The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[Hitch]

I dont like lemming's either so we agree there. But in this case the magority appear to be right. Even the interpretations you used displayed an earthwide scale, i fail to see why you then limit the events to jews in jerusalam. As i see it the events of 70 ad fullfilled a lot of prophacy, but Jesus has not yet returned. and when he does all eyes will see him both the quick and the dead.

Has Stromcrow argued that the Second Advent has taken place?

 

[Sam21]

Folks, the time element is a problem for sure,however the remedy is not to conjure up a return of Christ that never occured,Paul was clear that at the return of Christ the believers would be gathered to Christ in the sky and the world would be paid back for its evil...none of which has happened.

 

[Hitch]

But Israel was judged for her regicide.

 

[freeway]

Reality check,Jesus did not return and gather the apostles off the earth,the sun did not go black,the moon red, the stars did not fall,the beast of Rev has not appeared,and satan has not been bound. If those things had occured we would not be here,convicted by the Spirit of the need to be saved and the world would not be on the brink of destruction. On the other hand,the New Testament is written in such a way that it "appears"that all of those things should have happened in the first century. Here is TRUTH,the bible makes it appear that all the things spoke by Jesus and in Rev would occur within a lifetime of those who received the message...however THOSE THINGS HAVE NOT OCCURED!!! I am sorry for those folks who cannot handle the time element but the answer is not to fabricate events that NEVER TOOK PLACE. It is important that nothing in the NT ever says that the events have to happen in the first century or at any specific time,so "shortly" and "at hand" ,does not say that Christ HAD to return in the lifetime of the apostles,though it does leave that impression. An impression is not the same thing as a statement of absolute fact...no one knows the day or hour.

Very good post... and also along this line, God told Adam and Eve if the ate from the tree in that day they would surely die.......................almost a thousand years later, physically, So to say when Paul or any of the New testament writers by saying shortly do in "NO" way apply to that group.. Bible prophecy almost always have a short revelation and a long term revelation.. God noway nohow ever keep his children in the dark...Those that think Jesus came back in 70AD and believe only a few know of this need to wake up and look around. Right now as I see it, and you can ask anyone, Satan seem to be winning if Jesus came back... But in that day when Jesus comes back at the end of the time of Jacobs trouble EVERY Eye will see Him... Now that is plan as the nose on our faces.... EVERY EYE...:D

 

[Hitch]

Very good post... and also along this line, God told Adam and Eve if the ate from the tree in that day they would surely die.......................almost a thousand years later, physically, So to say when Paul or any of the New testament writers by saying shortly do in "NO" way apply to that group.. Bible prophecy almost always have a short revelation and a long term revelation.. God noway nohow ever keep his children in the dark...Those that think Jesus came back in 70AD and believe only a few know of this need to wake up and look around. Right now as I see it, and you can ask anyone, Satan seem to be winning if Jesus came back... But in that day when Jesus comes back at the end of the time of Jacobs trouble EVERY Eye will see Him... Now that is plan as the nose on our faces.... EVERY EYE...:D

Is the kingdom larger or smaller that it was in Jesus day?

 

[freeway]

But Israel was judged for her regicide.

Israel rejected their Messiah, so in turn Jesus say He would not return until the "Nation of Israel calls out his name" . Now Jews are being saved by grace everyday all over the world and that is great.. But for their Messiah, our Savior to come back the Nation of Israel will have to all upon the Lord. So after 3.5 year in the tribulation when the AC desecrates the temple "which is not there" as we speak then the Jews will see that the one they pierced is their Messiah.
Again showing a preview in 70 AD to what is going to happen "again".:D

I can put up the scriptures for my belief, but we seem to debating the same scriptures away... Just the Holy Spirit will have to revel to those that have the blinders on...

 

[Hitch]

Israel rejected their Messiah, so in turn Jesus say He would not return until the "Nation of Israel calls out his name" . Now Jews are being saved by grace everyday all over the world and that is great.. But for their Messiah, our Savior to come back the Nation of Israel will have to all upon the Lord. So after 3.5 year in the tribulation when the AC desecrates the temple "which is not there" as we speak then the Jews will see that the one they pierced is their Messiah.
Again showing a preview in 70 AD to what is going to happen "again".:D

Actually Jesus said it would be a unique event in history, but what did he know.

 

[freeway]

Is the kingdom larger or smaller that it was in Jesus day?

Is the world in a better state or worse.. not grace that saves, that is wonderful.. but by the world standard are we living in a time that we can be annihilated at any moment?:D If we are living in the Kingdom then why?

