The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[freeway]

TRUTH over TRADITION;541049]freeway,
Your reply confirms that what you believe about what Jesus' return may in
fact be different than what He and others in scripture said it would be. You
seem to feel that had he returned that he would have an earthly residence, but
the scriptures do not make such a declaration. According to him and the
scriptures his return was not intended to establish ANYTHING ON THE EARTH. He
was said to be returning in judgment on the land AND to collect his elect to
himself (you know a snatching away to meet him in the air, that whole bit).

Yes He snatch away his bride, yet to happen though.. sorry we don't see eye to eye..

Why do you have such a focus on an earthly kingdom when Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world? I believe that the flaw in thinking of Jesus'
kingdom as an Earthly one is what is playing a major part n standing between us
all agreeing on and understanding the truth of the matter.

Yes Jesus's kingdom is not of this world right now. but one day all will be his kingdom. No problem for me there..

Based on what the scriptures seem to indicate, the most logical thing to
conclude is that Jesus went to the Father to receive the reign of the Kingdom
after his resurrection, he returnrd in power and in judgment upon the generation
he said he would, and at that time he gathered his called out congregation
redeeming THEM FROM THE EARTH to ever be with him. At some point in the future
(we know it hasn't happenned yet because we still live in a world of sin and
death), he will have the reign of his kingdom instituted in this world as it
is,..... in Heaven. Before that happens, there will likely be a time of judgment
and an opportunity for those living during that time to endure it so that they
can have life under the reign of Jesus' Kingdom here on Earth after sin and
death has been destroyed in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

I agree with all this above only the part that seems to divide us on this topic. He never can back yet...the Jews suffer lost, a huge lost at the hands of the Romans thats for sure. but until the day they Jewish Nation call out to Jesus to return he will not.. secretly or otherwise.

Futurism and preterism seem to fail the test of scripture where this
understanding passes.

well I guess I'm a little bit of both here, I believe everything up to the end of revelation 4 is pass, excluding the come up here verse.. Rapture.. and from there onward.. future.. :D

 

[Hitch]

Greetings,

He will literally rule on earth, with His kingdom.
When He rules on this earth sin and death will not be destroyed, His kingdom will have no sin or death, but sin and death have not been destroyed, when the thousand years expire and the final battle occurs, judgement will be made for all the dead and the last enemy destroyed is Death.

Originally Posted by Hitch
And so He will remain until the last of His enemies is destroyed yes?

Yes, i presume the (footstool) referance is indecating that.



Well which is it Frog? You cant have Jesus literally in Heaven and literally on earth, its one or the other. You cant have the last enemy defeated and not defeated.

Then we shall forever be with God and His Christ on a new earth with a new heaven, and New Jerusalem.
When Christ raises us and we are judged in Him for all that we have done in the body we shall never be seperated from Him, we will have no power under the second death, for in Him we have no part, so when the thousand years expired, the judgement is on the dead and when Death is destroyed in the lake of fire after ALL judgement, Death being the last judged, we go into the new heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem and live with Father and Son forever and ever. Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Elijah674]

freeway,

Your reply confirms that what you believe about what Jesus' return may in fact be different than what He and others in scripture said it would be. You seem to feel that had he returned that he would have an earthly residence, but the scriptures do not make such a declaration. According to him and the scriptures his return was not intended to establish ANYTHING ON THE EARTH. He was said to be returning in judgment on the land AND to collect his elect to himself (you know a snatching away to meet him in the air, that whole bit).

Why do you have such a focus on an earthly kingdom when Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world? I believe that the flaw in thinking of Jesus' kingdom as an Earthly one is what is playing a major part n standing between us all agreeing on and understanding the truth of the matter.
Based on what the scriptures seem to indicate, the most logical thing to conclude is that Jesus went to the Father to receive the reign of the Kingdom after his resurrection, he returnrd in power and in judgment upon the generation he said he would, and at that time he gathered his called out congregation redeeming THEM FROM THE EARTH to ever be with him. At some point in the future (we know it hasn't happenned yet because we still live in a world of sin and death), he will have the reign of his kingdom instituted in this world as it is,..... in Heaven. Before that happens, there will likely be a time of judgment and an opportunity for those living during that time to endure it so that they can have life under the reign of Jesus' Kingdom here on Earth after sin and death has been destroyed in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

Futurism and preterism seem to fail the test of scripture where this understanding passes.

