The Pre WRATH rapture of the church

[Cornelius]

(CNN) -- The devastation caused by Tuesday's earthquake could decimate what fragile medical care exists and spawn a "perfect storm" in a country already struggling to fight rare tropical and infectious diseases, health experts said.

On Tuesday, a magnitude 7.0 earthquake ripped apart buildings, shearing huge slabs of concrete off structures in the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. About 3 million people -- one-third of Haiti's population -- were affected by the quake, the Red Cross estimated.

The disaster cut power, electricity and other utilities. This could leave people without clean drinking water and at greater risk of malnutrition and disease. The potential new mass of displaced persons could create crowded, unsanitary conditions that facilitate the spread of contagious respiratory infections, said Dr. Peter Hotez, head of the department of microbiology at George Washington University.

"What you have is the perfect storm of infection," Hotez said. "What you have is a breakdown. It is already a fragile infrastructure with high rates of infectious and neglected tropical disease. Now there are potential breakdowns in sanitation, clean water, housing and subsequent crowding. That's a terrible mix."

So , this is a very small example of what is coming our way. The Christians on this island were not raptured. I see the main Cathedral has collapsed. Prayers were sung during the quake. But now they need somebody there who can walk in miracles. Somebody with the true gospel of the power of Jesus. They have no medical care. They need Jesus to heal them now. They are running out of food and water: They need Jesus to multiply what they have.

That is why the tribulation is coming. Because we have forgotten HOW. We deny God , and we deny His power that He said would operated through us.The Word has become powerless in the hands of Christians. They too are just running through the streets, praying powerless prayers and dying.

This is happening as I write this. Its not tale. It is was is waiting for all of us.

Are we ready ? I think not.

"It's quite a disaster in a place that has no safety net," he said.

That is correct, not even God.We do not know anymore how to make God our safety net when "real stuff" happens to us.We do not have the faith it takes, to bring forth a miracle.

 

[veteran]

I've quit trying to witness to those on the pre-trib secret rapture theory, because I know many are going to be in that because of God having blinded them. I'll only spend time with a pre-tribber who is willing to discipline theirself in all of God's Word to know The Bible shows many problems with that doctrine, a doctrine which only began among the British Churches in the 1830's.

For me, God has blinded them for His greater Purpose. I think we'll find out what that Purpose is when the tribulation timing does finally come.

Ezek 13:17-23
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

That's one of the main reasons I think many who love our Lord, but are being blinded into the pre-trib secret rapture doctrine, because God is going to tear those souls out of the hands of the false prophets that led them into it, so as to show those false prophets His Glory.

 

[Benoni]

There are many returns of the Lord, but there is no such thing as the "second" coming or "rapture".

Nowhere speaks of the "second coming" of Christ. Interesting, isn't it - how many of the major and most commonly accepted doctrines of professing Christianity cannot be found in the Bible? Even without the vast and conclusive testimony of scripture, even without the illuminating effect of the Holy Spirit of Truth, we would be inclined to suspect the "orthodox" teachings of the churches on the so-called "second coming of Christ" simply because all of the preachers and teachers and professors of Mystery Babylon are so united in dogmatically proclaiming it!

The term - "the second coming of Christ" - is not scriptural and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible; yet it has influenced the thinking and teaching of most Christians to accept and believe concepts that simply are not true. We have been so confused in our thinking that everything in the scriptures pertaining to the coming of the Lord, His appearing, His manifestation have to fit into His coming as a man two thousand years ago, or to His so-called "second coming" when every eye shall see Him. This is wrong. Many texts speak of the coming of Christ, the coming of the Son of man, the coming of the Lord or similar phrases. The word "second" never occurs with a word that can be translated "coming". The "second coming" is not a biblical expression and first occurred among Christians as late as the middle of the second century after Christ. I cannot emphasize too strongly that the word "second" is NEVER used in Holy Writ with the word "coming". That is the simple and plain and incontrovertible truth, and this fact is elementary and basic to a correct understanding of the coming of the Lord.

In Mk. 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS. In Mat. 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING. In Rev. 16:15 He comes as a THIEF. In Mat. 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM. In Rev. 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR. In Mal. 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING. In Phil. 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER. In II Thes. 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE. In Mal. 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP. In I Thes. 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR. In Hos. 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN. In Rev. 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE. In Mat. 25:31-34 He comes as KING. In I Pet. 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD. In Mat. 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS. In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS. In Jn. 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS. In II Thes. 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS. In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT. In Rev. 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS. And time and space fail me to tell of how He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God; He comes to the Mount of Olives; He comes to His temple; He comes in glory; He comes as Lord; He comes in His Kingdom; He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.

