The Prodigal Son

[JLB]

Yes, but that’s not answering my question.

Of course it answers your question.

You asked and I answered Yes!

Then gave scripture for my answer, unlike you who just avoided my question.



JLB

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

correct

In what verse are you referring to this “lose of salvation” accuracy?

The arguments for this debate seem to have arrived by others before I could reply. I don't mean to take one stance or the other on salvation, because honestly it does worry me sometimes. However, here is how I've tried to move on.

My salvation, (everyone's salvation) is in God's hands more then our own. Verses that say that no one can come to God except through Jesus, paired with verses that. Say. That no one comes to Jesus unless God draws them to Him, as well as some verses (in the old Testiment Ibelieve) that basically say that God has left people to their sins. Abandoned them, and left them. To. Their sins because they abandoned God. With this in mind, my hope is in God and that is where I have to rest my trust.

Do you have a desire in your heart to repent of your sins???

Yes = you have received the Holy Spirit
No = you have not received the Holy Spirit

The truth? Perhaps the only answer is sometimes I wish to repent. The scary part is that if this is the guide, then I see little difference between myself and nonbelievers. Some things we regret and seek to correct. Other things we charished the moment of that sin. Whether it's anger, or lust, or anything else you know from study that it's a sin, some times the moment of the sin just feels so good and so right. Therefore though some moments I think and hope God might be directing me if I listen and turn away from a sin, there are many other moments that show I am a sinner. If the sign of having the Holy Spirit is the desire to repent, then that's not always there. I don't trust as much the deceptiveness of my heart. It sometimes feels guilty when there is nothing, other times guilty of everything, a heavy burden on you that day, and sometimes there is no guilt felt. A conflict between two people has grown to the size that your finally happy to let your anger out. With the only remorse if you think of it saying I shouldn't have done that, but no remorse from your heart.

Other signs people have offered to suggest you gave the Holy Spirit have me conflicted because either they are a sign that everyone has even if they aren't Christian, or they are something that I can only hope I have but isn't as tang able, or isn't always what I do. Even now as I write this, I think and feel a small thought encouraging me that I am ok, and have God's Love and the Holy Spirit in me. But then comes the doubt. Is that from God, or is that in me because that's what I want a o be true. I have to hope it's true because I don't know if I can have the Holy Spirit on my own. He's not something we earn, but is some one who God gives to us. Hope on God, because there's no real hope in ourselves kind of logic.

Evidence:

But I tell you the truth— it is better for you that I go away. For if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you. And having come, that One will convict the world concerning sin, and concerning righteousness, and concerning judgment—​

John 16:7-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 16:7-8&version=DLNT

Look at how the Holy Spirit effected Paul’s heart:

The saying is trustworthy and worthy of full acceptance— that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am foremost.​

1 Timothy 1:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 1:15&version=DLNT

Christ saves sinners. Paul was convinced he was foremost at it.

That is very encouraging, but even Paul wrote about a few Christians that left the church. Telling in one letter that they were never saved, as evidenced by the fact that they left. The hope is that God saves us, and sanctifies us. Continually cleans us from our sins, and being more like Him is a process of growing and maturing in Him. That hope though must have some responsibility laid on us to though, otherwise what can we say of the religous leaders in our communities that have fallen away. If it can happen to them, could it not happen to anyone of us?
_______
Here is my thought nowadays. If we need to obey God so that we remain with Him, so be it. Turn from our sins and turn to God out of fear of the consquences. If we are saved and never lose that, what differences is there. We should still show our love to God and our love to Jesus by obeying their comands. To to Him because we love Him. In either outlook turning from our sins should be an active part of our lives and commitment. Why shouldn't it also be true to try to encourage others in their faith, as well ashelp our brothers and sisters turn from their sins.

 

[chessman]

Of course it answers your question.

