The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[freeway]

He obviously knows enough to call it what it is---FALSE. I think he's sharp, and uses the word of God to express his views. Can't ask for better than that.

Isn't any church you have gone to equipped to handle rightly the entire word of truth?


There is more to our salvation than good works. Christian clubs can do that. Churches have a huge responsibility to teach the truth and care for your spiritual health and straight growth...and to PROTECT you from heretical teaching.

That's what I thought--online churches, most of which are populated and led by the unchurched.

That is a belief that Jesus does not teach. We are commanded to not forsake the assembly.

Must have been a bad church that neglected the Scriptures.

I tried to read the whole thread, but I'll be honest I read maybe first five pages, it is kinda goin back and forth. So I'll start here, and side in with Alabaster. Now I don't know where she/he stands on all events of bible prophecy. But for myself the book of Revelation in no way has "all" come to past.. Jesus is not reigning here on earth in bodily form, sin is still with us, Satan has not been chained in hell, we have not seen Jesus return in the clouds. etc etc.. So I'll start there... freeway.:D

 

[reba]

Sticky: Contra-Hymenæan Preterism and Orthodox Preterism

Quoting Dee Dee Warren: There is a relatively recent wind of false doctrine that goes by the name of "full preterism" or attempts to co-opt the word "preterism" which teaches that ALL eschatological prophecy has come to pass, including the resurrection, the Great White Throne Judgment, the destruction of satan, and the Second Coming of Christ. This is outside the historic Christian faith, and in my view, is the making of another "Christian" cult (in the theological sense, not the brainwashing or sociological sense).

http://www.preteristsite.com/



Quoting Wikipedia: Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days (or End Times) refer to events which actually happened in the first century after Christ's birth. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning "past". Adherents of Preterism are known as Preterists. The two principal schools of Preterist thought are commonly called Partial Preterism and Full Preterism.

There is substantial disagreement over the terms used to denote these divisions of Preterist thought. Some Partial Preterists prefer to call their position Orthodox Preterism, thus contrasting their deference to the creeds of the Ecumenical Councils with what they perceive to be the Full Preterists' disregard for the same. Partial Preterism is also sometimes called Classical Preterism or Moderate Preterism. Some Full Preterists prefer to call their position Consistent Preterism, reflecting their extension of Preterism to all biblical prophecy and suggesting an inconsistency in the Partial Preterist hermeneutic. The correct labeling of the positions in relation to each other is a matter of heated dispute amongst some Partial Preterists and Full Preterists who would reject those labels and argue for others, most noteably, which view may simply be called "preterism."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism

 

[Alabaster]

Preterism is a variant of Christian eschatology which holds that some or all of the biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days (or End Times) refer to events which actually happened in the first century after Christ's birth. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning "past". Adherents of Preterism are known as Preterists. The two principal schools of Preterist thought are commonly called Partial Preterism and Full Preterism.


I dont like putting people into boxes and that is what i am going to do
Most folks here would be in the box marked Partial Pretersim

Go on, Reba. Paste about partial.

 

[reba]

Alabaster,

I have posted the whole STICKY now. I kept 'dropping' parts of the copy and paste.

The Sticky should help some folks understand what is being discussed a bit clearer.

 

[Alabaster]

There is nothing there that states what partial Preterism believes. Until then, it is all under the false teaching of Preterism and this forum needs to give a wide berth to it.

 

[Hitch]

And all Millinialists are really JWs..




Really all we need to do is pretend right? Thats a 95% of so-called 'chrisitian eschatology' anyway.

Actually Allabaster you are purposefully subverting the doctrine of the bodily return of Christ for some preceived advantage, through your intimation that there are no substantial differences.

Your attempt at a cheap gain strikes at the heart of one of the most basic and ancient of christian doctrines, and yours is a shameful use.

 

[Stormcrow]

I'm not a preterist. I would just like Alabaster (or anyone else) to address these questions:

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

Why would John write these words at the behest of Christ if they were not true for the people he was writing them?