You haven't provided any Biblical evidence that there is no rapture. Nor did you provide any Biblical evidence that Christ is not coming back.

I, however, will provide Biblical evidence that Christ is coming back. I took this article fragment from a random source, but it uses Bible verses to make its argument:

The Second Coming is when Jesus Christ will return to earth in fulfillment of His promises and to fulfill the prophecies made about Him. Jesus Himself promised, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). Revelation 19:11-12 proclaims this about the Second Coming, "I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself."

Those who witnessed Christ's ascension into heaven after his death and resurrection heard the angels declare in Acts 1:11, "Men of Galilee…why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." The Second Coming is the literal return of Jesus Christ to earth as King in power and glory to rule for a thousand years (Revelation 20:1-6).

You can read the rest of the article here: http://www.allaboutgod.com/the-second-coming.htm


Now here's Biblical evidence for the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17,


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[Cornelius]

There are many returns of the Lord, but there is no such thing as the "second" coming or "rapture".

You are right, and there is one return that most are unaware of. This happens before the "coming with the clouds" Before He comes with the clouds, He must first come in His people. That is why we are called the "Body of Christ" He must first manifest in His body. Jesus speaks of the "coming" when the disciples asked Him about "when will we see You again?"

Read John 16. Its not His return with the clouds He is talking about, He is talking about Rev 12 : The woman on the moon return.

 

[Benoni]

The following was written by JP Eby

Comes with CloudS
Some people get bent all out of shape when we tell them that Jesus is not returning riding upon a rain cloud. Let me assure you - the prophecies of the Bible are to be believed! But let us be careful that we do not make them mean something which God did not intend. The mistake that many make is to say that all those prophecies are to be fulfilled in a very physical and natural sense, when the New Testament interpretations indicate that the prophecies do indeed have a literal fulfillment but with a spiritual interpretation. We need to understand that much of the language of the Bible is couched in symbolism, metaphors and allegories.

Another proof that the "clouds" with which Christ comes are in reality the sons of God IN THEIR GLORY is couched in the terminology of the scriptures on this subject. Note that in most places the passages in question speak of Christ coming "WITH CLOUDS." There is only one other group or plurality of objects of which it is stated that Christ comes "with" them, and that is - the SAINTS! The Bible never says that Jesus returns "to" the clouds or "out of" the clouds. It is very careful to tell us that lie comes "with" clouds. And it also tells us that tie comes "with" His saints. "To the end He may establish your hearts ... at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ W-I-T-H ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13). Jude says, "And Enoch also ... prophesied ... saying, Behold, the Lord cometh W-I-T-H TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS" (Jude 14). The Amplified is helpful, when it reads, "Behold,the Lord comes W-I-T-H MYRIADS OF HOLY ONES - ten thousands of His saints." But the Interlineary reading from the Diaglott translation gives the clearest of all renderings from the Greek text, so we note, "Lo, comes Lord I-N HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF." "Myriads of HIMSELF." All of them partakers of His divine nature, conformed to His image, filled with His life. Myriads of Himself, of His own kind, born of His seed, a many brethren company of SONS - all His sons. And again we read the testimony: "And the Lord my God shall come, and ALL, THE SAINTS W-T-T-H_T-H-E-E" (Zech. 14:5). The beloved John sees this same scene in wonder-filled vision and speaking in prophetical language writes: "Behold, He cometh W-I-T-H CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).
Rom. 8:17 contains a marvelous truth. "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER." To be GLORIFIED TOGETHER is the hope that springs perennial within the breast of all who have by the spirit beheld HIS GLORY. This wonderful experience of being GLORIFIED TOGETHER is a reference of our union with Christ as members of His body, and speaks of a time to come when this entire company of the sons of God, IN UNION WITH CHRIST THE HEAD, shall be GLORIFIED TOGETHER - IMMERSED INTO THE LIFE OF CHRIST, sharing with Him in the fullness of His glory. This entire company shall be joined to Christ to share with Him in the blessed glorification experience when we shall partake of HIS GLORY, bcing fully transformed into the body of His likeness. Verse eighteen of Romans eight refers to that glory as "The glory which shall be revealed IN US." Therefore, it is a glory which is yet to be revealed IN US, that is, in these bodies we shall experience that great glory of Christ when we shall be clothed upon with our heavenly house so that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
We are plainly taught that when Christ who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear WITH HIM in glory (Col. 3:4). He can do nothing without us. We are His body. Oh, marvelous thought! Christ has bound us to Himself with ties so strong (no man would sprak of his own hand as being near or far, his hand is part of himself; no man would undertake anything without a full participation on the part of every member of his body in that event), Christ has bound us, I repeat, so eternally and utterly to Himself that we MUST figure in His movements. Of course we shall appear with Him! It could not be otherwise - we are His body. Each elect member of His body has been so grafted into the trunk of the eternal Godhead, so incorporated in His life that He and His body are one. Oh, the unutterable glory of this union with Christ! To what an ineffable destiny it commits us. We no longer concern ourselves about whether or not we shall "go to heaven." The truth of the matter is, we would rather not go, if Christ were not there. Ah, He IS heaven! The faintest glimmer of light from His holy countenance beside which the sun is but a shadow, suffices the heart. Paul could not have done otherwise than sing there in prison when at midnight with Silas, he rejoiced. His back was bleeding with the stripes; it was midnight; he was in prison. But he sings as a participant of Christ; heaven's ineffable light bursts in about him, the glory of the Lord is upon him, and the Lord manifests Himself in this cloud!
We are to participate in Christ's coming. We are moving toward the most stupendous transactions in the history of the human race. Nothing can befall Him that does not befall us. We are yet to participate in a fuller measure in the fruits of redemption. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. With Him we shall reign. The stream of life, which proceedeth from the throne, and from the Lamb and which breaks in upon us, so that even NOW "rivers of living water" flow from our innermost being, is going to just overflow all its banks in this day, so that death will be literally SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. Oh, that God may give us a heart to make due preparation for the participation in the yet unfulfilled history of Christ. For as we have been made to partake of the death of the Federal Head of the new race, and in Him were resurrected and made to sit in the heavenlies, so, in that sublime event toward which the church moves, the coming of Christ with clouds, we too, shall participate. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!

