The Prodigal Son

[GodsGrace]

Anybody interested in discussing some of the questions/answers the author of the volume on parables StoveBolts recommended http://a.co/55aLQhT had concerning this parable?
wondering in this thread?

I don't know if I can get this book here.
I'll try.

However, I'm willing to discuss this parable if you bring forward the question.

 

[GodsGrace]

Anybody interested in discussing some of the questions/answers the author of the volume on parables StoveBolts recommended http://a.co/55aLQhT had concerning this parable?
wondering in this thread?

Oh. I think it could be read online.
??
I'll check it out when I get back.

 

[JLB]

This should be a thread.

Start it. I will contribute.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Oh. I think it could be read online.
??

You can read a sample of it but probably not the material he presented on this particular parable since that comes later than the intro and first chapter. However, my idea was for me quote his questions and then his answers (the book is formatted in this manner as a training aid) for this parable and then discuss whether you agree/disagree and why/why not.

 

[JLB]

Anybody interested in discussing some of the questions/answers the author of the volume on parables StoveBolts recommended http://a.co/55aLQhT had concerning this parable?
wondering in this thread?

Why not discuss the parables about the
Lost Sheep, Lost Coin, and prodigal son from the Bible.


Does someone who is lost need salvation?


It’s very simple.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You can read a sample of it but probably not the material he presented on this particular parable since that comes later than the intro and first chapter. However, my idea was for me quote his questions and then his answers (the book is formatted in this manner as a training aid) for this parable and then discuss whether you agree/disagree and why/why not.

Perfect!

(You have to sign up or something, but I had difficulty and had to stop.)

 

[Senior]

I don't think the father owed either one of them anything. Have I missed something?

Doesn't this parable have to be seen in its context?
Fathers back then always passed inheritance on to someone.
This father owed his inheritance to one or both of his sons.

 

[GodsGrace]

Doesn't this parable have to be seen in its context?
Fathers back then always passed inheritance on to someone.
This father owed his inheritance to one or both of his sons.

Both.
2/3 to the older
1/3 to the younger

 

[stovebolts]

Anybody interested in discussing some of the questions/answers the author of the volume on parables StoveBolts recommended http://a.co/55aLQhT had concerning this parable?
wondering in this thread?

If you haven't already noticed, most people miss the original intent of many parables. Many get a good idea, but those good ideas become the primary premise for many. Where it really gets ugly (and I fought this a lot when I taught Snodgrass in our Bible class) is when another good idea Spurs from the previous idea and becomes the primary premise.
Throw in some apologetics to win and argument and we are now 3 or 4 layers away from the primary intent of the parables.

Personally, I'd live to see you teach Snodgrass in our Classroom forum. ;-)

 

[chessman]

Open question to all:

Q1: What is the purpose of this parable?​

A1 (according to Snodgrass) the three purposes, all working together, are:​

1. To contrast the father’s attitude (compassion and celebration) with the elder son’s disdain for his father and for his sinning brother.​

​

2. A defense to the Pharisees of Jesus’ association with sinners.​

​

3. To serve as an illustration, an invitation even, to others (His hearers) to celebrate in God’s feast with the father.​

​

I agree with him on this answer.

 

[chessman]

Does someone who is lost need salvation?


It’s very simple.

Yes, someone who is lost needs salvation.

Which of the brothers in this parable received ‘salvation’, in your opinion, and why?

A. The younger brother.
B. The older brother.
C. Both brothers.
D. Neither brother.

 

[JLB]

Yes, someone who is lost needs salvation.

Which of the brothers in this parable received ‘salvation’, in your opinion, and why?

A. The younger brother.
B. The older brother.
C. Both brothers.
D. Neither brother.

The younger brother was restored back to his father (a state of salvation) from being dead spiritually or lost.

I still have two unanswered questions that I asked you, in which you never responded.


I’m willing to answer your question but at some point I expect you to answer mine.


The parable like the previous two deal with people represented by things (sheep and coins) becoming lost.


They were in a state of reconciliation, then they became lost.


In the first two cases someone had to go and search for the lost ones in order that they be “found”.

In the case of the prodigal son, he came to himself, and returned to his father in humility and was reconciled back to him.


Since the word salvation is not used, I will use the reconciled and separated.


The older brother, like the 99, remained reconciled and were called “justified” by Jesus.


The ones who were lost were defined as sinners by Jesus, until they were found.


In all the cases, the ones who became lost were called sinners (unsaved) until they returned and were reconciled or “found”.


Lost = Not reconciled; unsaved, sinner

Found = Reconciled; saved, justified.


As long as the prodigal son was lost, he was dead
(Spirituality)




JLB

 

[chessman]

I still have two unanswered questions that I asked you, in which you never responded.

You still haven’t fixed the assumptions built into your previous questions. Ask reasonable questions and you’ll get reasonable answers, just like you received then.

I’m willing to answer your question

Then do so. Is your answer A,B,C or D and why?

 

[JLB]

Yes, someone who is lost needs salvation.

Thank you for admitting the obvious.


