The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[Lehigh3]

However, most of Revelation is concerned with this figurative return which is clearly not at the end of time as we think of it today, but marked the end of Temple Judaism:

Mat 21:40 - When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 - They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.​

However, Christ never said He would return again in the flesh in scripture. The verses above are parables about the end of the Jewish age & the beginning of the gospel age & the Gentiles bearing fruits to God.
And, the church age or gospel age or new covenant age- never ends, once it came- Eph.3:20-21. Support with scripture otherwise -thanks.
There is no 3rd coming!

PPS- The Old covenant was the "age of the law" The New is the "age of grace" And that (this age- which was the age to come- post AD70) never ends. His kingdom has no end. (Dan.2; Isa.9, etc)

 

[Vic C.]

However, Christ never said He would return again in the flesh in scripture. The verses above are parables about the end of the Jewish age & the beginning of the gospel age & the Gentiles bearing fruits to God.
And, the church age or gospel age or new covenant age- never ends, once it came- Eph.3:20-21. Support with scripture otherwise -thanks.
There is no 3rd coming!

I read where preterists say this a lot. If we relied only on what Jesus said, we'd be missing out on a while lot of incomplete and inaccurate theology and doctrine. But we are told he left in the flesh and would return in the same way.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Who are these two dressed in white?

 

[Hitch]

We need a sticky for that modernistic dispensationalist nonsense

 

[Lehigh3]

I read where preterists say this a lot. If we relied only on what Jesus said, we'd be missing out on a while lot of incomplete and inaccurate theology and doctrine. But we are told he left in the flesh and would return in the same way.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Who are these two dressed in white?

Men are sometimes called "angels" in scripture & vice-versa.

The Lord was going to come in the same manner as He entered heaven. How did He enter heaven? Hidden from the eyes in a Cloud. He was going to "come in a like manner"
The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the cloud to be lowered back down & to be with them again in the flesh. But the 2 men corrected the apostles by telling them that Jesus was going to come, not in the manner He left- but in the manner He entered heaven.
The Coming of the Son with His Father to indwell the church was not going to be a coming in His flesh- but in His Divinity, in the Glory-Cloud of Yahweh God (1Tim 3:16)
The spiritual nature of Christ's Parousia is confirmed by the comparison of Matt.16:28 & Lk. 17:20-21. In Matt 16:28, Jesus taught that His coming was going to be "in His kingdom." In Lk.17:20-21, He taught that His kingdom was going to come "not with observation."
If the kingdom was going to come "not with observation, then it follows that the King of that Kingdom (2Cor.4:18) was also going to come "not with observation."

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Matt 16:28 is telling the reader that Jesus would come back as the reigning King, that is what coming "in his kingdom" means. As for it 'not coming with observation', it is hard to be dogmatic about what that specifies as the scriptures are not forthcoming with many details. It may simply mean that Jesus' reign as king would begin in Heaven after he ascended and that since no man but him had gone there, there would be no one observing him BEGINNING his reign. I say this in light of passages like Revelation 12:10 that indicates that there is a definite time for this Kingdom to start its rule it reads:
‘Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say, This is the moment when the salvation, the power, the Kingdom of our God, and the authorization of His Anointed begin. Because, the one who has been accusing our brothers has been thrown down… he who has been complaining about them day and night in front of our God!’

 

[taromina2003]

Men are sometimes called "angels" in scripture & vice-versa.

The Lord was going to come in the same manner as He entered heaven. How did He enter heaven? Hidden from the eyes in a Cloud. He was going to "come in a like manner"
The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the cloud to be lowered back down & to be with them again in the flesh. But the 2 men corrected the apostles by telling them that Jesus was going to come, not in the manner He left- but in the manner He entered heaven.
The Coming of the Son with His Father to indwell the church was not going to be a coming in His flesh- but in His Divinity, in the Glory-Cloud of Yahweh God (1Tim 3:16)
The spiritual nature of Christ's Parousia is confirmed by the comparison of Matt.16:28 & Lk. 17:20-21. In Matt 16:28, Jesus taught that His coming was going to be "in His kingdom." In Lk.17:20-21, He taught that His kingdom was going to come "not with observation."
If the kingdom was going to come "not with observation, then it follows that the King of that Kingdom (2Cor.4:18) was also going to come "not with observation."

from your quote:
Men are sometimes called "angels" in scripture & vice-versa. Please enlighten me on this, now I have heard of angles described as men but not the other way around, could you give me some scripture that describes this. :waving

 

[warhorse]

Men are sometimes called "angels" in scripture & vice-versa.