There are many returns of the Lord, but there is no such thing as the "second" coming or "rapture".

You are right, and there is one return that most are unaware of. This happens before the "coming with the clouds" Before He comes with the clouds, He must first come in His people. That is why we are called the "Body of Christ" He must first manifest in His body. Jesus speaks of the "coming" when the disciples asked Him about "when will we see You again?"

Read John 16. Its not His return with the clouds He is talking about, He is talking about Rev 12 : The woman on the moon return.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

"Oh no never.God loves us. He will never allow hardship like that to happen to His beloved."


This is exactly the kind of thinking that shows WHY the church so badly needs tribulation!

The church (as a whole, not every individual) is coming so short of the calling and faith and love and works of Christ that we are called to that for the most part we arent even being hated or persecuted for His sake. This is because so many christians are exactly like the world. They want to be seen as cool and normal instead of as outcasts, strangers in this world, foolish for Christs sake.

Where is the teaching and understanding of this in the statement and kind of thinking in that above quote: Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

To think that the church cannot be here in " the tribulation" because God wont allow His bride to " go through hardship" is to ignore the testimony and doctrine of the whole bible including the new testament. Do we think that the apostle Paul was NOT the Lords bride? Look at all he suffered for the kingdom.

Suffering for the kingdom is what we are called to!2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2Th 1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

 

[veteran]

Yes, God's Word does declare a second coming of our Lord Jesus...

Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(KJV)

There's only two advents (coming) prophesied of Christ in the Old Testament, and the New Testament agrees with both. His first coming was meek as a Lamb to die on the cross. His second coming will be in Power with a sword that cuts both ways, and a rod of iron to rule over the nations. His appearance to His disciples after His Resurrection was not the same thing, as that was for a witness of His Resurrection, and to declare The Comforter. This is why the Old Testament prophecy does not treat that appearance as an advent.

 

[XTruth]

To THE:

The chapters of Matthew(24) and Mark (13) that deal w the days of the Tribulation do not speak of the Rapture... this is true; but Luke does reveal the Rapture in his account of Jesus' words on the subject of the Tribulation in Luke 21. In Lk. 21:34-36 we have the promise of Jesus that the saved will be accounted worthy to escape all these things, and to stand before the Son of Man. The things they will escape are those of Mt. 24:4-26; Lk. 21:4-19 and Rev. 6 -- Rev. 19. This is the first instance in the New Testament that the Rapture is spoken of. You had asked if the Rapture is before the revealing of the Antichrist... Paul says it is very plainly in 2 Thessalonians. I will copy and paste what has already been given to you....









Rapture before Antichrist

The church will continue to hinder lawlessness until the rapture. And then the Antichrist will be revealed. This is conclusive proof that the rapture takes place before Daniel's 70th week and the tribulation of Rev. 6:1-19:21. According to Daniel 9:27, Antichrist will be here for 7 years, for he makes a 7-year covenant with Israel. If he is here for 7 years, which will be the last 7 years of this age, and if he who hinders lawlessness refers to the church and is taken out of the way before he comes, then the rapture will take place before the last 7 years of this age and before the Antichrist comes at the beginning of those 7 years.