No, it doesn’t even mention their “choice” to participate in God’s wrath. His wrath remains on them (unbelievers) by God’s choice, not their choice. God’s wrath is, well, God’s to reveal. And He’s revealing it from Heaven “upon” the wicked not by their own choice but His. When God pours out His wrath, He doesn’t allow the wicked to choose to accept it or not.

unlike you who just avoided my question.

Pointing out the contradiction made within your assumptive question (BACs are not disbelievers) is not an avoidance of your question. Jesus did this often to people posing illogical questions to Him.

 

[JohnDB]

Can we talk about something other than a backhanded OSAS conversation?

There's so much other stuff to discuss that no one ever hears about because of this one subject...

How about the angry son? The one who wouldn't join the party? Can't we talk about him?

 

[chessman]

Perhaps the only answer is sometimes I wish to repent.

Then you have your answer.
It was God who granted you a desire to repent in the first place:

Acts 11:18 Lexham English Bible (LEB)

18 And when they heard these things, they became silent and praised God, saying, “Then God has granted the repentance leading to life to the Gentiles also!”​

It was the Holy Spirit's work to change your desire for wickedness into a washed and regenerated desirer to please God.

Titus 3:3-7 Lexham English Bible (LEB)

3 For we also were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, enslaved to various desires and pleasures, spending our lives in wickedness and envy, despicable, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love for mankind of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not by deeds of righteousness that we have done, but because of his mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we may become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.​

Someone without the Holy Spirit simply and unequivocally cannot please God nor do they even desire to:

Romans 8:6-8 Lexham English Bible (LEB)

6 For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mindset of the flesh is enmity toward God, for it is not subjected to the law of God, for it is not able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.​

I see little difference between myself and nonbelievers.

Really? I find that hard to believe. Anyway, salvation isn’t about your looks (to you or to me). Only God knows your mindset. To someone walking by at Jesus' crucifixion, He 'looked' like and was numbered with criminals.

If the sign of having the Holy Spirit is the desire to repent, then that's not always there.

I didn't say a desire to repent had to always be there. You sleep at times don't you??? Quenching the Holy Spirit does NOT equal loss of salvation. Never has, never will.
But the point of the test of a desire to repent is, unregenerate people simply and plainly have zero desire to repent, ever! They can't do it without the Holy Spirit's conviction.

Even now as I write this, I think and feel a small thought encouraging me that I am ok, and have God's Love and the Holy Spirit in me. But then comes the doubt. Is that from God, or is that in me because that's what I want a o be true.

Doubt is not a test for having received the Holy Spirit or not. God's mercy covers doubt within believers. You realize that you cannot "doubt" in something you don't believe in, right? Doubt is simply a level of uncertainty in something that you believe to be true.

 

[chessman]

But the one, having responded, said to his father, ‘Behold— I am slaving for you for so many years, and I never disregarded your command.

How about the angry son?

The one who wouldn't join the party?

The parable simply says he wasn’t initially willing to join the party with the Prodigal Son. The Father then went out and got the jealous-angry-hypocritical-resentful son. I believe He convincingly eventually persuaded him to join the party:

And the one said to him, ‘Child, you are always with me, and all my things are yours.​

Luke 15:31 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 15:31&version=DLNT

Can't we talk about him?

What do you think; “Child, you are always with me” Do you think the Father convinced the hypocritical son to join them (and honor his Father’s wishes), even though he was angry at both his younger brother and his Father?

But the one, having responded, said to his father, ‘Behold— I am slaving for you for so many years, and I never disregarded your command. And you never gave me a goat in order that I might celebrate with my friends.​

Luke 15:29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 15:29&version=DLNT

What do you think, had he actually disregarded his Father’s instruction to come to the party the first time he was instructed to come (and just didn’t realize his lie)? But was a loved son anyway, just like the Prodigal?

 

[Senior]

How about the angry son? The one who wouldn't join the party? Can't we talk about him?

I'm no expert on the Prodigal (lost) Son parable,
but does Luke 15 say that either son ended up eternally lost?
If not, why speculate?
I guess that's why I prefer non-fiction over fiction.

