The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[Sam21]

Reality check,Jesus did not return and gather the apostles off the earth,the sun did not go black,the moon red, the stars did not fall,the beast of Rev has not appeared,and satan has not been bound. If those things had occured we would not be here,convicted by the Spirit of the need to be saved and the world would not be on the brink of destruction. On the other hand,the New Testament is written in such a way that it "appears"that all of those things should have happened in the first century. Here is TRUTH,the bible makes it appear that all the things spoke by Jesus and in Rev would occur within a lifetime of those who received the message...however THOSE THINGS HAVE NOT OCCURED!!! I am sorry for those folks who cannot handle the time element but the answer is not to fabricate events that NEVER TOOK PLACE. It is important that nothing in the NT ever says that the events have to happen in the first century or at any specific time,so "shortly" and "at hand" ,does not say that Christ HAD to return in the lifetime of the apostles,though it does leave that impression. An impression is not the same thing as a statement of absolute fact...no one knows the day or hour.

 

[Stormcrow]

I am sorry you do not see the truth of this matter. Only Holy Spirit can show you.

Come to think of it, you're committing the same error with "every eye" that you did with "whole world".

You were shown repeatedly - both from scripture and from history - how wrong you were in your interpretation of "whole world in this thread:

http://www.christianforums.net/f20/gospel-preached-inhabited-world-pre-ad70-35666/

Now you're doing the same thing here in this thread: substituting your own meanings for words that Christ, Zechariah, and the apostles NEVER meant!

You might get away with your interpretation of "every eye" had its true interpretation not come right from the pen of Zechariah: something you simply ignore because it doesn't fit your doctrine.

Whatever.

 

[Stormcrow]

Jesus did not return and gather the apostles off the earth,the sun did not go black,the moon red, the stars did not fall,the beast of Rev has not appeared,and satan has not been bound.

You take all these symbols literally, then allegorize "soon" and "near." 2

 

[reba]

Jesus did not return and gather the apostles off the earth,the sun did not go black,the moon red, the stars did not fall,the beast of Rev has not appeared,and satan has not been bound.

You take all these symbols literally, then allegorize "soon" and

"near." 2​

The above 2 quotes have a lot of barring on why i questioned the teaching i had for years. NOT questioning the Word of God. Questioning how we interpret the Scriptures.

Soon it not to taken literal
red moon is literal
at hand is not literal
darken sun literal

ETC.

We say satan is not bound... The evil we see is of man .



​

 

[Elijah674]

http://biblelight.net/antichrist.htm

preterest + rome?

 

[Sinthesis]

However, Christ never said He would return again in the flesh in scripture.

Two dudes said He will return as he left. He left in a body via a cloud. As to His return in this manner; whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth. However, this will be a personal return He makes just for you. OK, actually we all get one, at least those of us with eyes.:puppydogeyes

The verses above are parables about the end of the Jewish age & the beginning of the gospel age & the Gentiles bearing fruits to God. And, the church age or gospel age or new covenant age- never ends, once it came- Eph.3:20-21. Support with scripture otherwise -thanks.

Yeah, and the gospel age refers to God's relationship with His people through Christ, which is eternal. However the universe around you is not eternal and is limited in its ability to support life. Our only hope beyond death is in God.

There is no 3rd coming!

That depends on your point of view. To any subject there are only two comings, but there are many subjects. First century Judaism is at the head of the pack.

Mat 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.​

PPS- The Old covenant was the "age of the law" The New is the "age of grace" And that (this age- which was the age to come- post AD70) never ends. His kingdom has no end. (Dan.2; Isa.9, etc)

The age of the new covenant is defined by God's relationship with His people and is independent of location. His Kingdom is not constrained to the physical universe. Thus this planet could be obliterated and every human done in, yet the Kingdom would remain.

 

[Sinthesis]

I got this---it's good enough for me!


G1093
γῆ
gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.



Not one person on the face of the earth will miss seeing His coming. Why on earth do you wish to change the message of God?

That's too bad. The NLT is like processed food. Tasty, easy to swallow, and it will keep you alive, but it is spiritual food that's been pre-digested by someone else. You need wholesome natural food that takes some chewing on your part, taking the time to ruminate, if you will, in order to get the full meaning of scripture. KJV is effective because it forces today's English speaking Christian to dwell on the Word of God before they can swallow it's meaning. Greek would be better. Milk vs. Meat. YMMV

As toward your chosen understanding of the 'earth', consider:

Rev 10:6 - And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:​

Is not the sea part of the earth? Is God being redundant?

 

[Sinthesis]

I, along with millions of born again believers, comprise the Body of Christ in the world today.

No, He has not returned bodily. He lives in each believer by His indwelling Spirit.

