The Pre WRATH rapture of the church

[GodspromisesRyes]

No, it wasn't from me or the Dake Bible. Haven't actually read that on this thread either. The "falling away" is an apostacy and the Rapture does happen B4 the falling away and the revealling of the Antichrist. Those 2 events happen before the day of the Lord; however, the Rapture does happen before all 3 events. The Rapture and the day of the Lord are 2 separate events. The day of the Lord begins at the Second Advent and last the entire 1000 years. The Rapture happens 7 years before this. All that was already said in the previously spoken of post.

The problems here are that Paul and Jesus and Peter all say that the rapture happens at the day of the Lord.It appears from your post but i may be wrong, that you agree that the day of the Lord happens after the 7 years of trib. That is true but to say that the rapture happens 7 years before the day of the Lord cannot be and is shown directly otherwise. Also Paul shows in 2 thess 2 that the day of our being gathered to Christ shall not come UNTIL the falling away happens first and the son of perdition revealed.- We are shown in corinthians that the day of Christ is the day we are gathered to Christ and rewarded and changed into incorruption.

 

[XTruth]

The sealed in the first half of the Tribulation, specifically Rev.9:4, are the 144,000 sealed (Rev.7:1-8; 14:1-5). You may believe them to be all Christians at that time... no matter. Don't you understand that the Rapture is for those believers in Christ who are living according to the Spirit... the ones who actually live in obedience to God and the covenant made by the blood of Christ (Eph.5:27; Heb.10:26-31). There will be Christians after the Rapture... but they either weren't believers at the time of Rapture or weren't followers. The fact that many will be saved during the Tribulation is no proof against the catching away of the obedient now living on the earth and at the time of the Rapture.

 

[XTruth]

No, it wasn't from me or the Dake Bible. Haven't actually read that on this thread either. The "falling away" is an apostacy and the Rapture does happen B4 the falling away and the revealling of the Antichrist. Those 2 events happen before the day of the Lord; however, the Rapture does happen before all 3 events. The Rapture and the day of the Lord are 2 separate events. The day of the Lord begins at the Second Advent and last the entire 1000 years. The Rapture happens 7 years before this. All that was already said in the previously spoken of post.

The problems here are that Paul and Jesus and Peter all say that the rapture happens at the day of the Lord.It appears from your post but i may be wrong, that you agree that the day of the Lord happens after the 7 years of trib. That is true but to say that the rapture happens 7 years before the day of the Lord cannot be and is shown directly otherwise. Also Paul shows in 2 thess 2 that the day of our being gathered to Christ shall not come UNTIL the falling away happens first and the son of perdition revealed.- We are shown in corinthians that the day of Christ is the day we are gathered to Christ and rewarded and changed into incorruption.

I fail to see proof from you that the rapture cannot be 7 yrs prior... 2 Thes 2 says it is before the Trib as shown in previous posts in this thread.

Day of the Lord

By this term we mean the day that Christ literally comes to reign on earth with His raptured saints and angels (Zech. 14:1-9). It will be His day of rule on earth, not man's day. The day of the Lord is a day of punishment for the living wicked (Isa. 1:24-31; Isa 2:1-4; Isa 4:1-6; Isa 9:6-7; Isa 10:20-34; Isa 11:3- Isa 12:6); a day of destruction from the Almighty (Isa. 13:6-9; Joel 1:15); a day of God's wrath upon the enemies of Israel (Isa. 13:9-13;Isa 34:8); a day of darkness and gloominess (Joel 2:1-11,31;Joel 3:13-15; Amos 5:18-20; Zech. 14; 1 Thess. 5:3; 2 Thess. 1:7-10;2 Thess 2:7-10; Jude 14-15; Rev. 19; Mt. 24:29-31; 25:31-46); a day of trouble and distress (Zeph. 1:7-18); a dreadful day (Joel 2:31; Mal. 4:5-6; Acts 2:16-21); a day of sudden destruction of millions of wicked men on earth (1 Thess. 1:9; 2 Thess. 1:7-10;2 Thess 2:7-10; Jude 14-25; Rev. 19:11-21; Zech. 14; Joel 3; Ezek. 38-Ezek 39); and a day when all the enemies of God will be put down and death destroyed (1 Cor. 15:24-28).