 

[JLB]

No, it doesn’t even mention their “choice” to participate in God’s wrath. His wrath remains on them (unbelievers) by God’s choice, not their choice. God’s wrath is, well, God’s to reveal. And He’s revealing it from Heaven “upon” the wicked not by their own choice but His. When God pours out His wrath, He doesn’t allow the wicked to choose to accept it or not.

All people have the choice to repent and believe the Gospel.


All believers have the choice to live according to the flesh or live according to the Spirit.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Pointing out the contradiction made within your assumptive question (BACs are not disbelievers) is not an avoidance of your question. Jesus did this often to people posing illogical questions to Him.

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

• Therefore do not be partakers with them.

What is it, Paul is teaching the Church not to partake of, along with the sons of disobedience?

1. God’s wrath?
2. God’s grace?
3. God’s correction?
4. Other?

JLB

 

[JLB]

Can we talk about something other than a backhanded OSAS conversation?

There's so much other stuff to discuss that no one ever hears about because of this one subject...

How about the angry son? The one who wouldn't join the party? Can't we talk about him?

Ok. I agree. It really shouldn’t even be a topic for discussion.


To me it’s like discussing “is there another way to God besides Jesus”.


Those who promote this doctrine, as you have plainly seen from the discussion, must deny, and twist what the scriptures so plainly say.


A simple verse of warning that’s plainly says -

• Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul plainly warning the Church, not to be partakers of God’s wrath, along with the sons of disobedience.


Yet, we have to go round and round, in an unhealthy dialog, because of those who promote unbiblical concepts.



Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7


I hope for the day this type deceitfulness will come to an end here on this Forum.


How about you John, would you be willing to answer the question I have asked Chessman?



What is it, Paul is teaching the Church not to partake of, along with the sons of disobedience?

1. God’s wrath?
2. God’s grace?
3. God’s correction?
4. Other?

JLB

 

[JLB]

Just for the record, The Church is in a crisis of immortality in the United States.


It stems from false teaching and heresy.

This issue should be addressed once and for all here on this Forum.


There is just no way a person can read the Bible and come to the conclusion that born again Christians can live in immortality and sin and think the will be saved on the day of Judgement.


Teaching God’s people this is unbiblical.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Here is my thought nowadays. If we need to obey God so that we remain with Him, so be it. Turn from our sins and turn to God out of fear of the consquences. If we are saved and never lose that, what differences is there. We should still show our love to God and our love to Jesus by obeying their comands. To to Him because we love Him. In either outlook turning from our sins should be an active part of our lives and commitment. Why shouldn't it also be true to try to encourage others in their faith, as well ashelp our brothers and sisters turn from their sins.

Amen.



JLB

 

[chessman]

I’ve already answered this question at least twice:.

What is it, Paul is teaching the Church not to partake of, along with the sons of disobedience?

1. God’s wrath?
2. God’s grace?
3. God’s correction?
4. Other?

Just what he said. But here it is again since you asked again. #4. Sins (immoral behavior, greed, LYING, foolish talk! Actions, verbs that people do, not God’s wrath which is a noun and comes down from Heaven upon the sons of disobedience, not on saints. Which comes upon the disobedient whether they choose it or not.

But let sexual-immorality and all impurity or greed not even be named among you, as is proper for saints— and filthiness and foolish-talk or coarse-joking, which are not fitting, but rather thanksgiving.​

Ephesians 5:3-4 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Ephesians 5:3-4&version=DLNT

Paul plainly warning the Church, not to be partakers of God’s wrath, along with the sons of disobedience.

Nope. Saints don’t partake of God’s wrath.

There is just no way a person can read the Bible and come to the conclusion that born again Christians can live in immortality and sin and think the will be saved on the day of Judgement.

The saying is trustworthy and worthy of full acceptance— that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am foremost.​

1 Timothy 1:15 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 1:15&version=DLNT

Is 1 Tim 1:15 in your Bible?

