Throughout the Bible we are taught that spiritual death is more significant than physical death.
So, if the Jews spiritually destroyed the city, then they are the 'people' irrespective of whether the Romans were justified or not.
The Prince that shall come?
- Thread starter Cyberseeker
- Start date
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
So, if the Jews spiritually destroyed the city, then they are the 'people' irrespective of whether the Romans were justified or not.
Sint Here we agree
my question was as base as it could be?
Sint, speaking of nationalities what makes a Jew a Jew.. let me try to be more clear... It one Jew because of his mothers blood, line his fathers, both? I am American cause I was born here... most of my ancestors are French or German That basic
Daniel 9:25 "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again and the wall, even in troublous times."
There are four times in history that the starting time of this seventy week period of prophecy could have started. This is what has made this starting date so controversial. During the time of Jewish captivity, four different commandments were issued, for the return to Jerusalem. These were:
First, was the command of Cyrus to return to rebuild the temple as seen in II Chronicles 36:22-23 and Ezra 1. the date of this command was given in 539 B.C.
Second, was the command by Darius to advance the construction of the temple, as we see in Ezra 6:1. This command was given in 518 B.C. or in 519 B.C.
Third, was the command of Artaxerxes to Ezra to purify the temple and reestablish the sacrifices and ordinances. This command is found in Ezra 4:17, and the command was given in 457 B.C.
Fourth, the command of Artaxerxes to Nehemiah to return to Jerusalem, to rebuild the city streets and walls, to make the city safe from the raids and plundering of the neighboring nations. We read of this in Nehemiah 2:1-9, and this puts this command in 444 B.C.
In Daniel 9:25 we read, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem..." The fourth command in 444 B.C. could be the only starting point for Daniel's seventy week prophecy. All three of the other commands were not relating to the city of Jerusalem, but to the building, finishing, and purification of the temple.
At the conclusion of the seventy weeks of years, Daniel saw in the vision that certain things would happen. Look ar Daniel 9:24, "... to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy and to anoint the most Holy."
We know that each of these things above still exist and will exist until the end of the tribulation period. That time of testing for all Israel, and destruction for the rest of the world.
It is an historical fact that the time to rebuild the streets and walls of Jerusalem was 49 years, exactly as Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:25. "...from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (Jesus Christ recognized as the Messiah), shall be seven weeks, three score and two weeks."
The first seven weeks, then sixty-two more weeks of years were given in the vision of Daniel for the time of the Messiah. This then leaves us one week shy of the total seventy weeks prophesied by Daniel, for the Messiah to come and physically rule over Israel.
444 B.C. Jerusalem Rebuilt Messiah Messiah
7 weeks 62 weeks Gap 1 week
49 years 434 years time of Millennium age
Gentiles
there are three separate periods, with a gap between the second period of of 434 years, and the final period of seven years. This gap in the seventy years of weeks prophecy period is what the Apostle Paul calls the time of the Gentiles. In Romans 11:17-24 Paul talked about the time when Gentiles, the wild olive branch, will be grafted onto the good olive tree, the trunk of Abraham. This grafting period, or the gap, is what we now call "the Church age". The time from the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the head of the Church, to the start of the last seven week period, then is the time of grace, and peace that is offered to all.
Grace is the gift of total forgiveness by God, by simply accepting by faith the price that Jesus Christ's death on the cross, and his resurrection, paid for. For this God offers "peace", and whatever sins were ever committed, are blotted out and covered by the blood of Christ. This is spelled out in John 3:16.
When we consider the time span from 444 B.C to 33 A.D., and deduct for the fact of the one year between 1 B.C. and 1 A.D., we have a total of 476 solar years. That is 173,855 total solar days. The Jewish calendar year has 360 days to the year, and would show 483 years for the same time frame. (360 days X 483 years equals 173,880 Jewish calendar days.)
To be accurate, the actual date of the commandment was March 5th of our calendar year of 444 B.C. When we compute the solar calendar days of 173,855 to the starting date, and add the 25 days excess from the Jewish calendar, we find the date to be March 3oth, 33 A.D., the time Jesus rode into Jerusalem with a multitude of people around him; "...cried saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest." Matthew 21:1-12 They were claiming Jesus to be the Messiah.
In Daniel 9:27 continues thousands of years later, following the period we call the gap, or Church age. This is the one week of years God set aside to draw His people, called the Jews, back to himself. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Halfway into the period, three and a half years, the Antichrist reveals his true colors, and Satan then turns on the Jews. He stops sacrifices and oblations, and brings the abomination to the temple. Then hatred, wrath and killing will be poured out on the nation of Israel. We will discuss each of these points later, as we look at various biblical passages in both the Old and New Testaments.
The thing that makes these four verses, Daniel 9:24-27 so important to Christians, and Bible prophecy, is that it identifies the time of the age of Christ's church on earth. The two important things to remember here is that the sacrifices and the oblation will cease, this is the communion, and the Passover feast offerings, and that is because the entire world, including Christians, will believe that Christ has returned to earth. They will believe that the Antichrist is the Messiah.
The second thins is that abomination that is to take place in Jerusalem, is when the Antichrist, Satan, shall stand in the temple and claim himself to be the true Christ.