The day of the Lord begins with the second advent of Christ (Zech. 14:1) and ends one thousand years later when the heavens and the earth will be renovated by fire (2 Peter 3:10-13; Heb. 1:10-12;Heb 12:26-28). Between these two points in time Christ will rule all nations with a rod of iron for the express purpose of ridding the earth of all rebellion (1 Cor. 15:24-28). This day of the Lord is the time that Paul said would come after the hinderer of lawlessness is removed from the earth, and after the reign of the Antichrist. In 2 Thess. 2:1-12 Paul made it clear that two things must precede the day of the Lord-a great falling away and the man of sin being revealed.

The term "the day of Christ" in 2 Thess. 2:2 should have been translated "the day of the Lord" as it is translated in 25 different versions. One version translates it "the day of Jehovah." This definitely associates "the day of the Lord" with the coming of the Lord to destroy Antichrist. Thus, the day of the Lord cannot take in the future tribulation and the reign of the Antichrist. It begins with the destruction of Antichrist at the second advent at least seven years after the rapture of the church. See Zech. 14:1-5.

At this point, man's rule of the earth will come to an end and the Millennium will begin. It will be the day that the Lord will begin His reign of one thousand years to put down all rebellion and all enemies under His feet (1 Cor. 15:24-28).

Paul expresses the idea of "the day of the Lord" this way:

—Dake's Topics

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

The sealed in the first half of the Tribulation, specifically Rev.9:4, are the 144,000 sealed (Rev.7:1-8; 14:1-5). You may believe them to be all Christians at that time... no matter. Don't you understand that the Rapture is for those believers in Christ who are living according to the Spirit... the ones who actually live in obedience to God and the covenant made by the blood of Christ (Eph.5:27; Heb.10:26-31). There will be Christians after the Rapture... but they either weren't believers at the time of Rapture or weren't followers. The fact that many will be saved during the Tribulation is no proof against the catching away of the obedient now living on the earth and at the time of the Rapture.

(replying to this and the next post you made)
The day of the Lord is the time of Gods wrath. it is wrath that we are not appointed to.
The Day of the Lord is also the time when we will be with the Lord. It is the time we wait for to be with Him. 1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.


1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.


1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,


2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


2Pe 3:14 ¶ Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


daughter woke up have to write more to you in the morning sorry God bless

 

[XTruth]

The sealed in the first half of the Tribulation, specifically Rev.9:4, are the 144,000 sealed (Rev.7:1-8; 14:1-5). You may believe them to be all Christians at that time... no matter. Don't you understand that the Rapture is for those believers in Christ who are living according to the Spirit... the ones who actually live in obedience to God and the covenant made by the blood of Christ (Eph.5:27; Heb.10:26-31). There will be Christians after the Rapture... but they either weren't believers at the time of Rapture or weren't followers. The fact that many will be saved during the Tribulation is no proof against the catching away of the obedient now living on the earth and at the time of the Rapture.

(replying to this and the next post you made)
The day of the Lord is the time of Gods wrath. it is wrath that we are not appointed to.
The Day of the Lord is also the time when we will be with the Lord. It is the time we wait for to be with Him. 1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.


1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.


1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
2Pe 3:10 ¶ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


2Pe 3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,


2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


2Pe 3:14 ¶ Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


daughter woke up have to write more to you in the morning sorry God bless

a [times and the seasons] This refers to the times and seasons when the rapture and the day of the Lord will take place.
1 Thes.5:1-3 is about the day of the Lord and how to know that day.
1 Thes.5:4-5 says that day shall not overtake Christians as a thief
1 Thes.5:6-8 tells Christians what they must do in view of the day of the Lord
1 Thes.5:9-11 says Christians will be Raptured before this day

2 Pt.3:10-14 is renovation by fire. Earth will be made perfect a third time: Its the end of the day of the Lord. (Rom.8:21; Heb.1:10-12; 12:26-29; Rev.20:11-21; Isa.66:22)
[which the heavens shall pass away] In the day of the Lord the renovation of the earth will take place -- not at the beginning of it, but at the end (2Pet. 3:7; Rev. 20:7-15).