—Dake's Topics

Rapture Before the Tribulation, 7 Proofs of the

7 PROOFS OF THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION

Proof 1

In 2 Thess. 2:1-12 we have a clear proof that the church and O.T. saints will be raptured before the day of the Lord, that is before the second advent, and before the Revelation of the Antichrist, before Daniel's 70th week, before the future tribulation, and before the last seven years of this age which ends with the second advent of Christ to the earth.

In 2 Thess. 2:1-4 Paul beseeches saints not to be deceived by any means or by anybody, as to the coming of the day of the Lord, or the second advent. The two things that were to precede the day of the Lord are:



1. "A great falling away" and

2. "That man of sin be revealed" (2 Thess. 2:3).



Besides these two things Paul revealed that a third great event would take place, this one to precede the day of the Lord or second advent, and also precede the revelation of the man of sin. He said, "he who now letteth [hinders] will let [hinder] until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed" (2 Thess. 2:7-8). Thus it is clear that the hinderer of lawlessness will be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come. "Our gathering together unto him" of 2 Thess. 2:1 and the hinderer of lawlessness being "taken out of the way" of 2 Thess. 2:7-8 refer to the same event-the rapture of the church and O.T. saints before the Revelation of the Antichrist. And then-when he who hinders lawlessness is taken out of the way-shall that Wicked be revealed.

Two Comings of the Lord From Heaven,But Only One Coming to the Earth

1. A coming of the Lord out of heaven for the saints to meet them in the air and to take them to heaven without coming to the earth (1 Thess. 1:10; 1 Thess 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; 2 Thess. 2:1,7-8; John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; Col. 3:4; Eph. 5:27; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10).

2. A coming of the Lord out of heaven with His previously raptured saints to bring them to the earth to fight at Armageddon and to set up a kingdom in the world forever (Rev. 19:1-21; Jude 14-15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2 Thess 2:7-8; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Mt. 16:27; Mt 24:29-31; Mt 25:31-46; Zech. 14:1-5; Dan. 2:44-45; Dan 7:9-14,18,22,27).

Twelve Truths of 2 Thess. 2:1-12 That the Thessalonians Knew About

1. That it was possible to be deceived about the rapture and the second advent (2 Thess. 1:1-3).

2. That the day of the Lord, or the second advent, was not at hand and therefore, it was not the time for the Lord to be here reigning on earth (2 Thess. 2:3).

3. That they were not to permit themselves to be deceived (2 Thess. 2:3).

4. That the day of the Lord would begin only at the second advent (2 Thess. 2:3; Zech. 14:1-5).

5. That this day of the Lord, or the second advent, could not have already come because the great apostasy and the Revelation of the man of sin had not yet come (2 Thess. 2:3).

6. That the man of sin will take over the Jewish temple at Jerusalem and declare himself to be God (2 Thess. 2:4). See Rev. 13;Rev 14:9-11; Rev 15:1-4; Rev 20:4-6; Dan. 9:27; Mt. 24:15-22,29-31.

7. That the man of sin (the Wicked one or Antichrist) has a definite time to be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

8. That "he" who hinders lawlessness and holds back the man of sin will be entirely removed before he will fully come (2 Thess. 2:5-8).

9. That the mystery of lawlessness is already at work in the world (2 Thess. 2:7).

10. That Paul's doctrines had not changed regarding the rapture and the day of the Lord, as false teachers had reported, even forging a letter in his name (2 Thess. 2:2,5).

11. That the man of sin (Antichrist) would be destroyed by Christ at the second advent when the day of the Lord begins (2 Thess. 2:7-8). See Dan. 7:11; Rev. 19:20;Rev 20:10.

12. That Antichrist will come after the working of Satan with all power and great deceptions (2 Thess. 2:8-12). See Mt. 24:24; Rev. 13:1-18; Dan. 8:24-25; Dan 11:37-45.

Seven Other Facts About the Rapture in 1&2 Thessalonians

1. The church waits for Jesus to come from heaven (1 Thess. 1:10).

2. The church will be taken to glory (1 Thess. 2:12; cf. Col. 3:4).

3. Soul winners will have great joy at this coming (1 Thess. 2:19-20).

4. The saints will be established unblameable before God in heaven (1 Thess. 3:13).

5. Both the dead and living in Christ will be raptured to heaven to live with Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18; cf. John. 14:1-3; Phil. 3:21).

6. God has appointed all saved men to escape His latter-day wrath on men (1 Thess. 5:1-11; cf. Lk. 21:34-36).

7. Saints will be made whole in body, soul, and spirit at the rapture (1 Thess. 5:23; cf. Phil. 3:21).

Who Or What Is the Hinderer of Lawlessness?