The Lord was going to come in the same manner as He entered heaven. How did He enter heaven? Hidden from the eyes in a Cloud. He was going to "come in a like manner"
The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the cloud to be lowered back down & to be with them again in the flesh. But the 2 men corrected the apostles by telling them that Jesus was going to come, not in the manner He left- but in the manner He entered heaven.
The Coming of the Son with His Father to indwell the church was not going to be a coming in His flesh- but in His Divinity, in the Glory-Cloud of Yahweh God (1Tim 3:16)
The spiritual nature of Christ's Parousia is confirmed by the comparison of Matt.16:28 & Lk. 17:20-21. In Matt 16:28, Jesus taught that His coming was going to be "in His kingdom." In Lk.17:20-21, He taught that His kingdom was going to come "not with observation."
If the kingdom was going to come "not with observation, then it follows that the King of that Kingdom (2Cor.4:18) was also going to come "not with observation."

Except for that ( all eyes shall see him part huh).

 

[Lehigh3]

Except for that ( all eyes shall see him part huh).

No, that would be tribes of the earth who aided & abetted His crucifixion.

Those were in the great tribulation - God's wrath.

None of the Hebrew Christians remained in the city. None of the Christians died bc they "fled to the mts" when they saw the Abomination of Desolation.

You should read The Jewish war by Josephus.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

from your quote:
Men are sometimes called "angels" in scripture & vice-versa. Please enlighten me on this, now I have heard of angles described as men but not the other way around, could you give me some scripture that describes this. :waving

The term "angel" is not indicative of a "heavenly species". Biblically the term carries the exact same meaning as the word messenger. So anyone that is a messenger is an angel. So just as Gabriel was a messenger of the LORD, so was Elijah, Jesus, and his sent ones.

 

[taromina2003]

The term "angel" is not indicative of a "heavenly species". Biblically the term carries the exact same meaning as the word messenger. So anyone that is a messenger is an angel. So just as Gabriel was a messenger of the LORD, so was Elijah, Jesus, and his sent ones.

Thank you for your response, I"ll stick with the former being heavenly messengers and the latter being prophets.:waving

 

[Lehigh3]

from your quote:
Men are sometimes called "angels" in scripture & vice-versa. Please enlighten me on this, now I have heard of angles described as men but not the other way around, could you give me some scripture that describes this. :waving

I do not have much time tonight. I don't want to change the topic either.
Perhaps this will help. I don't vouch for anything except what they say in this article: What do Angels Look Like?
Scripture says a great deal about the angels of God but we shall confine our remarks to the question asked above. "Angel" comes from the Greek term, angelos, and means a "messenger." These messengers are spirits (Heb. 1:14), thus they are immaterial. However, when they have appeared to human beings, they come in the form of men. For example, after the resurrection, angels appeared to the women at the empty tomb. Matthew refers to "an angel of the Lord" at the tomb (28:2-5) whereas John refers to "two angels in white" (20:12). However, Mark identifies the angel as "a young man" (16:5) and Luke refers to "two men" (Luke 24:4). The angels appeared as men—as males. When Jesus ascended into heaven, evidently two angels present were referred to as "two men in white clothing" (Acts 1:10-11). Cornelius had "a vision" of "an angel of God" but this angel was called "a man" (Acts 10:3, 30).
Even during the time before Christ, angels appeared as men. For instance, when Abraham was sitting by the oaks of Mamre, "he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him" (Genesis 18:1-2). Two of these "men" were later called "angels" (19:1) and one was Yahweh Himself in human form (18:13, 17, 20, 33). We might also recall how Jacob wrestled with "a man" near the Jabbock River (Genesis 22-24). In Hosea 12:4, this "man" is identified as an "angel." Later yet, under the Old Covenant period, angels continued to appear as men. Joshua encountered the "captain of the host of the LORD" who was simply called "a man" (Joshua 5:13-15)

