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The Pros & Cons of Preterism

Jesus promises His own that He will return BODILY. He hasn't done so yet. Some people are so gullible to believe that their hope of His coming is over!
So you are not part of the BODY of Christ?;)

The thing about figurative interpretation is that it may be applied at different scales. When people insist there exists only one scale they are fooling themselves and cornering their reasoning. Parables are scalable. That is why you can find a personal message applicable to your life from a parable about corporate Israel. Many other concepts in the Bible are scalable. While I know that Christ has returned at one scale, He has yet to return at others.
 
So you are not part of the BODY of Christ?;)

I am, absolutely.

The thing about figurative interpretation is that it may be applied at different scales. When people insist there exists only one scale they are fooling themselves and cornering their reasoning. Parables are scalable. That is why you can find a personal message applicable to your life from a parable about corporate Israel. Many other concepts in the Bible are scalable. While I know that Christ has returned at one scale, He has yet to return at others.

On the physical scale, He has yet to return.
 
With all that said above, but yet here we are, living in the Church age. Where salvation is given freely, easily at least here in the USA. We are waiting for the physical return of Jesus. Not just some happy freely spirit type. His return will be seen by all the world. Yes, He is not finished with the Jewish nation. There is a 7 yr time still owed to God for the transgression of sin. When you see the "he" that enforcers a convent with the Jews, to rebuild their temple, which has not been built as of yet, a future event. This same "he" Antichrist will break his convent with the Jews half way through 1260 days. Then the Great tribulation will start, "Jacob trouble". The tribulation is for the salvation of the Jewish nation, plain and simple.. And as far as the Church age unforeseen, One, I believe Jesus knew exactly what He was doing when he brought the Church age in.. because again here we are..:D


Amen-2.gif
 
Go on, Reba. Paste about partial.

Still waiting.

If most people here who subscribe to preterism are admitting now that they subscribe to partial preterism, what parts do they espouse and what parts do they deny?

Let's get it out on the table.
 
Still waiting.

If most people here who subscribe to preterism are admitting now that they subscribe to partial preterism, what parts do they espouse and what parts do they deny?

Let's get it out on the table.

Proverbs 30:33 Surely the churning of milk bringeth forth butter, and the wringing of the nose bringeth forth blood: so the forcing of wrath bringeth forth strife.

I learned a long time ago to pick and choose my battles when it came to theological views. But if I am to err, it will always be on the side of Grace, not wrath.

It is one thing to be fervant on one's belief, but in doing so we still have a TOS to maintain. :praying
 
Still waiting.

If most people here who subscribe to preterism are admitting now that they subscribe to partial preterism, what parts do they espouse and what parts do they deny?

Let's get it out on the table.
I am a partial preterist, i believe that the events of Dan 9 were completed in 70 ad, but that was not about the church it was the about the end of the Old Covenant. I still expect a return of the lord on the day of the lord in the near future. If you dont believe that everything from revelation is in the future you are a partial preterist or hystoricist.
 
I too am awaiting His return :thumbsup

One of the cons of full pretersim (mpov) would be not having His return to look forward too. Even though i dont believe it will be in my life time.
 
Still waiting.

If most people here who subscribe to preterism are admitting now that they subscribe to partial preterism, what parts do they espouse and what parts do they deny?

Let's get it out on the table.

I do not consider myself a preterist in any way, shape, or form, but I do feel that the preterist understanding of MUCH of the fulfillment of what was written is correct. I believe that an open mind and honest heart that studies the scriptures will come to the conclusion that most of the prophesies in scripture were applicable to past generations and peoples.

My dissent with the preterist is in how they 'spiritualize' away what Jesus said would happen and what his students fully expected to happen within their lifetime. Based on the scriptures, I unlike them believe that Jesus actually physically returned and physically raised the dead saints as the scriptures said he would at his coming. Preterism does not teach this, instead they typically hold to the idea that Jesus' coming in judgment make it possible for the saints that die physically to immediately be translated to Heaven with him spiritually. I think that idea has a weak scriptural foundation and I stand against it.

Like others I fully expect the reign of Jesus' Kingdom to come to this world at a future time. I have no idea when, and I know of no signs other than perhaps the 2 witnesses to look to to know when the end will be at hand. What I do know is that death and the grave (hell) will be destroyed (in the lake of fire) and that all things will be made new and the just man will have access to trees of life as he (or she) abides in peace under the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
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Originally Posted by Alabaster
Still waiting.