Paul definitely said that the hinderer of lawlessness would continue to hinder lawlessness "until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed," whom the Lord shall destroy at His second advent (2 Thess. 2:7-8). If the question of who or what the hinderer of lawlessness is can be settled, the time of the rapture will be automatically settled.

Three Things Hindering Lawlessness in the World Today

1. Human governments (Gen. 9:1-8; Rom 13; 1 Peter 2:14)

2. The Holy Spirit (John. 14:16;Jn 15:26;Jn 16:7-11)

3. The church (Mt. 5:13-16; 1 Cor. 12:28; Rom 12:3-8; 1 Peter 4:10-19)



In no scripture in the two books to the Thessalonians did Paul mention governments or the Holy Spirit as being taken out of the world, but he repeatedly referred to the church as being raptured out of the world and from the earth (1 Thess. 1:10;1 Thess 2:19-20; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; 2 Thess. 2:1,7-8). We must, therefore, conclude that the church is the hinderer of lawlessness, and for the following reasons.



1. Human governments will never be taken out of the world to permit the Revelation of the Antichrist. He himself will even reign over ten kingdoms when he comes (Rev. 17:8-17). And many other governments will be here in other parts of the earth throughout all the days that the man of sin (Antichrist) will be here (Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-14; Rev. 16:13-16; Zech. 14:1-5).

2. The Holy Spirit will never be taken from the world, for Jesus promised that He would abide with us forever (John. 14:16). In Acts 2:16-21; Zech. 12:10 - Zech 13:1,Mt. 24:14; Rev. 7:14; Rev 19:10 and other scriptures we have much proof that the Holy Spirit will still be here throughout the tribulation and the reign of Antichrist. Therefore, He could not be the hinderer of lawlessness that will be taken out of the way.

3. The church will be taken out of the world by rapture, as stated in the above references. It is the only one of the above mentioned three hinderers of lawlessness that is to be taken out of the world, so it must be the hinderer of 2 Thess. 2:7-8.



That this hinderer of lawlessness will literally be taken out of the world is clear from the Greek statement, ek mesou genetai, which means, "out of the midst be gone" (2 Thess. 2:7-8). The Greek phrase ek mesou literally means "from among" and is so translated in Mt. 13:49; Acts 17:33;Acts 23:10; 1 Cor. 5:2; 2 Cor. 6:17; Col. 2:13-14; 2 Thess. 2:7. Whatever is referred to as the hinderer is being taken out of the way, not being brought into the midst of men.

Out of 25 versions examined by this author, not one reads "born out of the midst of men" as said by some who teach that instead of referring to the revelation of Antichrist, this passage (2 Thess. 2:7-8) speaks of his birth. These versions render the passage in 13 different ways, and the thought in every one is not the birth of Antichrist but rather the fact that the hinderer of lawlessness is to be literally removed from the earth, from among men, before the revelation of that Wicked one.

The renderings of these versions are: "be removed" from the midst (4 times); "be gone"-not here (once); "be gotten out of the way" (3 times); "taken from the midst" not born into the midst (once); "coming to be out of the midst" (once); "is taken out of the way" (twice); "gone from the midst" (once); "the restraining power removed" (once); "disappear from the scene" (once); "be out of the way" (once); "steps out of the way" (once); "becomes out of the way" (once); "taken out of the way" (7 times).

Even if we believed that the Holy Spirit would be taken out of the world to permit the revelation of the man of sin, we could not possibly believe that He would abandon the church (the body of Christ), leaving it in the world to go through terrible sufferings without Him. Therefore, the church would be taken out of the world with Him, and thus the rapture of the church before the tribulation is proved either way.

Men have stumbled over the use of the pronoun "he" in 2 Thess. 2:7 for a long time and a great many teachers have not been able to bring themselves to the fact that a masculine pronoun could refer to the church when it has been universally taught that the church is the bride of Christ, a woman, a lady, and a virgin. If the pronoun "she" had been used in 2 Thess. 2:7 every Bible scholar who teaches that the church is the bride of Christ would have automatically believed and taught that this "she" identified the church as the hinderer of lawlessness and would have used this as proof of the church being taken out of the world before the tribulation and Revelation of the Antichrist.

—Dake's Topics

 

[Vic C.]

No offense to you, X, or any other pretribber or futurist in general, but it was interpretations like Dake's and other classic, pretrib and pre-millennial positions that caused me to reevaluate my position and look at others.

I too believe 2 Thess. 2 is clear, but not as it is proposed above. I also studied in detail, the PreWrath position as it was given to us by Van Kampen and taught by Rosenthal, Cooper and others. It would be my futurist choice if I had to choose one. So, if anyone has any questions on the finer points of PreWrath...