Why would the last chapter of Revelation emphasize the words of Christ three times that He was "coming quickly" if those words weren't true to the people of John's time?

{7} "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:7 (NASB)

{12} "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

{20} He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Why did John say it was "the last hour?"

{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

Why did Peter write:

{7} The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

If your view of eschatology can't answer these simple questions, maybe your view of eschatology isn't adequate to do so.

Therefore, please don't ascribe ignorance or malice to others when you haven't answered these questions yourself.

 

[Sinthesis]

Lies divide. Truth unites believers. There is a reason that Preterism has been a fringe element of Christianity for so long---it is aberrant.

Luk 12:51 - Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:​

Is Christ lying? Of course not, but one could think otherwise if they did not understand the actual meaning of the verse. ;)

Now Jesus is also a prophet, and a prophet is proved to be from God through the successful fulfillment of their prophecies to the satisfaction of the believer.

1Cr 14:22 - Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.​

So as a believer this is what I look for: In what way can the prophecies of the true biblical prophets be understood to be fulfilled?
It it a false teaching if I can show the prophecies were fulfilled and thus in fact from God?

Consider todays rabbinic Judaism. Ask a learned Jew why they don't accept Jesus as their Messiah and they can provide several old testament messianic prophesies which they firmly believe Jesus has failed to fulfill. Without eyes to see they are convinced they are correct, but through the benefit of the hindsight Christianity provides it is clear to us that those same prophesies are in fact fulfilled through Jesus Christ. The fascinating aspect of this disagreement is that we as Christians depend on a figurative interpretation for fulfillment rather than the literal interpretation Jews demand. Today we have the sad situation of otherwise righteous Jews still waiting for their expected Messiah along with otherwise righteous Christian futurists still waiting for their expected eschaton.
It is fulfilled prophesy that confirms the Covenant to the believer.

 

[Alabaster]

Luk 12:51 - Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:​

Is Christ lying? Of course not, but one could think otherwise if they did not understand the actual meaning of the verse. ;)

Now Jesus is also a prophet, and a prophet is proved to be from God through the successful fulfillment of their prophecies to the satisfaction of the believer.

1Cr 14:22 - Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.​

So as a believer this is what I look for: In what way can the prophecies of the true biblical prophets be understood to be fulfilled?
It it a false teaching if I can show the prophecies were fulfilled and thus in fact from God?

Consider todays rabbinic Judaism. Ask a learned Jew why they don't accept Jesus as their Messiah and they can provide several old testament messianic prophesies which they firmly believe Jesus has failed to fulfill. Without eyes to see they are convinced they are correct, but through the benefit of the hindsight Christianity provides it is clear to us that those same prophesies are in fact fulfilled through Jesus Christ. The fascinating aspect of this disagreement is that we as Christians depend on a figurative interpretation for fulfillment rather than the literal interpretation Jews demand. Today we have the sad situation of otherwise righteous Jews still waiting for their expected Messiah along with otherwise righteous Christian futurists still waiting for their expected eschaton.
It is fulfilled prophesy that confirms the Covenant to the believer.

Jesus promises His own that He will return BODILY. He hasn't done so yet. Some people are so gullible to believe that their hope of His coming is over!


2 Thessalonians 2:2 NLT
Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.


2 Timothy 2:16-18 NLT
Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior. This kind of talk spreads like cancer, as in the case of Hymenaeus and Philetus. They have left the path of truth, claiming that the resurrection of the dead has already occurred; in this way, they have turned some people away from the faith.

 

[Alabaster]

And all Millinialists are really JWs..




Really all we need to do is pretend right? Thats a 95% of so-called 'chrisitian eschatology' anyway.

Actually Allabaster you are purposefully subverting the doctrine of the bodily return of Christ for some preceived advantage, through your intimation that there are no substantial differences.

Your attempt at a cheap gain strikes at the heart of one of the most basic and ancient of christian doctrines, and yours is a shameful use.

I subvert NOTHING...except Satan's kingdom, praise God!

I speak the truth of the word. Where's your scripture?