The day of the Lord is the day that Christ literally comes to reign on earth with His raptured saints and angels (Zech. 14:1-9). It will be His day of rule on earth, not man's day. The day of the Lord is a day of punishment for the living wicked (Isa. 1:24-31; Isa 2:1-4; Isa 4:1-6; Isa 9:6-7; Isa 10:20-34; Isa 11:3- Isa 12:6); a day of destruction from the Almighty (Isa. 13:6-9; Joel 1:15); a day of God's wrath upon the enemies of Israel (Isa. 13:9-13;Isa 34:8); a day of darkness and gloominess (Joel 2:1-11,31;Joel 3:13-15; Amos 5:18-20; Zech. 14; 1 Thess. 5:3; 2 Thess. 1:7-10;2 Thess 2:7-10; Jude 14-15; Rev. 19; Mt. 24:29-31; 25:31-46); a day of trouble and distress (Zeph. 1:7-18); a dreadful day (Joel 2:31; Mal. 4:5-6; Acts 2:16-21); a day of sudden destruction of millions of wicked men on earth (1 Thess. 1:9; 2 Thess. 1:7-10;2 Thess 2:7-10; Jude 14-25; Rev. 19:11-21; Zech. 14; Joel 3; Ezek. 38-Ezek 39); and a day when all the enemies of God will be put down and death destroyed (1 Cor. 15:24-28).

The day of the Lord begins with the second advent of Christ (Zech. 14:1) and ends one thousand years later when the heavens and the earth will be renovated by fire (2 Peter 3:10-13; Heb. 1:10-12;Heb 12:26-28). Between these two points in time Christ will rule all nations with a rod of iron for the express purpose of ridding the earth of all rebellion (1 Cor. 15:24-28). This day of the Lord is the time that Paul said would come after the hinderer of lawlessness is removed from the earth, and after the reign of the Antichrist. In 2 Thess. 2:1-12 Paul made it clear that two things must precede the day of the Lord-a great falling away and the man of sin being revealed.

 

[veteran]

Propagandists know that if a lie is told often enough, a lot of people will believe it. And the idea that 2 Thess.2 is saying there's a 'rapture' prior to that "day of Christ" Paul speaks of there is a lie. And it's very easy to prove that's a lie.

II Th 2:1-5
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

The subject is the timing of Christ's coming on the 'day of The Lord' ("day of Christ") and our gathering unto Him (the rapture). Even in that one verse, Paul ties Christ's coming on the day of The Lord with the rapture of the saints.

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He then warns to not listen to the deceivers who were lying about that timing, including from letters AS FROM them, meaning the Apostles. Some deceivers were passing counterfeit letters among the Thessalonians, and saying it came from the Apostles. That points to deceivers trying to distort the timing of Christ's coming and His gathering of His saints early on in Church history.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Paul warns again, let no man deceive you, meaning about the timing of Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints. He then says that "day" ("day of Christ") will NOT come EXCEPT... there comes a falling away first. The "falling away" is the word 'apostasia' in the Greek, meaning apostasy. To be an apostate from Christ means being cut off. The words "first" and "except" are condition qualifiers, no matter what language it's translated in. And, that man of sin must be revealed, the son of perdition. That's another event that must happen first.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

What that man of sin is to work is another condition that goes along with the previous verse. All those things MUST be fulfilled BEFORE Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints. It is a definitive timing, no room for twisting, because the grammar used is precise and direct.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
(KJV)

Verse 5 is another pointer to some that were purposely trying to deceive them about the timing of Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints unto Him. For Paul had told them all this before. And now, with his second Epistle to the Thessalonians, he was having to tell them again, and be more specific.

Apostle Paul shows there 3 events MUST occur prior to Christ's coming and our gathering to Him:

1. "there come a falling away first"
2. "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"
3. "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God"

That Scripture is very clear, those 3 conditions MUST be met PRIOR to Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints to Him (what some call the 'rapture'). The only way to not understand that precise timing is either by listening to those same type of liars that were pushing fake letters saying it was from the Apostles, or by rumors, or by a lying spirit, or by not being able to read simple English, or simply by lying to one's self.

 

[XTruth]

Propagandists know that if a lie is told often enough, a lot of people will believe it. And the idea that 2 Thess.2 is saying there's a 'rapture' prior to that "day of Christ" Paul speaks of there is a lie. And it's very easy to prove that's a lie.

II Th 2:1-5
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

The subject is the timing of Christ's coming on the 'day of The Lord' ("day of Christ") and our gathering unto Him (the rapture). Even in that one verse, Paul ties Christ's coming on the day of The Lord with the rapture of the saints.