 

[Alabaster]

Thank you for your response, I"ll stick with the former being heavenly messengers and the latter being prophets.:waving

Hallelujah!

 

[Alabaster]

After me. Where did you get that "we" from?" Gifted Christians (all gifts) do not set their hearts & faith on "end-times."

'We' meant this forum.

Preterists are living in the New Jerusalem - where there is no more curse.

So, an imaginary land.


The New Jerusalem has not come yet.

Revelation 21:1-4 NLT

The New Jerusalem

1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. 2 And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them.4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.”

 

[Alabaster]

So you are not part of the BODY of Christ?;)

I, along with millions of born again believers, comprise the Body of Christ in the world today.

Then you must admit that in at least one way He has returned bodily.

No, He has not returned bodily. He lives in each believer by His indwelling Spirit.

Correct. We are all still waiting for this personal return to be fulfilled:

Act 1:11 - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.​

However, most of Revelation is concerned with this figurative return which is clearly not at the end of time as we think of it today, but marked the end of Temple Judaism:

Mat 21:40 - When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 - They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.​

Revelation is concerned with Christ's bodily return, the Great Tribulation/Jacob's Trouble, His Millennial Kingdom on earth, the defeat of Satan, the final Judgment, and then the New Jerusalem.

 

[Lehigh3]

Revelation is concerned with Christ's bodily return, the Great Tribulation/Jacob's Trouble, His Millennial Kingdom on earth, the defeat of Satan, the final Judgment, and then the New Jerusalem.

I guess you weren't following this thread & just decided that Tim Lahaye's false prophecies were real anyway & everyone must believe them?

Revelation is a symbolic book. In Rev.19, Christ is shown with a sword coming out of His mouth. So much for a physical return! Try again.

 

[Alabaster]

I guess you weren't following this thread & just decided that Tim Lahaye's false prophecies were real anyway & everyone must believe them?

I don't follow Mr. LaHaye. I follow Jesus, and I believe His word. You must believe that, if you want to have a full and rich life in the here and now and eternal life after you die.

Revelation is a symbolic book. In Rev.19, Christ is shown with a sword coming out of His mouth. So much call for a physical return! Try again.

While revelation contains much rich imagery and symbolism, there is much literalism there, also.

The task for the serious Christian is to invite Holy Spirit to lead in one's study.

Personally, unless one's walk is right with God and he is seeing spiritual fruit in his life, I don't suggest studying it too closely. It tends to knock people off their spiritual pins and if those supports are weak in the first place, their eschatology will be rife with craziness, and their basic theology will drift into error.

 

[reba]

Personally, unless one's walk is right with God and he is seeing spiritual fruit in his life, I don't suggest studying it too closely. It tends to knock people off their spiritual pins and if those supports are weak in the first place, their eschatology will be rife with craziness, and their basic theology will drift into error.

AMEN

 

[Hitch]

Revelation is concerned with showing ' unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass'.

Amazing how many christians dont believe that.

 

[warhorse]

No, that would be tribes of the earth who aided & abetted His crucifixion.

Those were in the great tribulation - God's wrath.

None of the Hebrew Christians remained in the city. None of the Christians died bc they "fled to the mts" when they saw the Abomination of Desolation.

You should read The Jewish war by Josephus.

nonsense
Rev 1v7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[Sam21]

We need a sticky for that modernistic dispensationalist nonsense

I am not a dispensationalists and I recognize that some of the NT prophecies came true in the first century, on the other hand, the idea that Jesus has actually returned seems to be beyond the realm of consideration.