 

[Alabaster]

I'm not a preterist. I would just like Alabaster (or anyone else) to address these questions:

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

Why would John write these words at the behest of Christ if they were not true for the people he was writing them?

Why would the last chapter of Revelation emphasize the words of Christ three times that He was "coming quickly" if those words weren't true to the people of John's time?

{7} "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:7 (NASB)

{12} "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

{20} He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Why did John say it was "the last hour?"

{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

Why did Peter write:

{7} The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

If your view of eschatology can't answer these simple questions, maybe your view of eschatology isn't adequate to do so.

Therefore, please don't ascribe ignorance or malice to others when you haven't answered these questions yourself.

I don't expect Jesus to come slowly. "A twinkling of an eye' is a fraction of a fraction of a second!

God's plan is still in effect where His Son is building His Church. When He says it's time for Him to saddle up and go get His Bride, He will---in the Father's time---not yours.

My God has given us His word and Has not amended it to relate the Second Coming as past tense. Until then, we have no right to run ahead of Him because we have a finite understanding of 'soon' and 'quickly'.

Preterists spiritualize everything---yet on the basis of a few simple words that you cannot wrap your heads around, you would much rather create a doctrine.

 

[Stormcrow]

yet on the basis of a few simple words that you cannot wrap your heads around, you would much rather create a doctrine.

Interesting. While preterists are said to create a doctrine around a "few simple words" that Christ Himself spoke to John, you seem to create a doctrine from nothing Christ spoke.

Oh, ye of little faith.

It only takes a mustard seed if planted into what Christ actually said. Where is your faith planted?

 

[Alabaster]

Interesting. While preterists are said to create a doctrine around a "few simple words" that Christ Himself spoke to John, you seem to create a doctrine from nothing Christ spoke.
It only takes a mustard seed if planted into what Christ actually said. Where is your faith planted?

The thing is, I believe everything that Jesus says, and do not believe what a few oddballs preach because they can't believe that the Lord would tarry as many years as He has. Impatience breeds the opposite of wisdom.

Proverbs 19:2 NLT
Enthusiasm without knowledge is no good;
haste makes mistakes.



My mustard seed faith is now as Jesus says---a huge, strong tree where birds can nest...praise Jesus!

 

[freeway]

I'm not a preterist. I would just like Alabaster (or anyone else) to address these questions:

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

Why would John write these words at the behest of Christ if they were not true for the people he was writing them?

Why would the last chapter of Revelation emphasize the words of Christ three times that He was "coming quickly" if those words weren't true to the people of John's time?

{7} "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:7 (NASB)

{12} "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

{20} He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Why did John say it was "the last hour?"

{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

Why did Peter write:

{7} The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

If your view of eschatology can't answer these simple questions, maybe your view of eschatology isn't adequate to do so.

Therefore, please don't ascribe ignorance or malice to others when you haven't answered these questions yourself.

You keep saying we have it wrong because John in Revelation say "quickly" as in it has to happen within his life time, which at his age at his writings would make it very quick. Now all of this of course is based on and if Revelation was written before 70 ad which I believe is was not "history lesson" if you want. The come quickly versus you post are telling me, just like Adam in that day you eat of the fruit you will surely die. Well we know Adam lived almost a thousand years. His spiritual body died that day but his fiscal body lived on and had many children. The quickly that you keep quoting does not mean in a few short years, but rather be ready for I can and will come for my bride, Church at time you are "not looking for". Further more when you see these things begin to happen that generation will not past away until all things are ffulfilled I can list a lot of verses if you want to learn more. Bible prophecy is being fulfilled today as we speak.. Come Lord Jesus...quickly.:D

 

[reba]

This is a place for discussion. If the topic offends you to the point you feel you must be rude dont read/post. There are plenty of topic on these boards. Please be grown up enough to allow folks a meaning full discussion with out badgering.

I will be combing this thread and others in end times and clearing out what i consider to be rude or hateful etc.