If most people here who subscribe to preterism are admitting now that they subscribe to partial preterism, what parts do they espouse and what parts do they deny?

Let's get it out on the table.

I dont know why you're waiting this has all been gone over before, everything that was to happen 'soon' as per the scritptures happened, those things left for the future have yet to happen.
 
Re: The Pros & Cons of Preterism


Elijah here:

OK: Let me say that there is no one that become anymore 'saved & spiritually smart' (Heb. 6:1-5's meat) than by the Holy Ghost leading them! Rom. 8:14
Rom. 8:1!
_______




This has to be one of the best quotes that I have seen...:salute

--Elijah here: Thanks!
But please be careful:thumbsup Or do you want to get me banned?;)
 
7} Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. {8} You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. James 5:7-8 (NASB)
18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)
{2} For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. {3} While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 (NASB)
(Who are "they" and what is the "destruction" that will "come upon them suddenly?")
But Jesus turning to them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. {29} "For behold, the days are coming when they will say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.' {30} "Then they will begin TO SAY TO THE MOUNTAINS, 'FALL ON US,' AND TO THE HILLS, 'COVER US.' {31} "For if they do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?" Luke 23:28-31 (NASB)
and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; {17} for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" Revelation 6:12-17 (NASB)
Every one of the apostles believed they would see these events unfold in their lifetime. Jesus even told them they would!
{1} And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power." Mark 9:1 (NASB)
John wrote these things were "coming soon", and the "time was near." A growing number of biblical scholars now believe John's gospel was written in 65 or 66 AD. If so, there's only one event that fits all the events foretold by Peter, Paul, James, Matthew, Luke, and Mark. Only one.
From both external and internal evidence of the Book of Revelation, an early date is the only option which will harmonize well with the content of the book. Although the later date of 96 AD is widely accepted in many Christian circles and groups today (even though this theory basically only rests on one statement in one external source), the evidence in the book of Revelation itself points rather clearly to an earlier date of 65-66 AD for the time of writing, the time when John was banned to the Isle of Patmos during the persecution by Caeasar Nero.
Believing the words of the Lord given to the apostles doesn't make one an "evil preterist", it makes one a disciple of Christ.

For what it's worth.
 
I am a partial preterist, i believe that the events of Dan 9 were completed in 70 ad, but that was not about the church it was the about the end of the Old Covenant. I still expect a return of the lord on the day of the lord in the near future. If you dont believe that everything from revelation is in the future you are a partial preterist or hystoricist.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain it. Thank you. :)
 
I dont know why you're waiting this has all been gone over before, everything that was to happen 'soon' as per the scritptures happened, those things left for the future have yet to happen.

If partial preterism represents a bona fide group, then we needed a Sticky for that as well.
 
If partial preterism represents a bona fide group, then we needed a Sticky for that as well.

After me. Where did you get that "we" from?" Gifted Christians (all gifts) do not set their hearts & faith on "end-times."

Preterists are living in the New Jerusalem - where there is no more curse.

I feel sorry for anything else!:waving
 
After me. Where did you get that "we" from?" Gifted Christians (all gifts) do not set their hearts & faith on "end-times."

Preterists are living in the New Jerusalem - where there is no more curse.

I feel sorry for anything else!:waving

C'mon Lehigh3. Though preterist do a much better job of understanding the scriptures in their proper context than dispensationalists and do a good job of applying 1st century relavence to the "end time" and "last days" prophecies, they are mistaken in claiming that we live in the New Jerusalem of a new Heaven and new Earth at this time. The fact is that preterists like the rest of us still live in a cursed world of sin and death that has yet to come under the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven. The preterist (mis)understanding of the world post 1st century baffles me considering how well they understand everything prior to the end of the age. If only they hadn't bought into the 'church' dogma that dominates christianity and had been consistant in their use of scripture as it relates to post 70 ce............
 
Truthovertradition,
Obviously you started this thread bc you wanted to express the "pros" & or perhaps wanted a full preterist help you with the "cons" of preterism?

You've come a long way already. I do wish I could find an article about (& I may yet find it in my notebook) how the writers of the "creeds" were much busier battling the "gnostics" about Jesus physical resurrection, & were much more concerned about defending the Trinity than interpreting prophecy.

Any way, there will always be "sin & death" in this world. Free will & evil will continue on until the very last red star burns out- or "we" wind up nuking it.