 

[ezra]

Just for the record, The Church is in a crisis of immortality in the United States.


It stems from false teaching and heresy.

what would be the heresy and false teaching

 

[JLB]

Just what he said. But here it is again since you asked again. #4. Sins (immoral behavior, greed, LYING, foolish talk! Actions, verbs that people do, not God’s wrath which is a noun and comes down from Heaven upon the sons of disobedience, not on saints. Which comes upon the disobedient whether they choose it or not.

That would be another non answer, in an attempt to explain away the truth of scripture.


Paul warns these folks not to be partakers of God’s wrath, (a noun) that come upon the sons of disobedience.


For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7


The “things” that Paul warned the Church, that will cause them to be partakers of God’s wrath, is described in verse 5

• For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

No inheritance, or will not inherit the kingdom of God, means cast into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil. This is the wrath of God.


Born Again Christians who are idolaters, or sorcerers, sexually immoral, liars, heretics, blasphemers, homosexuals and the like will indeed partake of God’s wrath along with the sons of disobedience.


This truth can not be explained away, by anyone.


again



Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

• I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

JLB

 

[JLB]

what would be the heresy and false teaching

OSAS is a false teaching, that leads people into a life of sin, thinking they can practice the works of the flesh and still be saved.

• If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing,

3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
1 Timothy 6:3-5




JLB

 

[JohnDB]

Ok. I agree. It really shouldn’t even be a topic for discussion.


To me it’s like discussing “is there another way to God besides Jesus”.


Those who promote this doctrine, as you have plainly seen from the discussion, must deny, and twist what the scriptures so plainly say.


A simple verse of warning that’s plainly says -

• Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul plainly warning the Church, not to be partakers of God’s wrath, along with the sons of disobedience.


Yet, we have to go round and round, in an unhealthy dialog, because of those who promote unbiblical concepts.



Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7


I hope for the day this type deceitfulness will come to an end here on this Forum.


How about you John, would you be willing to answer the question I have asked Chessman?



What is it, Paul is teaching the Church not to partake of, along with the sons of disobedience?

1. God’s wrath?
2. God’s grace?
3. God’s correction?
4. Other?

JLB

I choose "other"
Fruitless works of darkness...as he says a couple of verses later.
It takes two to argue. Partaker is another word for partner. I know that I don't want to be a partner with a "son of disobedience".

It's Greek...so the grammar works.
But it's essentially the same thing.

But I'm in the middle of a leather craft project. A case/clutch for my wife. It's about the size of a shaving kit. I screwed up the gold embossing for her name. (Too much heat) so now she will get a name plate attached to the case to cover the goof.

A much more worthwhile endeavor than discussing OSAS.
Wouldn't you agree?

 

[JLB]

I choose "other"
Fruitless works of darkness...as he says a couple of verses later.
It takes two to argue. Partaker is another word for partner. I know that I don't want to be a partner with a "son of disobedience".

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

• because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

John the verse plainly says the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience because of “these things”.


Then Paul says to them, the Church at Ephesus, do not be partakers (of God’s wrath) with them; the sons of disobedience.


The partaking refers to God’s wrath; Grammar means something.





JLB

 

[JLB]

A much more worthwhile endeavor than discussing OSAS.
Wouldn't you agree?

Absolutely not.


People’s salvation is worth much more than our hobbies.




JLB

 

[JohnDB]

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

• because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

John the verse plainly says the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience because of “these things”.


Then Paul says to them, the Church at Ephesus, do not be partakers (of God’s wrath) with them; the sons of disobedience.


The partaking refers to God’s wrath; Grammar means something.





JLB

It's Olde English...
Meaning that the definitions of the words have shifted slightly from the original.
A "partaker" is a "partner" in modern English.

Charity used to be the word for love... although today we think of charity as a function of love.

All that aside; we both know better than to do it eh?
And doing a hobby is much better than to share in the works of darkness.
I witness plenty...but not usually to the choir. (A much tougher crowd)