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The Primacy of Peter

Mungo said:
jaybo,
I believe the Bible 100%. But I don't believe many of your personal interpretation of it.
It seems to me that you avoid many of my posts that demonstrate the truth from the Bible because they contradict your erroneous beliefs.
As I have said before - no Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts Scripture (properly interpreted).

I'm going to leave it here.
I've given you the truth in many posts.
If you don't want to follow them that is your choice.
And the consequences are your responsibility.
I have done my part.
Click to expand...
Snap!
 
Mungo said:
jaybo,
I believe the Bible 100%. But I don't believe many of your personal interpretation of it.
It seems to me that you avoid many of my posts that demonstrate the truth from the Bible because they contradict your erroneous beliefs.
As I have said before - no Catholic doctrine (properly understood) contradicts Scripture (properly interpreted).

I'm going to leave it here.
I've given you the truth in many posts.
If you don't want to follow them that is your choice.
And the consequences are your responsibility.
I have done my part.
Click to expand...
Saying...

I'm going to leave it here.
I've given you the truth in many posts.
If you don't want to follow them that is your choice.
And the consequences are your responsibility.
I have done my part.

... is simply your opinion of yourself and what you believe to be the truth.

As is obvious, I disagree with you. You haven't given me the truth in many posts. You have given me nothing but Catholic doctrine, which I don't consider to be the truth. The consequences of not believing the Bible, but believing Catholic teachings are your responsibility.

Bye!
 
jaybo said:
You left out that Jesus called Peter "Satan". "But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.” Matthew 16:23

Also, Paul reprimanded him for his hypocrisy in Antioch. "But when Cephas [Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he had clearly done wrong. Until certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also joined with him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray with them by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas [Peter] in front of them all, “If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?” Galatians 2:11-14
Click to expand...
That's is why i want the thread starter to include all the scenario written.
 
jaybo said:
That's just your opinion. I disagree. How many people did Jesus call "Satan"? How many people did Jesus rebuke for drawing his sword? How many people were cited as hypocrites by Paul?

Not to many of us have been called "Satan", have been reprimanded for our violent behavior, and have been cited for our hypocritical behavior as church leaders?

I was a church elder until I retired a few years ago. Nobody called me "Satan" or even implied it, I have never harmed anyone with a weapon, or was accused of behaving hypocritically. I have my faults as we all do, but Peter was deeply flawed.
Click to expand...
Oh for goodness sake Jaybo.
Jesus wasn't calling Peter satan, but it was satan that was influencing him. At that moment Jesus was addressing satan.
 
Mungo said:
Jesus Christ left no written legacy, no theology book, no catechism. Instead he founded a Church and he entrusted his teaching to twelve men who he had selected, were his constant companions during his years of ministry, and whom he specially trained to carry on his mission. One of these, Peter, was appointed leader, and was recognised as such by others.

Jesus and Peter
1. Jesus had an inner circle of three special disciples, Peter, James and John. These were the only ones whom he took up mount Tabor for the Transfiguration and to his place of prayer into the Garden of Gethsemane.

2. Right at the beginning of Jesus ministry he singled out Peter and gave him special status by changing his name. This was a significant act and did not happen to any other apostle.
He [Andrew] brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Kephas” (which is translated Peter). (Jn 1:42)

3. Jesus gave Peter a special commission:
In Matthew 16:19 he uniquely gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,…

4. And he then continued, giving him (singly) the power of binding and loosing
…..and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

He later gives all the apostles the power of binding and loosing
Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Mt 18:18)
This is in the same gospel so it is clearly two separate incidents.
In one he uniquely gives Peter authority to act in his stead, represented by the keys and singly gives him the power to bind and loose.
He then gives he apostles collectively the power to bind and loose.
So the apostles can act collectively to bind and loose, or Peter can act alone to bind and loose. It is quite clear.

5. To support his brothers
“Simon, Simon, listen! Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your own faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” (Lk 22:31-32)

6. To be universal shepherd
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep” (Jn 21:15-17)

The Father and Peter
7. When Jesus asked the apostles who they said he was, it was Peter who responded:
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.” (Mt 16:16-17)
The Father could have chosen any of the twelve apostles to give this revelation, but he chose Peter.

8. It was Peter that God addressed in a vision to tell him to go to the gentiles (Acts 10). By his giving the vision and instruction to Peter to go to the gentiles, he was indicating that Peter had the right to act alone.