Daniel 9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
The emperor of Rome took sides with the Syrians, against the Jews, and Titus Vespian moved his huge Roman army against all Judea, to totally destroy the city, and as Jesus prophesied, dismantled the entire temple. The Jews that escaped with their lives were scattered throughout the countries of the world.
Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
In the translation, "the desolate", it is a person, and should be translated "desolator". That desolator is the Antichrist. and is Satan himself. It is not a king in Europe, or the middle east, for Satan is the "star" that fell to the earth in Revelation 9:1, and he will be given the key, or the authority to the bottomless pit.
When the seventh trump sounds, the seventy weeks of years are over, and you will face the Lord Jesus Christ, either as a happy bride [the church], or in shame for chasing after the Antichrist.
There are four times in history that the starting time of this seventy week period of prophecy could have started. This is what has made this starting date so controversial. During the time of Jewish captivity, four different commandments were issued, for the return to Jerusalem. These were:
First, was the command of Cyrus to return to rebuild the temple as seen in II Chronicles 36:22-23 and Ezra 1. the date of this command was given in 539 B.C.
Second, was the command by Darius to advance the construction of the temple, as we see in Ezra 6:1. This command was given in 518 B.C. or in 519 B.C.
Third, was the command of Artaxerxes to Ezra to purify the temple and reestablish the sacrifices and ordinances. This command is found in Ezra 4:17, and the command was given in 457 B.C.
Fourth, the command of Artaxerxes to Nehemiah to return to Jerusalem, to rebuild the city streets and walls, to make the city safe from the raids and plundering of the neighboring nations. We read of this in Nehemiah 2:1-9, and this puts this command in 444 B.C.
In Daniel 9:25 we read, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem..." The fourth command in 444 B.C. could be the only starting point for Daniel's seventy week prophecy. All three of the other commands were not relating to the city of Jerusalem, but to the building, finishing, and purification of the temple.
At the conclusion of the seventy weeks of years, Daniel saw in the vision that certain things would happen. Look ar Daniel 9:24, "... to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy and to anoint the most Holy."
We know that each of these things above still exist and will exist until the end of the tribulation period. That time of testing for all Israel, and destruction for the rest of the world.
It is an historical fact that the time to rebuild the streets and walls of Jerusalem was 49 years, exactly as Daniel prophesied in Daniel 9:25. "...from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince (Jesus Christ recognized as the Messiah), shall be seven weeks, three score and two weeks."
The first seven weeks, then sixty-two more weeks of years were given in the vision of Daniel for the time of the Messiah. This then leaves us one week shy of the total seventy weeks prophesied by Daniel, for the Messiah to come and physically rule over Israel.
444 B.C. Jerusalem Rebuilt Messiah Messiah
7 weeks 62 weeks Gap 1 week
49 years 434 years time of Millennium age
Gentiles
there are three separate periods, with a gap between the second period of of 434 years, and the final period of seven years. This gap in the seventy years of weeks prophecy period is what the Apostle Paul calls the time of the Gentiles. In Romans 11:17-24 Paul talked about the time when Gentiles, the wild olive branch, will be grafted onto the good olive tree, the trunk of Abraham. This grafting period, or the gap, is what we now call "the Church age". The time from the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the head of the Church, to the start of the last seven week period, then is the time of grace, and peace that is offered to all.
Grace is the gift of total forgiveness by God, by simply accepting by faith the price that Jesus Christ's death on the cross, and his resurrection, paid for. For this God offers "peace", and whatever sins were ever committed, are blotted out and covered by the blood of Christ. This is spelled out in John 3:16.
When we consider the time span from 444 B.C to 33 A.D., and deduct for the fact of the one year between 1 B.C. and 1 A.D., we have a total of 476 solar years. That is 173,855 total solar days. The Jewish calendar year has 360 days to the year, and would show 483 years for the same time frame. (360 days X 483 years equals 173,880 Jewish calendar days.)
To be accurate, the actual date of the commandment was March 5th of our calendar year of 444 B.C. When we compute the solar calendar days of 173,855 to the starting date, and add the 25 days excess from the Jewish calendar, we find the date to be March 3oth, 33 A.D., the time Jesus rode into Jerusalem with a multitude of people around him; "...cried saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest." Matthew 21:1-12 They were claiming Jesus to be the Messiah.
In Daniel 9:27 continues thousands of years later, following the period we call the gap, or Church age. This is the one week of years God set aside to draw His people, called the Jews, back to himself. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
Halfway into the period, three and a half years, the Antichrist reveals his true colors, and Satan then turns on the Jews. He stops sacrifices and oblations, and brings the abomination to the temple. Then hatred, wrath and killing will be poured out on the nation of Israel. We will discuss each of these points later, as we look at various biblical passages in both the Old and New Testaments.
The thing that makes these four verses, Daniel 9:24-27 so important to Christians, and Bible prophecy, is that it identifies the time of the age of Christ's church on earth. The two important things to remember here is that the sacrifices and the oblation will cease, this is the communion, and the Passover feast offerings, and that is because the entire world, including Christians, will believe that Christ has returned to earth. They will believe that the Antichrist is the Messiah.
