The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[Hitch]

I am not a dispensationalists and I recognize that some of the NT prophecies came true in the first century, on the other hand, the idea that Jesus has actually returned seems to be beyond the realm of consideration.

Yup.

 

[Hitch]

nonsense
Rev 1v7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

If 'every eye' as used here means the whole of humanity ,as futurists like to say it does, there not much reason for the verse to specfically include 'and they which also pierced him ' .
Odd though that those who insist this does reference all humanity using "every eye"; in the strictest woodenly literal application, will fall all over themselves on ;
1


1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which (A)God gave Him to (B)show to His bond-servants, (C)the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it (D)by His angel to His bond-servant (E)John, 2who testified to (F)the word of God and to (G)the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
3(H)Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; (I)for the time is near.


Perhaps its natural, if 'every eye" must mean exactly that then soon must not really mean anything at all, well at least not soon in any sense the term has ever been used.

 

[Stormcrow]

nonsense
Rev 1v7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Addressed here.

 

[warfrog]

Greetings,

Why is it that all things being possible through God that noone considers that all in the sea, Death and Hades wont see Him on His return?
Surely all eyes shall see Him, even those who peirced Him.
Those who sleep in Him shall be raised incorruptible and those who dont will not until thier due time after the thousand years and a little time.
Those who are alive at His coming shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye and meet up with those who sleep, in the air with Him and shall forever be with Him.
Those who are dead must wait until the second judgement seat where Death and Hades shall be the final enemies cast into the lake of fire, that is the second death.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
​

 

[Alabaster]

Greetings,

Why is it that all things being possible through God that noone considers that all in the sea, Death and Hades wont see Him on His return?
Surely all eyes shall see Him, even those who peirced Him.
Those who sleep in Him shall be raised incorruptible and those who dont will not until thier due time after the thousand years and a little time.
Those who are alive at His coming shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye and meet up with those who sleep, in the air with Him and shall forever be with Him.
Those who are dead must wait until the second judgement seat where Death and Hades shall be the final enemies cast into the lake of fire, that is the second death.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
​

Exactly!

 

[warhorse]

If 'every eye' as used here means the whole of humanity ,as futurists like to say it does, there not much reason for the verse to specfically include 'and they which also pierced him ' .
Odd though that those who insist this does reference all humanity using "every eye"; in the strictest woodenly literal application, will fall all over themselves on ;
1


1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which (A)God gave Him to (B)show to His bond-servants, (C)the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it (D)by His angel to His bond-servant (E)John, 2who testified to (F)the word of God and to (G)the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
3(H)Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; (I)for the time is near.


Perhaps its natural, if 'every eye" must mean exactly that then soon must not really mean anything at all, well at least not soon in any sense the term has ever been used.

Every eye is a direct statement to presume less would controdict its meaning on the other hand, Soon is a matter of perspective, to a child soon would be excedingly Quick, as time is based on his short life experiances. But to grandpa soon would take longer. Now to an eternal God indirect statements of time become difficult to define. Oh and my version uses the word shortly in that text.

Rev1v1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 

[Stormcrow]

Surely all eyes shall see Him, even those who peirced Him.

For the third time, "every eye" to Christ's apostles ISN'T "every eye" to us! You're taking the words COMPLETELY out of context!

Again:

{7} Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Revelation 1:7 (YLT)

(Young's Literal Translation.)

Now, the parallel passage from Matthew:

{30} “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth [or all the tribes of the land] will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (HCSB)

(I used the HCSB here because it includes the bracketed footnote!)

This prophecy IN BOTH VERSES comes right out of Zechariah 12, which tells us EXACTLY who the "tribes of the land" are!!!

{10} "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

{11}"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. {12} "The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; {13} the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; {14} all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14 (NASB)

These passages ARE CLEARLY NOT about "every eye" as we - in 21st century America - apply the words! They are not about US, WE, AMERICA, or THE CHURCH!!! They are about the families (tribes) of "the land" (Israel and Judah) and JERUSALEM!

These words could not have been any plainer to Christ or His apostles! Stop adding meaning to them that the Bible DOES NOT SUPPORT!!!

THANK YOU!

 

[Alabaster]

"Every eye shall see Him" does not indicate anything but the fact that EVERYONE WHO IS ALIVE at the time of His coming will not miss seeing it. The Jews are mentioned because the Great Tribulation which immediately precedes Christ's coming, is the time of Jacob's Trouble, where God will have been focusing on finishing up with Israel, bringing them to the final opportunity to receive their Messiah.

 

[Stormcrow]

Every eye is a direct statement to presume less would controdict its meaning

So "every eye" is literal from the point of view of a 21st century evangelical, but "soon" is figurative???

And you don't see the problem with that???