 

[Hitch]

You keep saying we have it wrong because John in Revelation say "quickly" as in it has to happen within his life time, which at his age at his writings would make it very quick. Now all of this of course is based on and if Revelation was written before 70 ad which I believe is was not "history lesson" if you want. The come quickly versus you post are telling me, just like Adam in that day you eat of the fruit you will surely die. Well we know Adam lived almost a thousand years. His spiritual body died that day but his fiscal body lived on and had many children. The quickly that you keep quoting does not mean in a few short years, but rather be ready for I can and will come for my bride, Church at time you are "not looking for". Further more when you see these things begin to happen that generation will not past away until all things are ffulfilled I can list a lot of verses if you want to learn more. Bible prophecy is being fulfilled today as we speak.. Come Lord Jesus...quickly.:D

The time of writting may have an effect on interpretation but it has no effect of the terms used or the definition of those terms.

What is cute here says a lot about the current state of American futurism.

Further more when you see these things begin to happen that generation will not past away until all things are fulfilled I can list a lot of verses if you want to learn more. Bible prophecy is being fulfilled today as we speak..


The most popular futurists schemes are based on the 'church age' notion pushed by Scofield and others ,of which a prominent feature the church age ending rapture. The elephant in the room is the main feature, the so-called parenthetical church age itself. Since this 'age' was unforeseen and unprophecied an interruption in God's plan for Israel ,it is impossible to have 'bible prophecy being fulfilled today' or any day during the 'church age'.
Either God forgot about the 'Dispensation of Grace' (church age) and began working with Israel as a nation off schedule or the distinction never existed. It is not possible to have the church age/rapture cake and bible prophecy being fulfilled today, and as the quote above demonstrated, the average devotee doesnt even know it.

 

[Elijah674]

Pros & Cons of Preterism

Originally Posted by Stormcrow
I'm not a preterist. I would just like Alabaster (or anyone else) to address these questions:

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB)

{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)

{6} And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

{10} And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

Why would John write these words at the behest of Christ if they were not true for the people he was writing them?

Why would the last chapter of Revelation emphasize the words of Christ three times that He was "coming quickly" if those words weren't true to the people of John's time?

{7} "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." Revelation 22:7 (NASB)

{12} "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. Revelation 22:12 (NASB)

{20} He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. Revelation 22:20 (NASB)

Why did John say it was "the last hour?"

{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)

Why did Peter write:

{7} The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

If your view of eschatology can't answer these simple questions, maybe your view of eschatology isn't adequate to do so.

Therefore, please don't ascribe ignorance or malice to others when you haven't answered these questions yourself.
----------------


You keep saying we have it wrong because John in Revelation say "quickly" as in it has to happen within his life time, which at his age at his writings would make it very quick. Now all of this of course is based on and if Revelation was written before 70 ad which I believe is was not "history lesson" if you want. The come quickly versus you post are telling me, just like Adam in that day you eat of the fruit you will surely die. Well we know Adam lived almost a thousand years. His spiritual body died that day but his fiscal body lived on and had many children. The quickly that you keep quoting does not mean in a few short years, but rather be ready for I can and will come for my bride, Church at time you are "not looking for". Further more when you see these things begin to happen that generation will not past away until all things are ffulfilled I can list a lot of verses if you want to learn more. Bible prophecy is being fulfilled today as we speak.. Come Lord Jesus...quickly.:D
​

Jesus saves
-----------

Elijah here: The mods just seem waiting to lock something??;) (that is with a question mark!)

OK: Let me say that there is no one that become anymore 'saved & spiritually smart' (Heb. 6:1-5's meat) than by the Holy Ghost leading them! Rom. 8:14 Rom. 8:1!

NOW: Who has [ALL] the smarts?? Any one human of today?? HARDLY!

We see both preterism + non/preterism + in between something?? and that is for all of us 'slow' ones!

But here is my point, God allows for one to have free will even with Christians. We can be NO MORE SAVED than to LIVE UP TO WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVES US! And yes, the Word of God call's [[OPEN SINNERS ALL SORTS OF TRUE INSPIRED STUFF!]] But, these ones here all claim to be Born Again Holy Spirit Followers Of TRUTH, Right??