 

[Biblereader]

YOU ARE WELCOME!
God inspired me. And gave me the energy to type it up.

Thanks, Bible Reader. I've been struggling with this subject for a while now, but the quotes you gave put things back into perspective for me. As for all you who don't believe in the rapture, remember these words of Abraham to God:

Far be it from you to do such a thing--to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genises 18:25)

God will pour out his wrath "full strength" upon the earth at the time of the end, but He will spare the just who are cleansed by the blood of His Son.

 

[Biblereader]

Is Marv Rosenthal still publishing?
He's one who also gave me encouragement, via his pre-wrath books.

No offense to you, X, or any other pretribber or futurist in general, but it was interpretations like Dake's and other classic, pretrib and pre-millennial positions that caused me to reevaluate my position and look at others.

I too believe 2 Thess. 2 is clear, but not as it is proposed above. I also studied in detail, the PreWrath position as it was given to us by Van Kampen and taught by Rosenthal, Cooper and others. It would be my futurist choice if I had to choose one. So, if anyone has any questions on the finer points of PreWrath...

 

[Biblereader]

I'm glad to see so many Christians are aware of what the bible says about the coming tribulation for the saints.

I use to love Dakes and I have a Dakes Bible , until I realized he only saw the letter of the Word. But its still a good reference work if you want to look up a subject.

Here is the Bible version of the rapture/resurrection timing :

Mat 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We shall go into tribulation:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake.
Joh 16:33 These things have I spoken unto you, that in me ye may have peace. In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


But we are not going into the Wrath which follows the Tribulation:

1Th 5:9 For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,



So we will go into the tribulation and be hated by all nations. We can see how the USA at this very moment is starting to lead the world in the "its not PC to be a Christian" attitude. Everybody is correct except Christians. Then , after the tribulation, God will resurrect the dead and take those who are still alive at the coming of the Lord and change them in a twinkling of an eye(Some call this rapture, but that word is not in the Bible)
Then He brings His wrath against the whole unsaved world which are now on their own, left behind. He destroys this earth , before starting the new one.

 

[Biblereader]

Now, what we need to DO, is, spread this truth around, so weak and timid Christians will be prepared, and not fall away.
Will you help spread the word about this?
Just copy and paste, into other Christian forums.

tribulation is for the good of the saints and God. judgement comes first to the church. Then the wrath comes after in the vials on the world soley everyone needs to first be seperated either unto God or satan- needs to have the mark of God or the beast before we are seperated perminently for the wrath to come

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

i have to address something here that was copy and pasted a page ago here i dunno if it was from dakes but it was telling of the supposed truth of the rapture happening before the antichrist is revealed.

I have to say that something that was said there is one of the few false interpretations of scripture that literally makes me want to loose my lunch and cry and wail for Gods people .

The thing i am speaking of is the idea that the " falling away" IS the actual RAPTURE! This lie is teaching saints that the event that will DAMN many that were part of the body of Christ and cause them to loose their eternal soul is the blessed hope to be looked for ! How much worse can this get? I put this right up there with the idea that if you happen to be here you can take the mark of the beast and still be saved :mad

Lets LOOK at this for just a second.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Ok the word here for " FALLING AWAY" is this- Strong's G646 - apostasia 1) a falling away, defection, apostasy AV — to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1

It is a falling away, a DEFECTION an APOSTACY- also translated to say " TO FORSAKE". here is the other verse it is used in

Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs. (this is not talking about departing from one physical place to another but of forsaking moses.


So this word " apostasia is the femanine form and the SAME AS this word- Feminine of the same as ?????????? (G647)
Strong's G647 - apostasion 1) divorce, repudiation
2) a bill of divorce
AV — divorcement 2, writing of divorcement 1

Here is where that word is used.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.

So the word for " FALLING AWAY" is the femanine form of the SAME WORD meaning to DIVORCE.- So they are effectively calling the DIVORCE of people from God, the RAPTURE!

ok so this word is the neuter of an adjective of the same derivitive. that word is this-Strong's G868 - aphist?mi 1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove

a) to excite to revolt

2) to stand off, to stand aloof

a) to go away, to depart from anyone

b) to desert, withdraw from one

c) to fall away, become faithless

d) to shun, flee from

e) to cease to vex one

f) to withdraw one's self from, to fall away

g) to keep one's self from, absent one's self from
AV — depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1, depart from 1

It is the word used in these verses.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Act 5:37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, [even] as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

ok so lets see what that chapter would be saying IF it was saying that the " falling away" is the rapture

2Th 2:1 ¶ Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come],
(ok WHICH day shall not come? VS 1 and 2!- THE DAY OF CHRIST WHEN HE COMES AND WE ARE GATHERED UNTO HIM!)
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So in effect the people with this arguement are saying that this scripture is saying " let no man decieve you by any means for that day when we will be gathered to Christ, shall not come except there be a rapture first(isnt the rapture our gathereing into him? So the gathering unto him cant happen until the gathering unto him happens????? hmmm) and that man of sin be revealed.