Why don't we just take every word in the Bible to mean whatever we want it to, then:

"Cross" means "pony." "Death" means "party." "Sin" means "holy."

That's exactly what you're doing to the Word!

When you try to force the words in the Bible to fit a doctrine, instead of taking them as they are intended for the people to whom they were spoken and written, you get the kind of irrational garbage that passes for "Bible study" in American churches today!

 

[Stormcrow]

"Every eye shall see Him" does not indicate anything but the fact that EVERYONE WHO IS ALIVE at the time of His coming will not miss seeing it.

You ignore the truth of God's Word and substitute it with your own meaning. Sad.

the Great Tribulation which immediately precedes Christ's coming

And that "great tribulation" is discussed at length HERE:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/pre-trib-post-trib-two-tribs-35634/#post533867

and here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/pre-trib-post-trib-two-tribs-35634/#post533880

Enjoy!

 

[Alabaster]

You ignore the truth of God's Word and substitute it with your own meaning. Sad.

Actually, that is exactly what you do.

Do you not comprehend that God considers a thousand years as but a mere day in the scope of things?

 

[Stormcrow]

Actually, that is exactly what you do.

Funny. I don't see any scriptural support coming from you. I see beliefs, opinions and interpretations, but when I cite scriptures AS THEY ARE CLEARLY WRITTEN, you accuse me of twisting the Word??? :biglol:toofunny

Do you not comprehend that God considers a thousand years as but a mere day in the scope of things?

Must be nice to quote any verse out of context any time you want to make a point that doesn't even fit the topic.

 

[Alabaster]

Funny. I don't see any scriptural support coming from you. I see beliefs, opinions and interpretations, but when I cite scriptures AS THEY ARE CLEARLY WRITTEN, you accuse me of twisting the Word??? :biglol:toofunny

Before you speak, take a real look. I post as much, if not more scripture than quite a few members here.

We are discussing THE EXACT SAME SCRIPTURES! What we are dealing with is spiritual discernment.

Must be nice to quote any verse out of context any time you want to make a point that doesn't even fit the topic.

Your comment is MOOT.

 

[Alabaster]

 

[Stormcrow]

We are discussing THE EXACT SAME SCRIPTURES! What we are dealing with is spiritual discernment.

Then you would see that Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 both come from Zechariah 12. You would see EXACTLY what the words "every eye" meant to the writers of the New Testament BASED ON THE PROPHECY IN ZECHARIAH!

As you do not, what does that suggest about your "spiritual discernment?"

Just wondering.

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/pros-cons-preterism-35670/index14.html#post540460

 

[Alabaster]

Then you would see that Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 both come from Zechariah 12. You would see EXACTLY what the words "every eye" meant to the writers of the New Testament BASED ON THE PROPHECY IN ZECHARIAH!

As you do not, what does that suggest about your "spiritual discernment?"

Just wondering.

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/pros-cons-preterism-35670/index14.html#post540460

Matthew 24:30 NLT
And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


"All the peoples of the earth" means just that...unless you think only Jews will be alive at the time of the Lord's coming, which would be silly, seeing as Zechariah is prophesying that the Lord will intervene and defend Israel from attacking enemy nations and He will keep Jerusalem safe.

In Zechariah the Lord is talking about His own, the Jews, and how they will mourn that they had rejected their Messiah.


Zechariah 12:8-10 NLT
On that day the Lord will defend the people of Jerusalem; the weakest among them will be as mighty as King David! And the royal descendants will be like God, like the angel of the Lord who goes before them! For on that day I will begin to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died.


Revelation is self-explanatory: the entire world that remains will see Him---ALL NATIONS!

Revelation 1:7 NLT
Look! He comes with the clouds of heaven.
And everyone will see him—
even those who pierced him.
And all the nations of the world
will mourn for him.
Yes! Amen!


Holy Spirit helps us decipher the differences between passages, so that we do not become confused.

 

[Stormcrow]

I wouldn't exactly call the New Living Translation the "gold standard" of study Bibles. :o

Try reading it in the Greek.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat24.pdf

gEs...LAND

 

[Alabaster]

I wouldn't exactly call the New Living Translation the "gold standard" of study Bibles. :o

Try reading it in the Greek.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat24.pdf

gEs...LAND

I got this---it's good enough for me!


G1093
γῆ
gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.



Not one person on the face of the earth will miss seeing His coming. Why on earth do you wish to change the message of God?

 

[Stormcrow]

Why on earth do you wish to change the message of God?

You're the one changing it. I've done the best I can to show you the truth of what these passages mean. You're on your own now.

 

[Alabaster]

You're the one changing it. I've done the best I can to show you the truth of what these passages mean. You're on your own now.

I am sorry you do not see the truth of this matter. Only Holy Spirit can show you.