Here is an interesting article for you. I could recommend more preterist books & articles also for your studies & understanding of full preterism.
God gave the Revelation & He knew the day & hour (Rev.1) He also said that the things in the book "must shortly take place" Some were already & the rest, according to the epilogue in Rev.22 also- all was included which was in the book- & would take place shortly. Can God tell time, Truthovertradition?

Kingdom and Dominion Restored
We see the restored kingdom and glory in Daniel: Daniel is in captivity in Babylon: God gave him a vision of the glory to come:
Dan. 7:13, 14 - I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
I don’t know of any one in my church background that doesn’t acknowledge this as Christ’s coronation at his ascension. The whole imagery of his coming to heaven upon clouds, to the Ancient of days, etc brings scenes of Christ’s ascension to our minds.
Christ is expressly stated to then receive dominion over all peoples and nations. The prophetic type of Solomon is here seen to be fulfilled in Christ. But, and here is the point, look what it says about the saints:
Dan. 7:21, 22 – I beheld, and the same horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
"Kingdom" here does not mean the church; it is not saying the time came when the saints possessed the church. They possessed the church from Pentecost, but this follows the persecution of the little horn. Possessing the kingdom signifies world dominion.
Same with the word "judgment" – it does not mean the act of adjudicating so much as it signifies the act and power of ruling. When God asked Solomon what he wanted, Solomon asked for wisdom to judge his people – this did not mean wisdom merely when sitting as judge, adjudicating a case; he meant wisdom to rule.
The point of Daniel’s vision is that the kingdom and dominion that had been the beasts’ would become the saints with Christ.
Dan. 7:27 - And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
If we can think of the kingdom in terms of Israel under Solomon, in which there are those that are sons of the kingdom and there are strangers who are under subjection and pay tribute, we would have a proper concept of the kingdom.
This is why the Jews thought the kingdom of heaven meant they were to receive the dominion of the world; it is why Premillennialists believe it today. It is because that is what the scri pture said of the Messiah. Like Solomon, his rule would be world wide; and the saints would rule with him.
Isa. 2:2 – And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow into it.
Hills & mountains are symbols for nations and peoples: The kingdom would be exalted and have dominion over all others.
Ps. 2:8, 9 - Ask of me, and I shall give [thee] the heathen [for] thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth [for] thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
The fact that the nations are under the kingdom’s dominion pretty well shows that his kingdom is much, much bigger than the church.
Just as Rome was a city, but its empire was world wide, so the church is the new Jerusalem, and our kingdom and dominion is world wide!
This is the true significance of the term ecclesia; the term does not mean that the saints are not called out of the world; rather the term signified a body politic; an assembly gotten together to conduct the business of the realm. Ecclesia: an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating. That is the point of calling the church the ecclesia – we are members of the ruling body politic with Christ. We reign with him as princes over the nations of the world.
Rev. 5:10 - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
This is the true significance of the New Heavens and Earth. They represent the world in which the tables are finally turned. No more forever crushed, bruised or oppressed; we are sons and daughters of God almighty and he is guiding all of history in favor of his people, ruling the nations with a rod of iron. The implications of this for the world are immense. Rather than abandon the world to its own devices, we are challenged to conform the world to Christ.
Conclusion
The kingdom is the restored spiritual and temporal dominion of the sons of God through the reigning Christ.

Here's the link:

Rethinking the Kingdom
 
Dan. 7:21, 22 – I beheld, and the same horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them; until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
"Kingdom" here does not mean the church; it is not saying the time came when the saints possessed the church. They possessed the church from Pentecost, but this follows the persecution of the little horn. Possessing the kingdom signifies world dominion.


Possesing the kingdom means possessing the kingdom, not world domination. The saints were taken by Jesus at his Parousia, clothed with immortality, and then given dominion in the Kingdom. A Kingdom which is not of this world and is inclusive of the spiritual realm. Earth is not the all in all of the Kingdom, only a FUTURE part of a Kingdom that already exists.
I believe that understanding is more in line with what is taught in scripture than what preterists promote.
 


Possesing the kingdom means possessing the kingdom, not world domination. The saints were taken by Jesus at his Parousia, clothed with immortality, and then given dominion in the Kingdom. A Kingdom which is not of this world and is inclusive of the spiritual realm. Earth is not the all in all of the Kingdom, only a FUTURE part of a Kingdom that already exists.
I believe that understanding is more in line with what is taught in scripture than what preterists promote.