2 Thes.2:1-2 is an appeal to us in view of BOTH the Rapture and the Second Advent (2 separate events Paul is speaking of by the use of the word "AND" and in view of whats already been spoken of in 1 Thes).
2 Thes.2:3-5 tells us that 2 things must precede the day of the Lord (which is the time from the Second Advent all the way through the end of the Millennial Reign. The 2 things are the apostasy and the revelation of the Antichrist.
2 Thes.2:6-8 reveals that there is 1 thing that must take place even before the 2 things that must come before the day of the Lord.: the Rapture first, AND THEN the revelation of the Antichrist.

The 2 separate events of the Rapture and the Second Coming
Rapture: Rapture = Before the 7 Yr Trib. When He comes back FOR the saints (1 Cor.15:23, 51-54; Jn.14:1-3; Lk.21:34-36; 2 Cor.5:1-8; Eph.5:27; Phil.3:11, 20-21; 1 Thes.2:19; 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:9, 23; 2 Thes.2:1, 7; Col.3:4; Jas.5:7-8; 1 Jn.2:28; 3:2; 1 Pt.5:4; Rev.4:1).
Second Coming: His Coming = 7 yrs after Rapture when He comes to earth WITH the saints (Isa.63:1-6; Dan.2:44-45; 7:13-14, 18, 27; Joel 3; Zech.14:1-5, 9, 16-21; Mat.24:29-31; 25:31-46; 2 Thes.1:7-10; 2:8; Jude 14-15; Rev.1:7; 19:11-16; 20:1-3).

 

[XTruth]

Rapture and Second Coming

Greek: parousia (NT:3952), personal presence (note, Matthew 24:3). This refers to the rapture, not the second coming of Christ. It is the same as in 1 Thes. 3:13; 1 Thes. 4:13-17; 1 Thes. 5:8; 2 Thes. 2:7, note.

These two comings should not be confused. The scriptures that apply to one do not apply to the other. Not one passage refers to both events as if they were one. These two distinct comings are separated by several years, so they aren't two stages or phases of one coming.

The rapture is the first of the two comings, not a coming to earth but in the air. It could not be the second coming because Christ does not come to the earth to live here and fulfill a mission as He did at the first coming. When Christ meets the saints in the air He takes them back to heaven with Him and presents them before the Father's throne where they remain during the time the tribulation is running its course on the earth (1 Thes. 3:13; John 14:1-3). Christ does not remain in the air with the saints when they meet Him as in 1 Thes. 4:13-17. The marriage supper and the judgment of saints take place in heaven, then at the second coming after the tribulation Christ and the saints leave heaven together to come down to the earth (2 Cor. 5:10; Rev. 19). The rapture is the time Christ comes for the saints to take them to heaven.

The second coming is the time He comes to the earth to live here and fulfil a mission. This is the time He comes from heaven with the saints, having raptured them at least seven years before. The second coming cannot take place until all of Rev. 1:1-19:21 is fulfilled while the rapture can take place any moment without anything being fulfilled.

Scriptures on the Rapture-Christ's Coming FOR the Saints:

1. Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things ... and to stand before the Son of man (Luke 21:34).

2. In My Father's house are many mansions ... I go to prepare a place for you ... I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also (John 14:1-3).

3. We shall not all sleep (die physically), but we shall all be changed. In a moment ... at the last trump ... the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (the living) shall be changed ... put on immortality ... then ... death is swallowed up in victory (1 Cor. 15:51-56).

4. Christ loved the church ... that He might present it to Himself (Ephes. 5:25-27).

5. From whence (heaven) also we look for ... Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body (Phil. 3:11,20-21; 2 Cor. 5:1-9).

6. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven ... the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air (note on earth, to go back to heaven with Him; 1 Thes. 4:13-18; 1 Thes. 2:19; 1 Thes. 3:13; 1 Thes. 5:9,23).

7. We beseech you ... by our gathering together unto Him ... until he be taken out of the way (2 Thes. 2:1,7-8, notes).

8. When Christ ... shall appear, then shall ye also appear with Him in glory (Col. 3:4; 1 John 2:28; 1 John 3:2; 1 Peter 5:4).

9. Be patient ... unto the coming of the Lord... until He receive the early and latter rain (James 5:7-8).

Scriptures on the Second Coming-Christ's Coming WITH the Saints:

1. One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him. And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages shall serve Him (Daniel 2:44-45; Daniel 7:13-14; Daniel 18; Daniel 27).

2. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations ... His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which ... shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west ... the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee (Zech. 14:1-5,9,16-21).

3. Immediately after the tribulation ... then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (Matthew 24:29-31).

4. When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory. And before Him shall be gathered all nations (Matthew 25:31-46).

5. When the Lord shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God (2 Thes. 1:7-10; 2 Thes. 2:8).

6. The Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all ... that are ungodly (Jude 1:14-15).

7. He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him ... all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him ... the armies of heaven followed Him upon white horses (Rev. 1:7. See 1 Thes. 19:11-21; 1 Thes. 20:1-3; Isaiah 63:1-6; Joel 3).

—Dake's Topics

 

[XTruth]

20 CONTRASTS BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND ADVENT

1. The rapture is a going up to heaven of all saved men of all past ages (John. 14:1-3; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), whereas the second advent is a coming down from heaven to earth of the same people (Rev. 19:11-21; Jude 14-15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 16:27; Mt 24:29-31; Mt 25:31-46; Zech. 14:1-9).

2. The rapture is a coming of Christ from heaven to the clouds (not to the earth) for the saints-both dead (who will be resurrected) and alive-to take them to heaven (1 Thess. 4:16), while the second advent is a coming from heaven with the previously raptured saints to set up a kingdom and rule eternally (Zech. 14:1-9; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11-21; Rev 22:4-5; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 25:31-46; Isa. 9:6-7; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-15,18,22,27; Lk. 1:32-36).

3. Our goal in the rapture is heaven to live with Christ in our mansions (John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8), while the goal in the second advent is to leave heaven for the earth to reign forever (Zech. 14; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11 - Rev 20:10).

4. At the rapture Christ does not come to destroy the Antichrist or any other wicked man but to remove the hinderer of lawlessness (the church, Chapter 10, Proof 1), so that the Antichrist can come (2 Thess. 2:7-8), while at the second advent Christ comes back to the earth with all saints of all ages to destroy Antichrist and multitudes of wicked men (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 7:11; Jude 14-15; Rev. 19:11-21; see also Mt. 24:37-42;Mt 25:31-46; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14).

5. At the rapture Christ comes from heaven to the clouds only (not to the earth) to take the good from among the bad (John. 5:28-29; John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:16-18; Jas. 5:7-8), while at the second advent-years later-He comes to the earth with His raptured saints to take the bad from among the good (Mt. 13:30,39-43,49-50;Mt 24:29-31,37-42; Jude 14-15; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

6. At the rapture only those qualified for heaven will be raptured (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 20:4-6); only those who are born again will be changed from mortality to immortality and go to heaven. At the second advent, on the other hand, any and all men qualified to live on the earth as citizens will be permitted to continue as natural people into the next age, without any change from mortality to immortality (Mt. 25:31-46; Zech. 8:23;Zech 14:1-21; Isa. 2:2-4;Isa 66:19-21; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-14; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 2:27-28; Rev 11:15; Rev 20:4-6).

7. At the rapture there will be no battle of Armageddon (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16), while at the second advent Armageddon will be fought (Zech. 14; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Jude 14-15; Rev. 16:13-16; Rev 19:11-21; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39).

8. At the rapture there will be no change of home lands on earth among the nations (John. 14:1-3), while at the second advent there will be a general separation of nations back to their original home lands, including Israel (Isa. 11:11-12; Deut 32:8; Ezek. 37; Mt. 24:31; Acts 17:26).

9. At the rapture no man will be sent to hell, but all saints will be taken to heaven (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), while at the second advent millions of men will be sent to hell and none taken to heaven (Mt. 13:30,43-50;Mt 25:31-46; Isa. 14:9-15; Rev. 14:9-11; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10).

10. At the rapture all saints will "escape all these things that shall come to pass" during the tribulation, and will "stand before the Son of man" (Lk. 21:34-36; John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 4:16;1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; see Chapter 10), whereas at the second advent no man who is subject to punishment will escape (Rev. 19:1-21; Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

11. The rapture will take place before the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:7-8) and before the tribulation and fulfillment of Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:21, while the second advent will take place after these events (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:11-21). See Chapter 10.