The second thins is that abomination that is to take place in Jerusalem, is when the Antichrist, Satan, shall stand in the temple and claim himself to be the true Christ.
Daniel 9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."
The emperor of Rome took sides with the Syrians, against the Jews, and Titus Vespian moved his huge Roman army against all Judea, to totally destroy the city, and as Jesus prophesied, dismantled the entire temple. The Jews that escaped with their lives were scattered throughout the countries of the world.
Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
In the translation, "the desolate", it is a person, and should be translated "desolator". That desolator is the Antichrist. and is Satan himself. It is not a king in Europe, or the middle east, for Satan is the "star" that fell to the earth in Revelation 9:1, and he will be given the key, or the authority to the bottomless pit.
When the seventh trump sounds, the seventy weeks of years are over, and you will face the Lord Jesus Christ, either as a happy bride [the church], or in shame for chasing after the Antichrist.
I don't claim 70 AD was the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27.
That was verse 26.
The distinction is clear. Messiah was cut off 33 AD.
Destruction of the city and sanctuary was 70AD.
The chronological order of events is unmistakable!
Are you suggesting verse 27 somehow reverts back in time?
JLB
I should have included a poll option for Jesus at his first coming.
Sorry about that. My only problem with the interpretation that Jesus is the prince whose "people" destroys the temple requires us to apply a non-literal interpretation here.Apart from that little quibble of mine your view is very similar to mine so Im not too unhappy about what you're saying.
I should have included a poll option for Jesus at his first coming.
Apart from that little quibble of mine your view is very similar to mine so Im not too unhappy about what you're saying.
Y
So what your saying is "the people" of Jesus destroys the city and sanctuary?
The city and sanctuary were literally and physically destroyed by the Romans.
JLB
To be desolate means that it is desolate of God's presence. Apparently God was still present just around 68AD...
Josephus
(A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).
This was the instruction to flee...
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Now there are some things to consider...
1) Who was this spoken to? The church migrated to Pella in 68AD at this revelation and was spared from the horror that followed.
2) The AoD had not been set up at this time.
3) This is the typical fulfillment of...
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
4) The exact fulfillment of this has yet to occur...
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
It is easy to prove that there have been times much worse than 70AD for Jewry. The Simon bar Kochba revolt led to greater slaughter and that did not compare to the pograms of Hitler and Stalin.
Another point here is that of Rev12...
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
At the time the Devil is cast out of heaven and comes down to the earth with great wrath, it will make the worst times this globe has seen look like a cake walk.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
The Devil has persecuted the church, but not to the extent that she is forced to flee into the desert for her very survival...
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Waters in this instance are type of armies...
Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I should have included a poll option for Jesus at his first coming.
Apart from that little quibble of mine your view is very similar to mine so Im not too unhappy about what you're saying.
Look at it from the perspective of another non literal interpretation with which most of us agree. When Eve and Adam ate of the forbidden fruit they died spiritually that same day, yet they lived on physically to the end of their generation. Satan said they would not die that day, and physically speaking he was correct. Yet Satan neglected to warn Eve of their impending spiritual deaths. Which type of death was most significant?
It says also in the New Testament: 'The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me'; words spoken by the Lord Jesus (John 14.30).
Yet who were those in the OT looking forward to?
Isa 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Hmmm, did that occur as He said the words? When did it occur? Could that have been prophetic of 70AD?
Mat 23:37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 - For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Mat 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 23:38 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 - For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Mat 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
If you believe Jesus is God, then God has left the building.
None of which has anything to do with the topic of this thread.
You are stuck in a 70 AD mindset.
It seems to be all you talk about or think about.
70 AD and the events thereof were OVER with as of verse 26 of Daniel 9.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Over and done with, as of verse 26.
We are discussing verse 27, which involves the prince who is to come as well as the associated temple activities that come with the rest of that verse.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
The prince who is to come confirms a covenant for 7 years!
He puts an end to sacrifice and offering.
The city and sanctuary were destroyed in verse 26, yet we see the scriptures reveal to us that there will certainly be another temple, as Paul write -
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
JLB
Just found this.
Here is a quote from the early historian, Eusebius. (AD 263 - 339) He identifies the 'other prince' as Titus and 'his people' as the Roman army.
Here is a quote from the early historian, Eusebius. (AD 263 - 339) He identifies the 'other prince' as Titus and 'his people' as the Roman army.
Irenaeus wrote in his treatise Against Heresies: Book V Chapter XXX Paragraph 4 -
But when this antichrist shall have devastated all things in the world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit at the temple in Jerusalem; and then The Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the Glory of The Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire.
Paul wrote -8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:2 Thessalonians 2:8
Was Titus destroyed by The Lord Jesus ? No.
JLB
Something to remember when we are studying. The Scriptures were not written in chapter and verse.........I am pleased we have them today. Chapter and verse assignments were added later.
Last edited by a moderator:
Err yes, I forgot about him. In Jerome commentary on Dan 9:24-27 he quotes other early theologians and invites the reader to take his pick.JLB said:
After reading them all I get the impression there was as much difference of opinion about it then as what there is now. lol