necessarily the same as THE ANTICHRIST
perhaps it is so
Click to expand...
If you are talking to or about me .. i did not allege they are not the same. I said something to the effect we do not find the word antichrist in The Revelation of Christ.. I said something like the scripture does not say the beast = antichrist.. we , mankind, draws that conclusion but the Word does not say it...

Something down the lines of the Scripture says what it says ..

Saying this to you Anto9us because you are new here and would not know my history on the subject... :)
 
No, reba, I do not know your history on the subject
and I confess I did indeed draw a conclusion that you were at least somehow CHALLENGING our (mankind's) conclusion
that beast = antichrist

yes, I am new here
I have a couple things to ask you in a Conversation
not related to this thread
 
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