Christ is now our High Priest. It is not done yet.
And Christ, before He comes again, He will have ALL Judgement Finished. Either saved or lost. He says that He will Bring His REWARD WITH HIM. (Again, ALL Saved or Lost)

He Comes, & there is one resurection of only the Righteous while the Living Rightous go back to heaven to take part in the Judgement of ALL THE WICKED DEAD according to their records [BOOKS!]

When Christ came the time of the Rightous Resurrection, the dead wicked stayed Dead, and the yet living wicked were slain by not only Christ's Rightousness, but ALL THE HOLY ANGELS brilliance as well. (you do remember at the tomb of Christ that the guards fell as dead men at the sight of only two angels?)

When the 1000 years are past all executional judgement has been decided, and we all return to earth & will see the earth be cleansed by fire, and all evil. God will then recreate a new heaven's & earth. This is when all the wicked have their resurection, to die their second eternal death. This is the Bible hell. They come out of their graves the same way that they went into them, and now they all will linger in death until their evil reward has been settled from the judgement, as for their individual executional stage of judgement.

It is exactly as Jer. 4:22-27 discribes!

--Elijah

 

[warfrog]

Yes, i presume the (footstool) referance is indecating that.



Well which is it Frog? You cant have Jesus literally in Heaven and literally on earth, its one or the other. You cant have the last enemy defeated and not defeated.

If you can plainly ask the question ill answer it, honestly i dont really know what you mean in question, you underlined what i wrote, i see that, i dont know what the pink is supposed to mean.
Christ doesnt put everything under his feet God puts everything under Him.
Those Christ raises in Him sleeping and awake at His coming, have no part in death, the second death has no power over them, therefore sin has no power over them, they are inheriters of the kingdom of God and are Christ's kingdom, none He raises at His second coming after judgement of His shall ever be subject to sin or death, but the rest He kills with the brightness of His coming and with the sword of His mouth will be subject to the second death, with all the rest of the dead.
When the thousand years expire, death is still present, when God devours them with fire from heaven and Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are, the dead will be judged, the last judged is Death, after death is cast into the fire we will inherit the new heaven and earth, New Jerusalem and be with God, who will dwell among us, and Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever and ever. Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[freeway]

Greetings,

This isnt true my brethren, there will be sin, He will rule with an iron rod from the beloved city, we who are raised up in Him will not be given to the second death and we shall inherit the kingdom of God, the new heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem and shall live and dwell with Father and Son forever and ever. Amen. But the second death will come during our reign with Him during the thousand years, not for His, but in fullfillment of God's word, for it must be done, the last enemy destroyed is death, death is sin.

This is what occurs at the end of the thousand years:

"Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan shall be released from his prison and will go out to decieve the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who decieved them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it"
"And the dead were judged according to thier works, by the things which were written in the books"
"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

When that is done, we shall inherit the new heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem and live with Father and Son forever and ever. Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your are so very true.. I got a little caught up in the moment.. I was half talking about the 1000 reign and after the great white throne judgement... thanks for the correct....:nod
come Lord Jesus.... quickly

 

[freeway]

Christ is now our High Priest. It is not done yet.
And Christ, before He comes again, He will have ALL Judgement Finished. Either saved or lost. He says that He will Bring His REWARD WITH HIM. (Again, ALL Saved or Lost)

He Comes, & there is one resurection of only the Righteous while the Living Rightous go back to heaven to take part in the Judgement of ALL THE WICKED DEAD according to their records [BOOKS!]

When Christ came the time of the Rightous Resurrection, the dead wicked stayed Dead, and the yet living wicked were slain by not only Christ's Rightousness, but ALL THE HOLY ANGELS brilliance as well. (you do remember at the tomb of Christ that the guards fell as dead men at the sight of only two angels?)

When the 1000 years are past all executional judgement has been decided, and we all return to earth & will see the earth be cleansed by fire, and all evil. God will then recreate a new heaven's & earth. This is when all the wicked have their resurection, to die their second eternal death. This is the Bible hell. They come out of their graves the same way that they went into them, and now they all will linger in death until their evil reward has been settled from the judgement, as for their individual executional stage of judgement.