Instead the bible tells us about what the falling away is and WHAT will reveal the son of perdition and WHAT is withholding them from being revealed. it shows it in the actual chapter but i wil use a diff verse anyways.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
-the ANTICHRISTS WENT OUT FROM US(I.E. fell away from us)but they were not of us BUT THEY WENT OUT THAT IT MAY BE MANIFESTED(REVEALED) THAT THEY WERE NOT OF US!


brethern please do not let your flesh desire so badly to resist persecution for the name of Christ that you are willing to believe that people divorcing God and falling away from Him and us is the blessed hope of the rapture.

 

[(THE)]

xtruth

The chapters of Matthew(24) and Mark (13) that deal w the days of the Tribulation do not speak of the Rapture... this is true; but Luke does reveal the Rapture in his account of Jesus' words on the subject of the Tribulation in Luke 21. In Lk. 21:34-36 we have the promise of Jesus that the saved will be accounted worthy to escape all these things, and to stand before the Son of Man. The things they will escape are those of Mt. 24:4-26; Lk. 21:4-19 and Rev. 6 -- Rev. 19. This is the first instance in the New Testament that the Rapture is spoken of. You had asked if the Rapture is before the revealing of the Antichrist... Paul says it is very plainly in 2 Thessalonians. I will copy and paste what has already been given to you....

Dude its like,,,,,this is the easiest doctrine to destroy.......I mean the same thing happens over and over,,,,,,people that believe in the rapture never get around to answering the questions presented,,,,and I ask really easy questions......I know you study ,,,so im kinda at aw,,,in how you even believe this nonsense..........But I once did,,,,gotta watch who you listen too,,,exspecially when your young.......

Anyhow lets try this again.......

Does the rapture take place before Revelation chp 9,,,,,,or after revelation chp 9.........You dont have to copy and paste either ,,,you can just tell me "before" or "after".....

 

[veteran]

i have to address something here that was copy and pasted a page ago here i dunno if it was from dakes but it was telling of the supposed truth of the rapture happening before the antichrist is revealed.

I have to say that something that was said there is one of the few false interpretations of scripture that literally makes me want to loose my lunch and cry and wail for Gods people .

The thing i am speaking of is the idea that the " falling away" IS the actual RAPTURE! This lie is teaching saints that the event that will DAMN many that were part of the body of Christ and cause them to loose their eternal soul is the blessed hope to be looked for ! How much worse can this get? I put this right up there with the idea that if you happen to be here you can take the mark of the beast and still be saved :mad

All sorts of false doctrines are being taught today to try and get the believer to accept the pre-trib rapture idea. Many accept such doctrines simply because of their listening to men's doctrines instead of reading God's Word for theirselves with understanding. Children tend to continue in the type of Church their parents raised them in also. Often it's not about what God's Word teaches, but what the Church system teaches. These are very dangerous times we're living in today. And there's a reason why God has made His Word so available today to be read by so many, and to many peoples in different languages. But even with that working, today many have over 12 years of public education but remain Biblically illiterate.

 

[XTruth]

i have to address something here that was copy and pasted a page ago here i dunno if it was from dakes but it was telling of the supposed truth of the rapture happening before the antichrist is revealed.

I have to say that something that was said there is one of the few false interpretations of scripture that literally makes me want to loose my lunch and cry and wail for Gods people .

The thing i am speaking of is the idea that the " falling away" IS the actual RAPTURE! This lie is teaching saints that the event that will DAMN many that were part of the body of Christ and cause them to loose their eternal soul is the blessed hope to be looked for ! How much worse can this get? I put this right up there with the idea that if you happen to be here you can take the mark of the beast and still be saved :mad

Lets LOOK at this for just a second.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Ok the word here for " FALLING AWAY" is this- Strong's G646 - apostasia 1) a falling away, defection, apostasy AV — to forsake + 575 1, falling away 1

It is a falling away, a DEFECTION an APOSTACY- also translated to say " TO FORSAKE". here is the other verse it is used in

Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs. (this is not talking about departing from one physical place to another but of forsaking moses.


So this word " apostasia is the femanine form and the SAME AS this word- Feminine of the same as ?????????? (G647)
Strong's G647 - apostasion 1) divorce, repudiation
2) a bill of divorce
AV — divorcement 2, writing of divorcement 1

Here is where that word is used.
Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.