Peter’s Leadership
9. On many occasions it was Peter who acted as spokesman for the apostles.
But Peter said to him, “Explain this parable to us.” (Mt 15:15)
Then Peter came and said to him (Mt 18:21)
Then Peter said in reply (Mt 19:27)
Then Peter remembered and said to him (Mk 11:21)
Then Jesus asked, “Who touched me?” When all denied it, Peter said … (Lk 8:45)
Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for everyone?” (Lk 12:41)
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom can we go?” (Jn 6:68)

10. And at the beginning of the Church it was Peter who led.
In those days Peter stood up among the believers (Acts 1;15)
But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them (Acts 2:14)
“Ananias,” Peter asked (Acts 5:3)
But Peter and the apostles answered (Acts 5:29)
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them. (Acts 15:7)

Note that in all these examples all the other apostles are with Peter. I have not included occasions where Peter is with just another one or two apostles, such as with the cripple (Acts 3) or before the Sanhedrin (Acts 4)

Others and Peter
11. It was to Peter that the collectors of the temple tax came.
When they reached Capernaum, the collectors of the temple tax came to Peter and said (Mt 17:24)

12. John defers to Peter at the empty tomb
The two [Peter and John] were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb.

13. In the New Testament when two or more people are mentioned they are listed in order of precedence or importance. I have not checked all instances, but this seems to be the norm.

For example James and John are listed in that order, presumable because James is the elder, or possibly because when it was written down James had been bishop of Jerusalem and a martyr. See also “James son of Zebedee and John the brother of James” (Mk 3;17) which shows that James took precedence. Out of 17 examples I have only found 2 where John is mentioned before James.

An interesting example of this is Barnabas and Paul. Barnabas was an early disciple who first appears in Acts 4 giving money to the apostles (Acts 4:36-37). He must have a valued disciple as he was given the name Barnabas which means son of encouragement. It was Barnabas who brought Paul to the apostles Jerusalem after his conversion when other disciples were afraid of him (Acts 9:26-27). And it was Barnabas who was sent to lead the Church at Antioch. Barnabas went and brought Paul from Damascus where he had been living quietly for (some say) about 10 years. From this point Luke always uses the order Barnabas and Paul, until their mission in Cyprus. It was there that Paul begins to show his anointing rebuking Elymas the magician and addressing the synagogue at Antioch in Psidia . Then the sequence varies between Barnabas and Paul, and Paul and Barnabas. By their return to Antioch it had settled to Paul and Barnabas.

When Peter is involved his name almost always comes first. For example Peter, James and John (10 instances), Peter and John (12 instances). There is only 1 instance where Peter is not given first and that is right at the beginning of Jesus ministry (Jn 1:44).

14. In the lists of apostles (Mt 10:2-4, Mk 3:16-19, Lk 6:14-16) it is Peter who is named first.
Click to expand...
Hi Mungo
This is a great post and if You put it together, you deserve kudos...:clap
 
rod1011 said:
That's is why i want the thread starter to include all the scenario written.
Click to expand...
Do You include ALL scenarios when posting supporting material or only what suits your point of view?

Other scenarios would take this thread off course.

It's fine as is.

Reply to the OP instead of complaining about it.
🙁🙁🙁
 
wondering said:
Oh for goodness sake Jaybo.
Jesus wasn't calling Peter satan, but it was satan that was influencing him. At that moment Jesus was addressing satan.
Click to expand...

Read your Bible! "But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

Said to Peter!!!
 
Mungo said:
Jesus Christ left no written legacy, no theology book, no catechism. Instead he founded a Church and he entrusted his teaching to twelve men who he had selected, were his constant companions during his years of ministry, and whom he specially trained to carry on his mission. One of these, Peter, was appointed leader, and was recognised as such by others.

Jesus and Peter
1. Jesus had an inner circle of three special disciples, Peter, James and John. These were the only ones whom he took up mount Tabor for the Transfiguration and to his place of prayer into the Garden of Gethsemane.

2. Right at the beginning of Jesus ministry he singled out Peter and gave him special status by changing his name. This was a significant act and did not happen to any other apostle.
He [Andrew] brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Kephas” (which is translated Peter). (Jn 1:42)

3. Jesus gave Peter a special commission:
In Matthew 16:19 he uniquely gives Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,…

4. And he then continued, giving him (singly) the power of binding and loosing
…..and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

He later gives all the apostles the power of binding and loosing
Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. (Mt 18:18)
This is in the same gospel so it is clearly two separate incidents.
In one he uniquely gives Peter authority to act in his stead, represented by the keys and singly gives him the power to bind and loose.
He then gives he apostles collectively the power to bind and loose.
So the apostles can act collectively to bind and loose, or Peter can act alone to bind and loose. It is quite clear.