It is exactly as Jer. 4:22-27 discribes!

--Elijah

Elijah, first and formost let me say I really enjoy chatting with you, and everyone here.. you are very polite in you debates, very impressive. As for myself sometimes I get to carry away in the snide remarks, my hands need to be slapped..
so in saying all that to say this. I read your post and I do understand what you are saying. We both use the same versus as does all of us. But our understanding or what we wish to understand is done only by the Grace of the Holy Spirit, He is the Great teacher.
I will not keep you any longer other than to repost what I know to be the truth, and it is from " Warfrog" my hat is off to Him/Her

"Originally Posted by warfrog


Greetings,

This isnt true my brethren, there will be
sin, He will rule with an iron rod from the beloved city, we who are raised up
in Him will not be given to the second death and we shall inherit the kingdom of
God, the new heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem and shall live and dwell with
Father and Son forever and ever. Amen. But the second death will come during our
reign with Him during the thousand years, not for His, but in fullfillment of
God's word, for it must be done, the last enemy destroyed is death, death is
sin.

This is what occurs at the end of the thousand years:

"Now
when the thousand years have expired, Satan shall be released from his prison
and will go out to decieve the nations which are in the four corners of the
earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the
sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the
camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of
heaven and devoured them. The devil, who decieved them, was cast into the lake
of fire and brimestone where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be
tormented day and night forever and ever."

"Then I saw a great white
throne and Him who sat on it"
"And the dead were judged according to thier
works, by the things which were written in the books"
"Then Death and Hades
were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found
written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

When that is
done, we shall inherit the new heaven and new earth, New Jerusalem and live with
Father and Son forever and ever. Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and
the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Hitch]

If you can plainly ask the question ill answer it, honestly i dont really know what you mean in question, you underlined what i wrote, i see that, i dont know what the pink is supposed to mean.
Christ doesnt put everything under his feet God puts everything under Him.
Those Christ raises in Him sleeping and awake at His coming, have no part in death, the second death has no power over them, therefore sin has no power over them, they are inheriters of the kingdom of God and are Christ's kingdom, none He raises at His second coming after judgement of His shall ever be subject to sin or death, but the rest He kills with the brightness of His coming and with the sword of His mouth will be subject to the second death, with all the rest of the dead.
When the thousand years expire, death is still present, when God devours them with fire from heaven and Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are, the dead will be judged, the last judged is Death, after death is cast into the fire we will inherit the new heaven and earth, New Jerusalem and be with God, who will dwell among us, and Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever and ever. Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You already know ,,, so for anyone reading I had confused the wars, horse and frog, Warfrog did NOT post what I copied in pink.

 

[warfrog]

Elijah, first and formost let me say I really enjoy chatting with you, and everyone here.. you are very polite in you debates, very impressive. As for myself sometimes I get to carry away in the snide remarks, my hands need to be slapped..
so in saying all that to say this. I read your post and I do understand what you are saying. We both use the same versus as does all of us. But our understanding or what we wish to understand is done only by the Grace of the Holy Spirit, He is the Great teacher.
I will not keep you any longer other than to repost what I know to be the truth, and it is from " Warfrog" my hat is off to Him/Her

Greetings,

Let praise God!, for no man has understanding of the heavenly except Him who redeems and from Him who redeems, He himself promised Himself, that He would send to us in His name by His will a Helper.
Through His grace and mercy we recieve our understanding, not that we come across it like a treasure in the field and rejoice that we found it by our own hands, but that He who was sent by Him, has given Himself to us, that by grace and glory He gives understanding and guides us into treasure.

Be glory, and praise, and worship to God Almighty and the Lamb slain for the foundation of the world, forver and ever. Amen.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[warhorse]

Has Stromcrow argued that the Second Advent has taken place?

You and stormcrow both have asserted that the (must happen shortly statement of Rev 1) was fullfilled in 70 ad. Am i correct ???

 

[Sam21]

Sam, (in my Optimus Prime voice), unfounded statements spoken with the vigor of factual declarations do not the truth make.

Seriously I have a couple questions.