"Possessing the kingdom means possessing the kingdom?" Would you like to clarify on that? His dominion does not mean world domination either, if you read that article.
And, "The saints were taken by Jesus?" I think you picked up on Ed Stevens too much (the AD70 rapturist) No one was removed physically from the earth who was alive. True, they put on immortality (the dead) & the living were raised to heavenly places in Christ. The error is not that Ed Stevens is a full preterist- but that he- like most futurists, misunderstand Paul's seed analogy. Even the "resurrection" for the saints. If the resurrection was physical- then there would have been no question whether it took place or not. It would have been seen & obvious.

"and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Rev.11:18b)

The resurrection was inexorably bound up in the end time of Israel. All eschatological expectation was linked to this hope: "Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God night and day hope to come." (Acts 26:6-8; also Acts23:4; & 24:21). Hosea had prophesied that God would ransom them from the power of the grave. (Hos.13:13, cf. 1Cor.15:55)
Isaiah had foretold that death would be swallowed up in victory. (Isa.25:8- cf 1Cor. 15:54)
Daniel placed the resurrection at the time of the great tribulation, the abomination of desolation, & the destruction of the holy people. (Dan.12:1-3;7,11,13)
Jesus applied this language to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 (Matt.24:15,21; Mk 13:14.19; Lk. 21:20)
Jesus said that some of his disciples would not taste death before they saw Him coming in his kingdom & then would reward every man according to his works. (Matt.16:27,28; Lk 9:26,27)
Christ tied the judgment to the end of the Mosaic age & destruction of Jerusalem. (Matt.24:30,34; 25:31)
Paul said Jesus would "judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and his kingdom" (2Tim 4:1)
The kingdom came in its fullness when Jerusalem fell. (Lk.21:31; Heb.12:28)

The urgency with which the apostles saw the day hastening on is present in all the epistles. Paul said "the time is short" (1Cor.7:29) James said "the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." (Jm.5:8) It was "at the door" (v.9) Peter told his readers that "the end of all things was at hand" (1Pet.4:7), & Jesus was "ready to judge the quick and the dead" (1Pet.4:5) & "it was time for judgment to begin at the house of God." (v.17)

The popular concept among the Jews about the resurrection & kingdom was that it would subsist in the material realm. They looked for an earthly kingdom & a physical resurrection from the dead. (note Matt.22:23-33)
That basic error persists until this day in the Christian church, having come down to us through the creeds.
Men's preconceived notions about the nature of the second coming & the resurrection prevent them from understanding the eschatological climax of the ages spread before them in the holy scriptures.
Yet Paul was very clear: "it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body." (1Cor.15:44) The resurrection is spiritual, not physical. Like the kingdom, "it cometh not with observation." (Lk.17:20)

I hope that helped a bit!

 
No one was removed physically from the earth who was alive.

If the resurrection was physical- then there would have been no
question whether it took place or not. It would have been seen & obvious.

These again are MY, not necessarily Ed Stevens points of contention with what is espoused in preterism. I believe that Jesus said that there would be a literal physical resurrection at his coming and that at that time those who were "alive and remained" would be gathered with the resurrected to meet Jesus in the sky as Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4. To say that that did not occur is to in effect say that Jesus' predictions, his promises, as well as the expectations of his followers were all incorrect.

Why would we expect to know the exact historical details of a resurrection of a few hundred thousand at most that took place at a time and in a place where a massive slaughter and chaos was taking place some 2000 years ago? We know that some of the dead were raised when Jesus was killed, but we have no record of this event and the times were much less volitile in the region then. All I am saying is that lack of secondary evidence does not mean something that Jesus said would happen did not occur.

As far as the meaning of "Possessing the kingdom means possessing the kingdom", what I meant was that the saints who Jesus came for were literally at that time taken to be with Jesus and since that time, those saints have literally possessed or should I say been in the Kingdom of Heaven.
 
Jesus promises His own that He will return BODILY. He hasn't done so yet. Some people are so gullible to believe that their hope of His coming is over!
So you are not part of the BODY of Christ?;)
I am, absolutely.
Then you must admit that in at least one way He has returned bodily.
On the physical scale, He has yet to return.
Correct. We are all still waiting for this personal return to be fulfilled:
Act 1:11 - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

However, most of Revelation is concerned with this figurative return which is clearly not at the end of time as we think of it today, but marked the end of Temple Judaism:
Mat 21:40 - When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 - They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
 
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