5. To support his brothers
“Simon, Simon, listen! Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your own faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” (Lk 22:31-32)

6. To be universal shepherd
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep” (Jn 21:15-17)

The Father and Peter
7. When Jesus asked the apostles who they said he was, it was Peter who responded:
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.” (Mt 16:16-17)
The Father could have chosen any of the twelve apostles to give this revelation, but he chose Peter.

8. It was Peter that God addressed in a vision to tell him to go to the gentiles (Acts 10). By his giving the vision and instruction to Peter to go to the gentiles, he was indicating that Peter had the right to act alone.

Peter’s Leadership
9. On many occasions it was Peter who acted as spokesman for the apostles.
But Peter said to him, “Explain this parable to us.” (Mt 15:15)
Then Peter came and said to him (Mt 18:21)
Then Peter said in reply (Mt 19:27)
Then Peter remembered and said to him (Mk 11:21)
Then Jesus asked, “Who touched me?” When all denied it, Peter said … (Lk 8:45)
Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for everyone?” (Lk 12:41)
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom can we go?” (Jn 6:68)

10. And at the beginning of the Church it was Peter who led.
In those days Peter stood up among the believers (Acts 1;15)
But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them (Acts 2:14)
“Ananias,” Peter asked (Acts 5:3)
But Peter and the apostles answered (Acts 5:29)
After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them. (Acts 15:7)

Note that in all these examples all the other apostles are with Peter. I have not included occasions where Peter is with just another one or two apostles, such as with the cripple (Acts 3) or before the Sanhedrin (Acts 4)

Others and Peter
11. It was to Peter that the collectors of the temple tax came.
When they reached Capernaum, the collectors of the temple tax came to Peter and said (Mt 17:24)

12. John defers to Peter at the empty tomb
The two [Peter and John] were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb.

13. In the New Testament when two or more people are mentioned they are listed in order of precedence or importance. I have not checked all instances, but this seems to be the norm.

For example James and John are listed in that order, presumable because James is the elder, or possibly because when it was written down James had been bishop of Jerusalem and a martyr. See also “James son of Zebedee and John the brother of James” (Mk 3;17) which shows that James took precedence. Out of 17 examples I have only found 2 where John is mentioned before James.

An interesting example of this is Barnabas and Paul. Barnabas was an early disciple who first appears in Acts 4 giving money to the apostles (Acts 4:36-37). He must have a valued disciple as he was given the name Barnabas which means son of encouragement. It was Barnabas who brought Paul to the apostles Jerusalem after his conversion when other disciples were afraid of him (Acts 9:26-27). And it was Barnabas who was sent to lead the Church at Antioch. Barnabas went and brought Paul from Damascus where he had been living quietly for (some say) about 10 years. From this point Luke always uses the order Barnabas and Paul, until their mission in Cyprus. It was there that Paul begins to show his anointing rebuking Elymas the magician and addressing the synagogue at Antioch in Psidia . Then the sequence varies between Barnabas and Paul, and Paul and Barnabas. By their return to Antioch it had settled to Paul and Barnabas.

When Peter is involved his name almost always comes first. For example Peter, James and John (10 instances), Peter and John (12 instances). There is only 1 instance where Peter is not given first and that is right at the beginning of Jesus ministry (Jn 1:44).

14. In the lists of apostles (Mt 10:2-4, Mk 3:16-19, Lk 6:14-16) it is Peter who is named first.
Click to expand...

Peter was a deeply flawed man.

a) Jesus called Peter "Satan". He never used that term to refer to anyone else.
b) Peter denied Jesus three times. Nobody else did that.
c) Peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of the high priest's slave.
d) Paul called out for his hypocrisy in Galatia.

He may have been one of the twelve disciples, but he had real personality problems.
 
jaybo said:
Peter was a deeply flawed man.

a) Jesus called Peter "Satan". He never used that term to refer to anyone else.
b) Peter denied Jesus three times. Nobody else did that.
c) Peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of the high priest's slave.
d) Paul called out for his hypocrisy in Galatia.