Oh, forgive me... goodmoring hitch

 

[Hitch]

Is the world in a better state or worse.. not grace that saves, that is wonderful.. but by the world standard are we living in a time that we can be annihilated at any moment?:D

First I'll note you were afraid to answer my question .


Repeated here;

Is the kingdom larger or smaller that it was in Jesus day?


The world is much better. If you dont think so and if as you imply it was better at some former time please tell us when that time was.

Was it 100 years ago?

Was it 500 years ago?

A thousand years ago?

 

[Lehigh3]

Did you forget about John 14v1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

And just WHERE do you think "My Father's House" is? It's heaven. "receive you to myself" is the same as when they stoned Stephen," Lord receive my spirit."

Then in AD70 was the resurrection of the dead from Hades to heaven. Just like was promised to Daniel many years in the future. Daniel would "rest" until the resurrection of the dead, when he would receive his inheritance. They were to wait for the revealing of the sons of God (the apostles).

In Matt.24:29-31, Jesus said:
The Coming of the Son of Man


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


I'm so glad I am free from Churchianity. I am in the kingdom of God now- which is more than a church. It's universal.

John 4:19-24 NKJV,
19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.â€
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.â€

The "hour" came when the temple in Jerusalem was sacked.
Rev.11:1-2, 1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Preterists are in the New Jerusalem. But the "salvation call is still going out.

Freedom from Churchianity!

 

[Stormcrow]

i fail to see why you then limit the events to jews in jerusalam.

Maybe it's because of this:

{10} "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

{11} "In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. {12} "The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; {13} the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; {14} all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14 (NASB)

See it now? All the tribes of Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 ARE LISTED IN ZECHARIAH 12!

Now, see if you can get the connection between the Old and New Testaments here!

{30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (Darby)

(Even Darby - who resurrected Ribera's Futurism - got the Greek word "ges" translated to "land" properly!)

{7} Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yea. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (Darby)

"Every eye" is set in the context of "those who pierced Him" and "all the tribes OF THE LAND!"

See it now??? Both Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 are saying the same thing Zechariah 12 is, and Zech. 12 ISN'T talking about the "whole world" and "every eye" as we think of those terms today!!! Zech. 12 is talking about JERUSALEM and the TRIBES OF ISRAEL!

Really, I don't know how much simpler it can be!

 

[Stormcrow]

Has Stromcrow argued that the Second Advent has taken place?

Actually, I'm purposely staying away from things like the resurrection and the rapture for now because

A: I haven't gotten that far in looking at all the passages that relate to them and how they tie in with those I'm looking at now, and

B: until I can get people to understand that they can't read words like "whole word" and "every eye" from a 21st century American Fundy-Evangelical perspective, tackling loaded words like "Rapture" will simply be impossible!

People need to unlearn some of the doctrines the church has taught over the last 300 years because these doctrines simply can't be supported by any objective, scholarly look at the Bible.

All you have to do is read the emotional responses from some here, claiming "preterists are going to hell" and that such people are "blinded", "deceived", and that they're pushing "doctrines of Satan" to know that if there were any real scholarship behind their closely-held, oft-repeated doctrines, they wouldn't have to resort to such ad hominem attacks.

If they could really argue these issues on the merits, why do some of them resort to name-calling and emotion?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Folks, the time element is a problem for sure,however the remedy is not to conjure up a return of Christ that never occured,Paul was clear that at the return of Christ the believers would be gathered to Christ in the sky and the world would be paid back for its evil...none of which has happened.

Sam, (in my Optimus Prime voice), unfounded statements spoken with the vigor of factual declarations do not the truth make.

Seriously I have a couple questions.

1. Why do you feel, no stratch that; How do you KNOW that the return spoken of by Jesus and his students didn't occur?

2. Was not the land (that's what earth means in the Bible), judged by God at or around 70 ce?

You say that none of those things happenned when in fact it is very possible that they ALL did happen just as Jesus said they would.

 

[freeway]

Hitch;540984]First I'll note you were afraid to answer my question .

Wow.. afraid is such strong word to be used so loosely by some
a·fraid/əˈfrād/Adjective1. Feeling fear or anxiety; frightened.
2. Worried that something undesirable will occur or be done: "she was afraid of antagonizing him".