12. At the rapture there will be a resurrection of all the righteous dead (1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21), while at the second advent there will be no resurrection of any righteous man, for the first resurrection will then be over (Rev. 20:4-6).

13. At the time of the rapture no man on earth will know who the Antichrist is (2 Thess. 2:7-8), whereas at the second advent all men on earth in the civilized parts will know who he is (Rev. 13:16-18).

14. At the rapture the church and all others who are redeemed saints at that time will be presented to God in heaven (Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 3:13;1 Thess 5:23), while at the second advent all raptured saints will be presented to men on earth as their new rulers (Rev. 2:27; Rev 5:10; Rev 20:4-6; Dan. 7:9-27).

15. Before the rapture there will be no marriage supper of the Lamb, whereas just before the second advent there will be such a supper of Christ with all the redeemed of all ages past (Rev. 19:1-21).

16. There will be a seven-year period of tribulation after the rapture (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21), whereas there will be no tribulation at all after the second advent, for the second coming of Christ ends all tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; Rev. 19-20).

17. There will be no end of the world (age) at the time of the rapture, while the age will definitely end at the time of the second advent of Christ to the earth (Mt. 24:1-3,29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 19:1 - Rev 20:10).

18. The rapture is an event that can take place any day without any prophecy being fulfilled or any sign coming to pass (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:21; Tit. 2:13; 1 Thess. 1:10), while the second advent cannot take place until all of the predictions in Mt. 24 - Mt. 25; Mk 13; Lk. 21:1-11,25-33; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; and Rev. 4:1 - Rev 19:10 have been fulfilled.

19. There will be no reign of the Antichrist before the rapture, but there will be such a reign before the second advent (Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21).

20. There will be no martyrdoms of saints after the second advent, while there will be multitudes of martyrs after the rapture and between the time of the rapture and the second advent (Rev. 6:9-11; Rev 7:9-17; Rev 13:7; Rev 14:9-13; Rev 15:1-4; Rev 17:6; Rev 18:24; Rev 20:4-6).



We conclude then, that if the church and all other raptured saints are to eat a marriage supper with Christ in heaven (as in Rev. 19:1-10), which happens just before the second advent begins (as in Rev. 19:11-21), then the church cannot remain on earth through the tribulation period. It must arrive in heaven prior to the time of the second advent. Furthermore, if the saints are to leave with Christ at the second advent they must already be up in heaven before that time so as to be able to return with Him. And since the rapture can take place at any moment (as taught in 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Phil. 3:21 and Tit. 2:13)-since it could have happened even in Paul's day according to these passages of Scripture-then we can be certain that the rapture will not take place at a specified time as in the case of the second advent which is predicted to happen at a particular time-that is, at the end of the tribulation period (Mt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21). This, to us, is truly conclusive proof that the rapture of the church and O.T. saints will take place before the tribulation begins.

—Dake's Topics

 

[veteran]

The timing and order of events Apostle Paul gave in 2 Thessalonians 2 stands as a direct Bible witness against any notions of a gathering of the saints to Christ prior to the great tribulation.

Apostle Paul even gave that order in 2 Thess.2 about Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints because there were some false prophets among the Thessalonians that were trying to twist the order of events. Now if some would rather listen to those false prophets that tried to change the order of Christ's coming and the gathering, then go to, and they might as well call Apostle Paul a liar in the process.

 

[XTruth]

The timing and order of events Apostle Paul gave in 2 Thessalonians 2 stands as a direct Bible witness against any notions of a gathering of the saints to Christ prior to the great tribulation.

Apostle Paul even gave that order in 2 Thess.2 about Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints because there were some false prophets among the Thessalonians that were trying to twist the order of events. Now if some would rather listen to those false prophets that tried to change the order of Christ's coming and the gathering, then go to, and they might as well call Apostle Paul a liar in the process.

Your words are true in the closing statement you gave... but kinda like David passing judgment against the man Samuel was speaking about when bringing a case before David. What Scriptures are against the Word of God and its interpretation of itself? I've given many...????

If I say that my wife will give me a present on my birthday and Christmas, does that mean that my birthday is on Christmas??? It might be, but it doesn't have to be. In view of the many verses dealing w the 2 events of the Rapture and the Second Advent throughout the Old and the New Testament, you can find your answer to 2 Thes.2:1-2 and find the timing of the Rapture AND the Second Advent. Use the many verses to find the truth, not this one.... I'll give more on the subject .....