So then Christ has a body in the world today, yet He has not returned bodily, so He must have never left?:headbomb

Revelation is concerned with Christ's bodily return, the Great Tribulation/Jacob's Trouble, His Millennial Kingdom on earth, the defeat of Satan, the final Judgment, and then the New Jerusalem.

Perhaps, but not in the way in which you so desire it to be. It's not about you; It's for you!

And no, Revelation is not completed, thus 'partial'.

 

[Lehigh3]

The age of the new covenant is defined by God's relationship with His people and is independent of location. His Kingdom is not constrained to the physical universe. Thus this planet could be obliterated and every human done in, yet the Kingdom would remain.

This planet? And you are a "science" major? No, not on the physical planet earth for sure!

The age of the New covenant was "the world or age to come." It is explained in Hebrews, especially. Jesus was the Mediator of the New Covenant. The Old (of the law) became obsolete. Paul was given the ministry of apostle to the gentiles. His "mystery" is Jew & Gentile in Christ. Not 5k years from then by until the temple made with hands (the Jewish temple) was destroyed. That is when "the age to come, came."

The official announcement of the Kingdom of God (the kingdom of Christ was intermediary) John was a brother in tribulation in Christ kingdom- as he describes it. But God made all Jesus' enemies His footstool - the Christ handed up the fulfilled OT kingdom to the Father- & co-rules in heaven forever.

You must respect the timing of WHEN the MYSTERY of Jew & Gentile in Christ did bring the age of grace.
The church age has no end (Eph.3:20-21)

The New covenant was official at the last trumpet. (Rev.11)

I suggest you read Hebrews again-with an open mind.

 

[Hitch]

Every eye is a direct statement to presume less would controdict its meaning on the other hand, Soon is a matter of perspective, to a child soon would be excedingly Quick, as time is based on his short life experiances. But to grandpa soon would take longer. Now to an eternal God indirect statements of time become difficult to define. Oh and my version uses the word shortly in that text.

Rev1v1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

LOL It is idiotic to assume to take any position on the Apocalypse that requires the first century audience be disregarded.

Now to an eternal GOd; Hmmmm so you think this was written to God or do you think God isnt smart enough to actually convey what He means?

Dont pretend to be a literalist, clearly you are not.

 

[warhorse]

For the third time, "every eye" to Christ's apostles ISN'T "every eye" to us! You're taking the words COMPLETELY out of context!

Again:

{7} Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Revelation 1:7 (YLT)

(Young's Literal Translation.)

Now, the parallel passage from Matthew:

{30} “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the peoples of the earth [or all the tribes of the land] will mourn; and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (HCSB)

(I used the HCSB here because it includes the bracketed footnote!)

This prophecy IN BOTH VERSES comes right out of Zechariah 12, which tells us EXACTLY who the "tribes of the land" are!!!

{10} "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

{11}"In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. {12} "The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; {13} the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; {14} all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14 (NASB)

These passages ARE CLEARLY NOT about "every eye" as we - in 21st century America - apply the words! They are not about US, WE, AMERICA, or THE CHURCH!!! They are about the families (tribes) of "the land" (Israel and Judah) and JERUSALEM!

These words could not have been any plainer to Christ or His apostles! Stop adding meaning to them that the Bible DOES NOT SUPPORT!!!

THANK YOU!

First off, you are way outside the mainstream on this interpritation here, not me. The statement was to all the kindred of the earth, not the tribes of israel. That's your twist not mine.
Rev1v7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Mark 1325 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21v26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Rev 6v12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Your position simply has to deny way to much, plain scripture for anyone to seriously trust it.
Oh!!! and Math 24 is a parralel passage to Mark 13, and Luke 21. it is mearly simular to rev 1v7. Those three passages are considered parralel because they are three interpretations of the exact same statement by christ.

 

[warhorse]

LOL It is idiotic to assume to take any position on the Apocalypse that requires the first century audience be disregarded.

Now to an eternal GOd; Hmmmm so you think this was written to God or do you think God isnt smart enough to actually convey what He means?

Dont pretend to be a literalist, clearly you are not.

Yet the tribulation of the Jews, nor the church has stopped has it. In fact it has grown and gotten much worse hasnt it. i have not excluded the 1st century Jews with my position. I just wont let you dilute the pain and suffering of other 19 centuries without evidence. The events of the first century were just the beggining of sorrows...

 

[Sam21]

You take all these symbols literally, then allegorize "soon" and "near." 2

Can you see what you are doing? You are taking the time element very literal(shortly has to mean literal shortly),however you are rejecting the literal meaning of almost everything else in order to make it appear that the events in the NT have all occured. Reverse yourself,make the time element symbolic and all the events literal, then you would be in step with 95% of christian belief.

 

[Hitch]

Yet the tribulation of the Jews, nor the church has stopped has it. In fact it has grown and gotten much worse hasnt it. i have not excluded the 1st century Jews with my position. I just wont let you dilute the pain and suffering of other 19 centuries without evidence. The events of the first century were just the beggining of sorrows...