Christians who wander away from Christ and become lost, must repent and be reconciled back to Him.


Here are the steps to take to get a brother to return.


What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:12-17

1. “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

2. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’


3. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Then do so. Is your answer A,B,C or D and why?

Asked and answered.


The younger brother was restored back to his father (a state of salvation) from being dead spiritually or lost.


I still have two unanswered questions that I asked you, in which you never responded.


I’m willing to answer your question but at some point I expect you to answer mine.


The parable like the previous two deal with people represented by things (sheep and coins) becoming lost.


They were in a state of reconciliation, then they became lost.


In the first two cases someone had to go and search for the lost ones in order that they be “found”.

In the case of the prodigal son, he came to himself, and returned to his father in humility and was reconciled back to him.


Since the word salvation is not used, I will use the reconciled and separated.


The older brother, like the 99, remained reconciled and were called “justified” by Jesus.


The ones who were lost were defined as sinners by Jesus, until they were found.


In all the cases, the ones who became lost were called sinners (unsaved) until they returned and were reconciled or “found”.


Lost = Not reconciled; unsaved, sinner

Found = Reconciled; saved, justified.


As long as the prodigal son was lost, he was dead
(Spirituality)




JLB

 

[chessman]

Asked and answered

Is your answer A or C?

I still have two unanswered questions that I asked you, in which you never responded

Your questions have unsubstantiated assumptions in them. Correct them and I’ll answer reasonable questions.

 

[JLB]

Your questions have unsubstantiated assumptions in them. Correct them and I’ll answer reasonable questions.

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

• Therefore do not be partakers with them.

The sons of disobedience will partake of God’s wrath because of “these things”.


Paul warns the Church not to be partakers with them, by doing “these things” that they do which why the wrath of God comes upon them.


So If Christians do “these things” the sons of disobedience do, will they partake of the wrath of God with them.

1. Yes
2. No

JLB

 

[chessman]

Paul warns the Church not to be partakers with them, by doing “these things” that they do which why the wrath of God comes upon them.

At least by this statement you’re now a little closer to what Paul actually said than you were before by claiming Paul is ‘warning’ the church not to be a partaker of God’s wrath. But again, Paul’s letter to the Ephesians still never even uses the word “warning”. I checked, it’s still not there.

It is abundantly obvious that Paul is telling them not to partake of sins (works of darkness) with them. Which is what I’ve said all along.

And do not be participating in the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even be exposing them.​

Ephesians 5:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 5:11&version=DLNT

What he’s provably NOT telling them to do is to not partake of God’s wrath along with them. Why??? Because God’s wrath is not a works of darkness, it’s a righteous work.

The sons of disobedience will partake of God’s wrath because of “these things”.

They (and it is them who are unrighteous, not the sons of God-those who have become the righteousness of Christ, His bride, the church) have God’s wrath falling upon them because of “these things” (sins).

So If Christians do “these things” the sons of disobedience do, will they partake of the wrath of God with them.

1. Yes
2. No

2. No. I (like Paul) believe Christians have redemption and forgiveness of our trespasses through His blood, not our fleshly walk. He’s caused redemption and forgiveness to abound to us Christians, not us.

... in Whom we have the redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He caused-to-abound to us, in all wisdom and understanding having made-known to us the mystery of His will according to His good-pleasure, which He purposed in Himself for a stewardship of the fullness of times, that He might sum-up all things in Christ— the things at the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him,​

Ephesians 1:7-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 1:7-10&version=DLNT

In other words, Christ saves sinners, not people who think they don’t sin:

The saying is trustworthy and worthy of full acceptance— that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am foremost.​

1 Timothy 1:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 1:15&version=DLNT

 

[JLB]

Paul is ‘warning’ the church not to be a partaker of God’s wrath.

Paul is absolutely warning us, not to be partakers of God’s wrath that is coming upon the sons of disobedience.


Paul plainly says the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, because of “these things”.


You yourself have admitted such.


What Paul also gives the Church at Ephesus, as well as all Christians, is this very clear warning.

• Therefore do not be partakers with them.

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Ephesians 5:5-7

• because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

The sons of disobedience will partake of God’s wrath, because of “these things”.


Paul’s warns them and us - do not be partakers with them.


What is it that Paul’s warn the Church, that the sons of disobedience will partake of?



JLB

 

[JLB]

2. No. I (like Paul) believe Christians have redemption and forgiveness of our trespasses through His blood, not our fleshly walk. He’s caused redemption and forgiveness to abound to us Christians, not us.

... in Whom we have the redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He caused-to-abound to us, in all wisdom and understanding having made-known to us the mystery of His will according to His good-pleasure, which He purposed in Himself for a stewardship of the fullness of times, that He might sum-up all things in Christ— the things at the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him,Ephesians 1:7-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 1:7-10&version=DLNT

At least we can all see that you are teaching th at born again Christians can live the sinful lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh, and still be saved.

• those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



Only if a person repents, and confesses their sins, are they forgiven and cleansed.


If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

The “if” means it’s conditional upon the person, confessing their sins.


He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 1:9



JLB