1. Why do you feel, no stratch that; How do you KNOW that the return spoken of by Jesus and his students didn't occur?

2. Was not the land (that's what earth means in the Bible), judged by God at or around 70 ce?

You say that none of those things happenned when in fact it is very possible that they ALL did happen just as Jesus said they would.

Paul said that the church would be gathered to Christ in the sky and ever be with the Lord and then Jesus would pay back an evil world...for crying out loud, if all that had happened in the first century then this would be the new heaven and new earth! Is this the new heaven and new earth where pain is gone forever and death is no more and all war has ended??? The human condition today is exactly like it was in the first century.

 

[Hitch]

You and stormcrow both have asserted that the (must happen shortly statement of Rev 1) was fullfilled in 70 ad. Am i correct ???

I do and I think Storm agrees but he and I have never discussed the matter. You can fairly say I take a strict literal stance in R 1-3.

Taking pains to note Warhorse is the questioner lol

 

[jasoncran]

wait till we have a warfrog and warhorse and a warpig!

 

[Hitch]

wait till we have a warfrog and warhorse and a warpig!

battletoad!

 

[jasoncran]

battletoad!

arent you a little old to watch that? well i think you have grandkids.

and i forgot warbird.

 

[Hitch]

There was such a thing? I thought I made that up lol

 

[jasoncran]

There was such a thing? I thought I made that up lol

Battletoads - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Stormcrow]

we are talking about the same scriptures and my interpreting and you mis interpretation of them.

We'll see.

The Jew's did pay a very heavy price for their rejection of Jesus..70 Ad. not that is not the end of it. They will pay even a heavier price in the tribulation at the hands of the AC..

Show me the passage where Christ is crucified on Golgotha again and the Jews are faced with God's wrath again.

Here's what my Bible says:

{22} because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:22 (NASB)
​

All things written regarding God's vengeance appear in Leviticus 26:14-46. It's part of the Mosaic Covenant. Read it sometime. Note these words:

{27} 'Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, Leviticus 26:27 (NASB) ​

What does He say He'll do???

{31} ~'I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. {32} ~'I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. {33} ~'You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. Leviticus 26:31-33 (NASB) ​

{36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:36 (NASB)

​

The desolation God visited upon them for rejecting Christ – literally acting with hostility toward Him – happened (most recently) in 70 AD. Jerusalem remains desolate to this day: the Temple is gone. The priesthood is gone. The sacrifices are gone. The last vestige of the Mosaic Covenant – the punishment Jerusalem and the tribes of Israel would suffer – was fulfilled in 70 AD. The Mosaic Covenant ended with that generation. There is no further punishment which awaits Israel except that which awaits any of us who disbelieve in Him. Therefore, your “interpretation” - which fails to account for this – fails. Epically.

That I believe will be very soon.

Again, you're ignoring an important point about all this:

{1} The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, Revelation 1:1 (NASB) ​

{3} Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:3 (NASB)
​

"Soon" and "near" clearly refer to the time, place, and people to whom John was writing these things. In other words, he was not writing this to or for you!

Just four verses later, John – at Christ's behest – wrote this:

{7} Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him. Yea. Amen. Revelation 1:7 (Darby) ​

Hmmm...why would they do that???

{41} When He [Christ] approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, {42} saying, "If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. {43} "For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, {44} and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Luke 19:41-44 (NASB) ​

If you're going to play "gotcha" with me, you'd better heed this timely advice: Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

 

[Stormcrow]

Musings...

Guess I don't know why - when people are confronted with a choice between God's plain words (like "soon" and "near") or "leaning on their own understanding" - they consistently and stubbornly choose the latter.

It really isn't that hard to get if you make understanding the Word - not defending a doctrine - the goal.

 

[warfrog]

Musings...

Guess I don't know why - when people are confronted with a choice between God's plain words (like "soon" and "near") or "leaning on their own understanding" - they consistently and stubbornly choose the latter.

It really isn't that hard to get if you make understanding the Word - not defending a doctrine - the goal.

May God bless you into Him that you may know Him and may He have mercy on you that you may see and hear Him.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Stormcrow]

May God bless you into Him that you may know Him and may He have mercy on you that you may see and hear Him.

I do and I do and I do.

Thanks.