So I'm goin to say,,, NO. I'm not afraid.. wow

Repeated here;
Is the kingdom larger or smaller that it was in Jesus
day?
The world is much better. If you dont think so and if as you imply it was
better at some former time please tell us when that time was.
Was it 100 years ago?
Was it 500 years ago?
A thousand years ago?

Wow I'm afraid my answer is not what you want it to be..
but here goes..
Is the Kingdom larger. Now if you are talking about a bodily kingdom form where Jesus rules with a rod iron... then "NO" because is He not ruling with a rod iron right now, because he has not returned to the earth in the same matter as he left.
Now has the gospel spread to more people, tongues, nation since Jesus's first coming .. well of course.. the Great commission.. So as to your question I hope this answers it.. but somehow I feel its not the answer you want or your going to put your spin on it...:D

 

[Hitch]

Wow.. afraid is such strong word to be used so loosely by some
a·fraid/əˈfrād/Adjective1. Feeling fear or anxiety; frightened.
2. Worried that something undesirable will occur or be done: "she was afraid of antagonizing him".



So I'm goin to say,,, NO. I'm not afraid.. wow



Wow I'm afraid my answer is not what you want it to be..
but here goes..
Is the Kingdom larger. Now if you are talking about a bodily kingdom form where Jesus rules with a rod iron... then "NO" because is He not ruling with a rod iron right now, because he has not returned to the earth in the same matter as he left.

Im talking about the kindom Jesus personally described and defined. You would do well to consider his explanation sometime

Now has the gospel spread to more people, tongues, nation since Jesus's first coming .. well of course.. the Great commission.. So as to your question I hope this answers it.. but somehow I feel its not the answer you want or your going to put your spin on it...:D

see above


I will note you have also demonstrated fear is not answering the follow up question ,repeated here;

The world is much better. If you dont think so and if as you imply it was better at some former time please tell us when that time was.

Was it 100 years ago?

Was it 500 years ago?

A thousand years ago?

 

[freeway]

TRUTH over TRADITION;541018]Sam, (in my Optimus Prime voice), unfounded
statements spoken with the vigor of factual declarations do not the truth
make.
Seriously I have a couple questions.

1. Why do you feel, no stratch that; How do you KNOW that the return spoken
of by Jesus and his students didn't occur?

Truth/Trad, could you go and knock on Jesus door and ask Him to come out and talk to us in the flesh. No, because He has not returned as prophecied..

2. Was not the land (that's what earth means in the Bible), judged by God at or around 70 ce?

Everything in creation us judged at the cross, but we still live in a sinful world, do we not.. In the Kingdom that is to come.. Jesus's earthly kingdom everything will be set right..no sin.. no temptation of sin, nada, nothing.

You say that none of those things happenned when in fact it is very possible that they ALL did happen just as Jesus said they would.

You see even by your post you are not sure.. Me I am 101% sure the second coming has not taken place... All eyes will behold the Son of Man coming in Power and Glory... Amen come Lord Jesus....:D

 

[freeway]

Re: The Pros & Cons of Preterism

Stromcrow says:
i fail to see why you then limit the events to jews in jerusalam.


Maybe it's because of this:

{10} "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

freeway says: Now I'm not going to post alot of other scriptures just to show I can, after all we are talking about the same scriptures and my interpreting and you mis interpretation of them. The Jew's did pay a very heavy price for their rejection of Jesus..70 Ad. not that is not the end of it. They will pay even a heavier price in the tribulation at the hands of the AC..

{11} "In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the plain of Megiddo. {12} "The land will mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; {13} the family of the house of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves; {14} all the families that remain, every family by itself and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14 (NASB)

freeway says: Great scriptures, see answer above..

See it now? All the tribes of Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 1:7 ARE LISTED IN ZECHARIAH 12!

Yea so. Jesus know's how the outcome will be upon a Christ rejecting person, city, state, nation, country, world... did I leave anyone out.. oh, me before I was saved by the Blood of the soon returning Christ....in bodily form...

Now, see if you can get the connection between the Old and New Testaments here!

{30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (Darby)

freeway says: Now that is a great discription of the second coming. That I believe will be very soon..


{7} Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yea. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (Darby)

freeway ends with: I think your starting to see it.. the second avent of Christ

:D





​

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Truth/Trad, could you go and knock on Jesus door and ask Him to come out and talk to us in the flesh. No, because He has not returned as prophecied..


Everything in creation us judged at the cross, but we still live in a sinful world, do we not.. In the Kingdom that is to come.. Jesus's earthly kingdom everything will be set right..no sin.. no temptation of sin, nada, nothing.