Twelve Truths of 2 Thess. 2:1-12 That the Thessalonians Knew About

1. That it was possible to be deceived about the rapture and the second advent (2 Thess. 1:1-3).

2. That the day of the Lord, or the second advent, was not at hand and therefore, it was not the time for the Lord to be here reigning on earth (2 Thess. 2:3).

3. That they were not to permit themselves to be deceived (2 Thess. 2:3).

4. That the day of the Lord would begin only at the second advent (2 Thess. 2:3; Zech. 14:1-5).

5. That this day of the Lord, or the second advent, could not have already come because the great apostasy and the Revelation of the man of sin had not yet come (2 Thess. 2:3).

6. That the man of sin will take over the Jewish temple at Jerusalem and declare himself to be God (2 Thess. 2:4). See Rev. 13;Rev 14:9-11; Rev 15:1-4; Rev 20:4-6; Dan. 9:27; Mt. 24:15-22,29-31.

7. That the man of sin (the Wicked one or Antichrist) has a definite time to be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

8. That "he" who hinders lawlessness and holds back the man of sin will be entirely removed before he will fully come (2 Thess. 2:5-8).

9. That the mystery of lawlessness is already at work in the world (2 Thess. 2:7).

10. That Paul's doctrines had not changed regarding the rapture and the day of the Lord, as false teachers had reported, even forging a letter in his name (2 Thess. 2:2,5).

11. That the man of sin (Antichrist) would be destroyed by Christ at the second advent when the day of the Lord begins (2 Thess. 2:7-8). See Dan. 7:11; Rev. 19:20;Rev 20:10.

12. That Antichrist will come after the working of Satan with all power and great deceptions (2 Thess. 2:8-12). See Mt. 24:24; Rev. 13:1-18; Dan. 8:24-25; Dan 11:37-45.

Seven Other Facts About the Rapture in 1&2 Thessalonians

1. The church waits for Jesus to come from heaven (1 Thess. 1:10).

2. The church will be taken to glory (1 Thess. 2:12; cf. Col. 3:4).

3. Soul winners will have great joy at this coming (1 Thess. 2:19-20).

4. The saints will be established unblameable before God in heaven (1 Thess. 3:13).

5. Both the dead and living in Christ will be raptured to heaven to live with Christ (1 Thess. 4:13-18; cf. John. 14:1-3; Phil. 3:21).

6. God has appointed all saved men to escape His latter-day wrath on men (1 Thess. 5:1-11; cf. Lk. 21:34-36).

7. Saints will be made whole in body, soul, and spirit at the rapture (1 Thess. 5:23; cf. Phil. 3:21).

—Dake's Topics

 

[veteran]

The timing and order of events Apostle Paul gave in 2 Thessalonians 2 stands as a direct Bible witness against any notions of a gathering of the saints to Christ prior to the great tribulation.

Apostle Paul even gave that order in 2 Thess.2 about Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints because there were some false prophets among the Thessalonians that were trying to twist the order of events. Now if some would rather listen to those false prophets that tried to change the order of Christ's coming and the gathering, then go to, and they might as well call Apostle Paul a liar in the process.

Your words are true in the closing statement you gave... but kinda like David passing judgment against the man Samuel was speaking about when bringing a case before David. What Scriptures are against the Word of God and its interpretation of itself? I've given many...????

Simple is simple, and so is Paul's Message in 2 Thessalonians 2 of the timing, and order of events of Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints. One has to simply... decide whether they are going to heed what Apostle Paul said there, or listen to the traditions of men. What Paul said there pointing to "letters as from us" reveals there's been an aim by the "crept in unawares" early on trying to twist the timing and order of Christ's coming and the gathering of the saints. The pre-trib "secret rapture" theory which began to be taught in some Churches in 1800's Britain is only a continuation of that attempt at twisting. The big difference with that false tradition today is, now they're making Hollywood movies about it and selling books that some Churches use in their Sunday School class instead of using The Bible like their supposed to!

 

[XTruth]

What ever you wanna believe veteren... ad well as whatever you wanna ignore, which would be every verse throughout both testaments I gave you. Have a nice day.

 

[(THE)]

What ever you wanna believe veteren... ad well as whatever you wanna ignore, which would be every verse throughout both testaments I gave you. Have a nice day.