And there is NO ONE HERE that knows what is in another's heart! Or how far they have been Led of God! So, God is still behind these 'sincere' (IGNORANT??) ones, in which ever way that He wants the satanic stuff way to go, it will do so, we are His ones to be used to get it done! Got that?? It is NOT TO BE ANYTHING PERSONAL if it is done in FOLLOWING UP IN OBEDIENCE TO THE TRUTH THAT WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN!!

In Matt. 24:21 we see a good starting point of the END/TIME!
OK: Use this above on 'me'? And you best believe that I am Sincere & LOVE MY LORD.
So, who does God today use to teach that Christ is here on earth bodily? The ones which are the above ones.. who are not very smart! And these others who are not very smart either?;) God uses them also, and both might be sincere Born Christians who are as described above.. walking in all of the truth that the Holy Spirit has been able to give them??

Here comes some more:;) Who here can handle the pen of Daniel?? If Dan. & Rev. were studied together just perhaps the Holy Spirit [could] take our 'last day' knowledge further? One might even understand a 2300 day (long last day) prophecy as included IN A LAST DAY TRUTH!? Anyway, one might find that it is longer than what they had thought?!

But regardless, we can only be held accountable for the knowledge that we have been given. And yes, that is TRUTH as seen in Hosea 4:6 as long as previous knowledge has not been rejected!

---Elijah
​

 

[freeway]

Quote form Hitch:


The most popular futurists schemes are based on the 'church age' notion
pushed by Scofield and others ,of which a prominent feature the church age
ending rapture. The elephant in the room is the main feature, the so-called
parenthetical church age itself. Since this 'age' was unforeseen and
unprophecied an interruption in God's plan for Israel ,it is impossible to
have 'bible prophecy being fulfilled today' or any day during the 'church
age'.
Either God forgot about the 'Dispensation of Grace' (church age) and
began working with Israel as a nation off schedule or the distinction never
existed. It is not possible to have the church age/rapture cake and bible
prophecy being fulfilled today, and as the quote above demonstrated, the
average devotee doesnt even know it.

With all that said above, but yet here we are, living in the Church age. Where salvation is given freely, easily at least here in the USA. We are waiting for the physical return of Jesus. Not just some happy freely spirit type. His return will be seen by all the world. Yes, He is not finished with the Jewish nation. There is a 7 yr time still owed to God for the transgression of sin. When you see the "he" that enforcers a convent with the Jews, to rebuild their temple, which has not been built as of yet, a future event. This same "he" Antichrist will break his convent with the Jews half way through 1260 days. Then the Great tribulation will start, "Jacob trouble". The tribulation is for the salvation of the Jewish nation, plain and simple.. And as far as the Church age unforeseen, One, I believe Jesus knew exactly what He was doing when he brought the Church age in.. because again here we are..:D

 

[freeway]

Elijah here:

OK: Let me say that there is no one that become anymore 'saved & spiritually smart' (Heb. 6:1-5's meat) than by the Holy Ghost leading them! Rom. 8:14
Rom. 8:1!

This has to be one of the best quotes that I have seen...

 

[Hitch]

With all that said above, but yet here we are, living in the Church age. Where salvation is given freely, easily at least here in the USA. We are waiting for the physical return of Jesus. Not just some happy freely spirit type. His return will be seen by all the world. Yes, He is not finished with the Jewish nation. There is a 7 yr time still owed to God for the transgression of sin. When you see the "he" that enforcers a convent with the Jews, to rebuild their temple, which has not been built as of yet, a future event. This same "he" Antichrist will break his convent with the Jews half way through 1260 days. Then the Great tribulation will start, "Jacob trouble". The tribulation is for the salvation of the Jewish nation, plain and simple.

Paul quoting the prophet says now is the time of salvation, you are contrary

. And as far as the Church age unforeseen, One, I believe Jesus knew exactly what He was doing when he brought the Church age in.. because again here we are..:D

He said careful to avoid the subject. :biglol