You see even by your post you are not sure.. Me I am 101% sure the second coming has not taken place... All eyes will behold the Son of Man coming in Power and Glory... Amen come Lord Jesus....:D

freeway,

Your reply confirms that what you believe about what Jesus' return may in fact be different than what He and others in scripture said it would be. You seem to feel that had he returned that he would have an earthly residence, but the scriptures do not make such a declaration. According to him and the scriptures his return was not intended to establish ANYTHING ON THE EARTH. He was said to be returning in judgment on the land AND to collect his elect to himself (you know a snatching away to meet him in the air, that whole bit).

Why do you have such a focus on an earthly kingdom when Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world? I believe that the flaw in thinking of Jesus' kingdom as an Earthly one is what is playing a major part n standing between us all agreeing on and understanding the truth of the matter.
Based on what the scriptures seem to indicate, the most logical thing to conclude is that Jesus went to the Father to receive the reign of the Kingdom after his resurrection, he returnrd in power and in judgment upon the generation he said he would, and at that time he gathered his called out congregation redeeming THEM FROM THE EARTH to ever be with him. At some point in the future (we know it hasn't happenned yet because we still live in a world of sin and death), he will have the reign of his kingdom instituted in this world as it is,..... in Heaven. Before that happens, there will likely be a time of judgment and an opportunity for those living during that time to endure it so that they can have life under the reign of Jesus' Kingdom here on Earth after sin and death has been destroyed in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

Futurism and preterism seem to fail the test of scripture where this understanding passes.

 

[warfrog]

Everything in creation us judged at the cross, but we still live in a sinful world, do we not.. In the Kingdom that is to come.. Jesus's earthly kingdom everything will be set right..no sin.. no temptation of sin, nada, nothing.

Greetings,

This isnt true my brethren, there will be sin, He will rule with an iron rod from the beloved city, we who are raised up in Him will not be given to the second death and we shall inherit the kingdom of God, the new heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem and shall live and dwell with Father and Son forever and ever. Amen. But the second death will come during our reign with Him during the thousand years, not for His, but in fullfillment of God's word, for it must be done, the last enemy destroyed is death, death is sin.

This is what occurs at the end of the thousand years:

"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan shall be released from his prison and will go out to decieve the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who decieved them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it"
"And the dead were judged according to thier works, by the things which were written in the books"
"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

When that is done, we shall inherit the new heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem and live with Father and Son forever and ever. Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[warfrog]

freeway,

Your reply confirms that what you believe about what Jesus' return may in fact be different than what He and others in scripture said it would be. You seem to feel that had he returned that he would have an earthly residence, but the scriptures do not make such a declaration. According to him and the scriptures his return was not intended to establish ANYTHING ON THE EARTH. He was said to be returning in judgment on the land AND to collect his elect to himself (you know a snatching away to meet him in the air, that whole bit).

Why do you have such a focus on an earthly kingdom when Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world? I believe that the flaw in thinking of Jesus' kingdom as an Earthly one is what is playing a major part n standing between us all agreeing on and understanding the truth of the matter.
Based on what the scriptures seem to indicate, the most logical thing to conclude is that Jesus went to the Father to receive the reign of the Kingdom after his resurrection, he returnrd in power and in judgment upon the generation he said he would, and at that time he gathered his called out congregation redeeming THEM FROM THE EARTH to ever be with him. At some point in the future (we know it hasn't happenned yet because we still live in a world of sin and death), he will have the reign of his kingdom instituted in this world as it is,..... in Heaven. Before that happens, there will likely be a time of judgment and an opportunity for those living during that time to endure it so that they can have life under the reign of Jesus' Kingdom here on Earth after sin and death has been destroyed in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

Futurism and preterism seem to fail the test of scripture where this understanding passes.

Greetings,

He will literally rule on earth, with His kingdom.
When He rules on this earth sin and death will not be destroyed, His kingdom will have no sin or death, but sin and death have not been destroyed, when the thousand years expire and the final battle occurs, judgement will be made for all the dead and the last enemy destroyed is Death.
Then we shall forever be with God and His Christ on a new earth with a new heaven, and New Jerusalem.
When Christ raises us and we are judged in Him for all that we have done in the body we shall never be seperated from Him, we will have no power under the second death, for in Him we have no part, so when the thousand years expired, the judgement is on the dead and when Death is destroyed in the lake of fire after ALL judgement, Death being the last judged, we go into the new heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem and live with Father and Son forever and ever. Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.