Huh?

 

[Hitch]

Can you see what you are doing? You are taking the time element very literal(shortly has to mean literal shortly),however you are rejecting the literal meaning of almost everything else in order to make it appear that the events in the NT have all occured. Reverse yourself,make the time element symbolic and all the events literal, then you would be in step with 95% of christian belief.

Dragons and scorpions and abominations oh my.

 

[warhorse]

However, Christ never said He would return again in the flesh in scripture. The verses above are parables about the end of the Jewish age & the beginning of the gospel age & the Gentiles bearing fruits to God.
And, the church age or gospel age or new covenant age- never ends, once it came- Eph.3:20-21. Support with scripture otherwise -thanks.
There is no 3rd coming!

PPS- The Old covenant was the "age of the law" The New is the "age of grace" And that (this age- which was the age to come- post AD70) never ends. His kingdom has no end. (Dan.2; Isa.9, etc)

Did you forget about John 14v1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

 

[Stormcrow]

First off, you are way outside the mainstream on this interpritation here

That's alright. So was Jesus.

The statement was to all the kindred of the earth, not the tribes of israel. That's your twist not mine.

I cited the prophecy from Zechariah from which the parallel passages in the synoptic gospels and Revelation came. You need to keep reading it until it sinks in.

Your position simply has to deny way to much, plain scripture for anyone to seriously trust it.

It's not "my" position. I quoted the words from the Bible EXACTLY as they appear in the best translations available: Young's Literal, NASB, and even HCSB.

You aren't seeing these things through the eyes of Christ or His disciples. You're defending a doctrine, not looking for truth.

BTW, an appeal to the authority of the majority is a logical fallacy. The majority of people once believed the earth was flat; the majority of people once believed the sun revolved around the earth; the majority of people once thought man would never fly, would never break the speed of sound, would never cross the ocean in hours rather than months or days.

Appeals to the authority of the majority to support your doctrine - therefore - are the weakest and most easily refutable of all.

The majority is often wrong. If it were not so, someone else would be sitting in the White House right now.

P.S. That last part was meant for Sam21...in a hurry...out the door. Buh-bye!

 

[Sinthesis]

This planet? And you are a "science" major? No, not on the physical planet earth for sure!

The age of the New covenant was "the world or age to come." It is explained in Hebrews, especially. Jesus was the Mediator of the New Covenant. The Old (of the law) became obsolete. Paul was given the ministry of apostle to the gentiles. His "mystery" is Jew & Gentile in Christ. Not 5k years from then by until the temple made with hands (the Jewish temple) was destroyed. That is when "the age to come, came."

The official announcement of the Kingdom of God (the kingdom of Christ was intermediary) John was a brother in tribulation in Christ kingdom- as he describes it. But God made all Jesus' enemies His footstool - the Christ handed up the fulfilled OT kingdom to the Father- & co-rules in heaven forever.

You must respect the timing of WHEN the MYSTERY of Jew & Gentile in Christ did bring the age of grace.
The church age has no end (Eph.3:20-21)

The New covenant was official at the last trumpet. (Rev.11)

I suggest you read Hebrews again-with an open mind.

The Law didn't last forever. This universe won't last forever. Christianity will. That is the point.:infinity

 

[Stormcrow]

Reverse yourself,make the time element symbolic and all the events literal, then you would be in step with 95% of christian belief.

Why would I do that when there is nothing symbolic about the words "soon" and near"? As my mom used to say, "If 95% of other people jumped off a bridge, would you do it?"

Sorry. My house is a "lemming-free" zone.

 

[warhorse]

That's alright. So was Jesus.

I cited the prophecy from Zechariah from which the parallel passages in the synoptic gospels and Revelation came. You need to keep reading it until it sinks in.

It's not "my" position. I quoted the words from the Bible EXACTLY as they appear in the best translations available: Young's Literal, NASB, and even HCSB.

You aren't seeing these things through the eyes of Christ or His disciples. You're defending a doctrine, not looking for truth.

BTW, an appeal to the authority of the majority is a logical fallacy. The majority of people once believed the earth was flat; the majority of people once believed the sun revolved around the earth; the majority of people once thought man would never fly, would never break the speed of sound, would never cross the ocean in hours rather than months or days.

Appeals to the authority of the majority to support your doctrine - therefore - are the weakest and most easily refutable of all.

The majority is often wrong. If it were not so, someone else would be sitting in the White House right now.

P.S. That last part was meant for Sam21...in a hurry...out the door. Buh-bye!

I dont like lemming's either so we agree there. But in this case the magority appear to be right. Even the interpretations you used displayed an earthwide scale, i fail to see why you then limit the events to jews in jerusalam. As i see it the events of 70 ad fullfilled a lot of prophacy, but Jesus has not yet returned. and when he does all eyes will see him both the quick and the dead.