So the word for " FALLING AWAY" is the femanine form of the SAME WORD meaning to DIVORCE.- So they are effectively calling the DIVORCE of people from God, the RAPTURE!

ok so this word is the neuter of an adjective of the same derivitive. that word is this-Strong's G868 - aphist?mi 1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove

a) to excite to revolt

2) to stand off, to stand aloof

a) to go away, to depart from anyone

b) to desert, withdraw from one

c) to fall away, become faithless

d) to shun, flee from

e) to cease to vex one

f) to withdraw one's self from, to fall away

g) to keep one's self from, absent one's self from
AV — depart 10, draw away 1, fall away 1, refrain 1, withdraw self 1, depart from 1

It is the word used in these verses.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Act 5:37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, [even] as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

No, it wasn't from me or the Dake Bible. Haven't actually read that on this thread either. The "falling away" is an apostacy and the Rapture does happen B4 the falling away and the revealling of the Antichrist. Those 2 events happen before the day of the Lord; however, the Rapture does happen before all 3 events. The Rapture and the day of the Lord are 2 separate events. The day of the Lord begins at the Second Advent and last the entire 1000 years. The Rapture happens 7 years before this. All that was already said in the previously spoken of post.

 

[XTruth]

xtruth

The chapters of Matthew(24) and Mark (13) that deal w the days of the Tribulation do not speak of the Rapture... this is true; but Luke does reveal the Rapture in his account of Jesus' words on the subject of the Tribulation in Luke 21. In Lk. 21:34-36 we have the promise of Jesus that the saved will be accounted worthy to escape all these things, and to stand before the Son of Man. The things they will escape are those of Mt. 24:4-26; Lk. 21:4-19 and Rev. 6 -- Rev. 19. This is the first instance in the New Testament that the Rapture is spoken of. You had asked if the Rapture is before the revealing of the Antichrist... Paul says it is very plainly in 2 Thessalonians. I will copy and paste what has already been given to you....

Dude its like,,,,,this is the easiest doctrine to destroy.......I mean the same thing happens over and over,,,,,,people that believe in the rapture never get around to answering the questions presented,,,,and I ask really easy questions......I know you study ,,,so im kinda at aw,,,in how you even believe this nonsense..........But I once did,,,,gotta watch who you listen too,,,exspecially when your young.......

Anyhow lets try this again.......

Does the rapture take place before Revelation chp 9,,,,,,or after revelation chp 9.........You dont have to copy and paste either ,,,you can just tell me "before" or "after".....

Once more... I answer you and haven't dodged a thing. You asked me first if the Rapture happens before the Antichrist comes on scene... I said yes. Now a new question you ask thats been answered... The Rapture is before Revelation 9...even before that. The Tribulation is the period between Rev.4:1 through Rev.22:6

 

[(THE)]

xtruth

The chapters of Matthew(24) and Mark (13) that deal w the days of the Tribulation do not speak of the Rapture... this is true; but Luke does reveal the Rapture in his account of Jesus' words on the subject of the Tribulation in Luke 21. In Lk. 21:34-36 we have the promise of Jesus that the saved will be accounted worthy to escape all these things, and to stand before the Son of Man. The things they will escape are those of Mt. 24:4-26; Lk. 21:4-19 and Rev. 6 -- Rev. 19. This is the first instance in the New Testament that the Rapture is spoken of. You had asked if the Rapture is before the revealing of the Antichrist... Paul says it is very plainly in 2 Thessalonians. I will copy and paste what has already been given to you....

Dude its like,,,,,this is the easiest doctrine to destroy.......I mean the same thing happens over and over,,,,,,people that believe in the rapture never get around to answering the questions presented,,,,and I ask really easy questions......I know you study ,,,so im kinda at aw,,,in how you even believe this nonsense..........But I once did,,,,gotta watch who you listen too,,,exspecially when your young.......

Anyhow lets try this again.......

Does the rapture take place before Revelation chp 9,,,,,,or after revelation chp 9.........You dont have to copy and paste either ,,,you can just tell me "before" or "after".....

Once more... I answer you and haven't dodged a thing. You asked me first if the Rapture happens before the Antichrist comes on scene... I said yes. Now a new question you ask thats been answered... The Rapture is before Revelation 9...even before that. The Tribulation is the period between Rev.4:1 through Rev.22:6

DO you understand that Revealtion 9 says that only the men without the seal of God can be hurt......DO you understand that there will be people that have the seal of God that cant be hurt......

Revelation 9:4
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

SO I guess you cant be counted as one who has the seal of GOd,,,, you wont even be here correct???????????