He may have been one of the twelve disciples, but he had real personality problems.
Click to expand...
Your personal opinions have been noted..
 
Mungo said:
Your personal opinions have been noted..
Click to expand...

My citations from the evidence given in Scripture are not my opinions. They are what the Bible clearly states.

Which of these is my personal opinion?

a) Jesus called Peter "Satan". He never used that term to refer to anyone else.
b) Peter denied Jesus three times. Nobody else did that.
c) Peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of the high priest's slave.
d) Paul called out for his hypocrisy in Galatia.
 
jaybo said:
My citations from the evidence given in Scripture are not my opinions. They are what the Bible clearly states.

Which of these is my personal opinion?

a) Jesus called Peter "Satan". He never used that term to refer to anyone else.
b) Peter denied Jesus three times. Nobody else did that.
c) Peter drew his sword and cut off the ear of the high priest's slave.
d) Paul called out for his hypocrisy in Galatia.
Click to expand...
The ones you left out:
jaybo said:
Peter was a deeply flawed man.
Click to expand...

jaybo said:
He may have been one of the twelve disciples, but he had real personality problems.
Click to expand...

And as I noted before:

Mungo said:
The OP clearly shows that that Peter was given leadership of all the other apostles - and others recognised that.
It's not about faults.
It's not about how much someone wrote.
It's about leadership.
You have made no attempt to address the points I made in the OP about Peter's leadership.
Click to expand...
Please keep to the topic.
 
jaybo said:
I am keeping to the topic: Peter. Are you now dictating the terms of the discussion?
Click to expand...

The topic is not Peter. It is the Primacy of Peter.
You have had your say on his character now if you wish to continue then address the topic.
 
Mungo said:
The topic is not Peter. It is the Primacy of Peter.
You have had your say on his character now if you wish to continue then address the topic.
Click to expand...
Your myths about Peter are not Scriptural! Here is what is written in the Epistle to the Galatians about Peter's (nonexistent) primacy...

"But from those who were influential (whatever they were makes no difference to me; God shows no favoritism between people)—those influential leaders added nothing to my message On the contrary, when they saw that I was entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised just as Peter was entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who empowered Peter for his apostleship to the circumcised also empowered me for my apostleship to the Gentiles)" Galatians 2:6-8

You believe whatever you want about Peter, even if it doesn't agree with Scripture. You just make up one false claim after another; there is no reasoning with you.

The New Testament is about the primacy of Jesus Christ and the carrying on of His work by his chosen apostles, as well as teaching the truth about salvation and eternal life. Instead, you and other Catholics depart from the main message of the Gospel of God into other irrelevant topics such as "ever-virgin" Mary and the primacy of Peter.

You have departed from the content of God's clear message to humanity!!! You claim to be the one true church, but you're anything but!!!

I'm done discussing your false doctrines. MAT GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOULS!!!
 
jaybo said:
Your myths about Peter are not Scriptural! Here is what is written in the Epistle to the Galatians about Peter's (nonexistent) primacy...

"But from those who were influential (whatever they were makes no difference to me; God shows no favoritism between people)—those influential leaders added nothing to my message On the contrary, when they saw that I was entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised just as Peter was entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who empowered Peter for his apostleship to the circumcised also empowered me for my apostleship to the Gentiles)" Galatians 2:6-8

You believe whatever you want about Peter, even if it doesn't agree with Scripture. You just make up one false claim after another; there is no reasoning with you.

The New Testament is about the primacy of Jesus Christ and the carrying on of His work by his chosen apostles, as well as teaching the truth about salvation and eternal life. Instead, you and other Catholics depart from the main message of the Gospel of God into other irrelevant topics such as "ever-virgin" Mary and the primacy of Peter.

You have departed from the content of God's clear message to humanity!!! You claim to be the one true church, but you're anything but!!!

I'm done discussing your false doctrines. MAT GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOULS!!!
Click to expand...
Again, no attempt to address the OP.
Goodbye.
 
jaybo said:
Read your Bible! "But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but on man’s.”

Said to Peter!!!
Click to expand...
I'm not debating this Jaybo.
If you think Jesus was calling Peter satan, when Peter was the head of the early church and Jesus gave him the keys to the Kingdom, and right after this happened,
then so be it.

Jesus was addressing satan: Get thee behind me satan. Very clear.
Then He told Peter he was a stumbling block...IOW get our of the way of Jesus.
Which Peter learned to do.

Some things should just not be debated.
 
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