It doesnt matter what I believe what you believe or what Vet believes......what only matters is the truth....

Veteran isnt igoning anything anything,,,,it is you that are posting scripture after scripture claiming it speaks of a rapture,,,,your not following subject and object at all.......For instance....

Your turning 1 thess chp 4 into a rapture doctrine......Thats bull,,,,,1 thess chp 4 is about "Where the dead are" not about some bull rapture,,,,but since your not following subject then

Also scripture show "christians" very strong chirstians (elect) being here,,,, facing antichrist satan.....

Now if you wanna hi-tail it outta here ,,,then fine......But please dont try to push that non-sense on christians who have a destiny to be witnesses against the antichrist.....You say the rapture take place in Revelation 4:1 ????????? Lets see...chp by chp in the Greek,,,an I bet it says no such thing.........

 

[interpreter]

A rapture is never mentiuoned by Jesus, either in the Gospels or in the Revelation, given to us directly by Jesus. As in the days of Noah and Lot, the bad guys will be taken away and the good guys left. I pray that I am one of those "left behind."

 

[(THE)]

A rapture is never mentiuoned by Jesus, either in the Gospels or in the Revelation, given to us directly by Jesus. As in the days of Noah and Lot, the bad guys will be taken away and the good guys left. I pray that I am one of those "left behind."

Indeed,,,,Christ Said he is a master gone away on a long trip,,,,and when He returns you better working.....Kinda like when the teacher goes out the class room and comes back to find some kids in there seat and some up playing around.........the sharper level of this....

Is Christ said he is the husband,,,and when He returns He better not find his bride has been sleeping around and became a whore.........SO who is the faithful servent????????

 

[JudaicChristian]

The word "rapture" is not scriptural. Of the Elect, the dead or dieing are taken to heaven in the first resurrection. The Elect left behind inherit the earth for the thousand year reign.

 

[(THE)]

The word "rapture" is not scriptural. Of the Elect, the dead or dieing are taken to heaven in the first resurrection. The Elect left behind inherit the earth for the thousand year reign.

Of the Elect, the dead or dieing are taken to heaven in the first resurrection.

Do you understand that the first ressurection is Christ returning to earth ,,,then He will gather the elect and all will be changed into spritual bodys........SO why would the elects be taken to heaven????? Christ is returning to earth.......

When Christ returns he will find some that had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The beast is on earth,,not in heaven,,,,,no-ones being taken to heaven,,,Christ is returning and that is the first ressurection (THE changing)........

 

[JudaicChristian]

The word "rapture" is not scriptural. Of the Elect, the dead or dieing are taken to heaven in the first resurrection. The Elect left behind inherit the earth for the thousand year reign.

Of the Elect, the dead or dieing are taken to heaven in the first resurrection.

Do you understand that the first resurrection is Christ returning to earth ,,,then He will gather the elect and all will be changed into spiritual bodies........SO why would the elects be taken to heaven????? Christ is returning to earth.......

When Christ returns he will find some that had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The beast is on earth,,not in heaven,,,,,no-ones being taken to heaven,,,Christ is returning and that is the first resurrection (THE changing)........

The second resurrection is for the separation of the sheep and goats. That is during his second coming.

 

[(THE)]

The word "rapture" is not scriptural. Of the Elect, the dead or dieing are taken to heaven in the first resurrection. The Elect left behind inherit the earth for the thousand year reign.

Of the Elect, the dead or dieing are taken to heaven in the first resurrection.

Do you understand that the first resurrection is Christ returning to earth ,,,then He will gather the elect and all will be changed into spiritual bodies........SO why would the elects be taken to heaven????? Christ is returning to earth.......

When Christ returns he will find some that had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The beast is on earth,,not in heaven,,,,,no-ones being taken to heaven,,,Christ is returning and that is the first resurrection (THE changing)........

The second resurrection is for the separation of the sheep and goats. That is during his second coming.

NO its not,,,,and just because you see "second" resurrection,,,,and "second" advent doesnt mean they happen at the same time,,,,please tell me your sharper then that.....

I have already posted scripture that says your wrong........

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

At this point,,, Christ is on the earth ,,,the elects are reigning with Christ,,,and the second ressurection hasnt even happen yet.....No-where in the whole bible does it say the second ressurection happen at the second advent......I think maybe you sould most scripture