The Pros & Cons of Preterism

[warhorse]

Some of the arguments against a 70 AD fulfillment now have simply "jumped the shark." My time is important and I'm tired of wasting it responding to the kind of nonsense people could answer for themselves if they bothered to read the Bible instead of "Left Behind."

I'm out. This thread has just gotten way too far off the rails for my taste. 2

But you havent answered up to the this response yet, I will address both #331 and #332 here.

Zec 12v8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I have read it, in fact the answer is right in front of you. God did not rise up to defend Jerusalam in 70 Ad the temple and the peaple were in fact destroyed, the nations that came against Jerusalam won. and reigned on earth for a couple of hundred years after it. THE DAY OF THE LORD IS NOT ABOUT DESTROYING ISRAEL FOR THEIR SIN, its about saving israel for Gods namesake. And destroying the world for its sin.

 

[Sam21]

If there is a teaching that tells us as christians not to be looking for the return of Christ to gather the saints and repay the evil world then I wonder where such a teaching would come from?

 

[Hitch]

If there is a teaching that tells us as christians not to be looking for the return of Christ to gather the saints and repay the evil world then I wonder where such a teaching would come from?

Are you still looking for a virgin birth Sam? Where is the scripture that tells us not to be looking for Son born of a virgin?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Paul said that the church would be gathered to Christ in the sky and ever be with the Lord and then Jesus would pay back an evil world...for crying out loud, if all that had happened in the first century then this would be the new heaven and new earth! Is this the new heaven and new earth where pain is gone forever and death is no more and all war has ended??? The human condition today is exactly like it was in the first century.

Let's clear some things up. First of all, Jesus' called out congregation that had been sealed with God's Holy Breath as well as perhaps the martyred prophets of old mentioned in Matthew 23 were to be the ones that would be gathered with Jesus according to scripture.
I want to be clear with this next point. THE INSTITUTION THAT WE CALL THE CHURCH IS NOT THE SAME AS JESUS' CALLED OUT CONGREGATION!
Now, to address the issue of the new Heaven and new Earth or should I say new sky and new land "wherein dwelleth righteousness". That has not yet come to pass and I believe that is an obvious thing we can agree on. Where we but heads is on the idea that the new land and sky were to be established when Jesus came back in judgment and for his elect. I contend that the new land and sky will not be a reality until the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven is established on this Earth after death and the grave have met their perminent demise. I also contend that that event happening does NOT coincide with what Jesus said of his "soon" return nearly 2000 years ago.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Here are some issues we need to consider and some questions that need answering before we can move forward to a unified and proper understanding of scripture.

1. Who was or is Jesus' bride and when did or when will he come for her?
- is the church that we know the same as what is mentioned in scripture?
- does Matt 16:18 refer to something a bit different that most of us think it does?

2. Who is Israel in today's world? Is there even an Israel today?

3. Is there a covenant relationship with today's nation of Israel and God?

4. Who made up or makes up the body of Christ?
- is anyone today a part of that body?
- where is the body located post 1st century?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

No sir some of those are beliefs, not facts...
Jesus said that all eyes should see him, you are limiting it to the tribes of the land.
Jesus did describe what the tribulation would look like and it still looks like that the tribulation has grown and gotten worse since 70 ad, starting the trib not ending it.
It is the day of the lord that comes quickly, it is the day of the lord that is the day of vengance. It is the day of the lord that comes with world wide destruction.

Isaiah 13v6 Howl ye; for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

2 PETER 3
10 But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

ISAIAH 34
8 For it is the DAY OF THE LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Zec 14v1 Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

You see that the anger of the lord is kindled and poured out in protection of jerusalam, on the day of the lord.

warhorse,

Why did you take Isaiah 13 out of context. You started with vs 6, but if you go back to chapter 12 or even the beginning of chapter 13, you will see that the prophecy you mentioned was able national Babylon, NOT the entire world. And furthermore, chapter 14 talks about Babylon's ruler and how he that sat on Babylon's throne would be brought low. Nowhere in the context does Isaiah place the events mentioned in chapter 13 with what Jesus described in Matthew 24.

The bottom line is that the Lord's Day or Day of the Lord is not necessarily or even normally a reference to a happening at the end of time. The fact is that there have been many Lord's Days that have happened in the course of time. Consider these scriptural examples:

http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost.php?p=1059101920&postcount=1

 

[jasoncran]

warhorse,

Why did you take Isaiah 13 out of context. You started with vs 6, but if you go back to chapter 12 or even the beginning of chapter 13, you will see that the prophecy you mentioned was able national Babylon, NOT the entire world. And furthermore, chapter 14 talks about Babylon's ruler and how he that sat on Babylon's throne would be brought low. Nowhere in the context does Isaiah place the events mentioned in chapter 13 with what Jesus described in Matthew 24.

The bottom line is that the Lord's Day or Day of the Lord is not necessarily or even normally a reference to a happening at the end of time. The fact is that there have been many Lord's Days that have happened in the course of time. Consider these scriptural examples:

David Icke's Official Forums - View Single Post - What is the day of the Lord?

you posted a link to the man that believes in lizards????

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

you posted a link to the man that believes in lizards????

The post and the poster however are NOT lizard advocates and what is posted is true and scriptural so I could care less about what David Icke believes. Judge the content of the post bases on its merit rather than leting the website it's founnd on derail the focus.

 

[warhorse]

warhorse,

Why did you take Isaiah 13 out of context. You started with vs 6, but if you go back to chapter 12 or even the beginning of chapter 13, you will see that the prophecy you mentioned was able national Babylon, NOT the entire world. And furthermore, chapter 14 talks about Babylon's ruler and how he that sat on Babylon's throne would be brought low. Nowhere in the context does Isaiah place the events mentioned in chapter 13 with what Jesus described in Matthew 24.

The bottom line is that the Lord's Day or Day of the Lord is not necessarily or even normally a reference to a happening at the end of time. The fact is that there have been many Lord's Days that have happened in the course of time. Consider these scriptural examples:

David Icke's Official Forums - View Single Post - What is the day of the Lord?

Bunk

 

[Sam21]

Let's clear some things up. First of all, Jesus' called out congregation that had been sealed with God's Holy Breath as well as perhaps the martyred prophets of old mentioned in Matthew 23 were to be the ones that would be gathered with Jesus according to scripture.
I want to be clear with this next point. THE INSTITUTION THAT WE CALL THE CHURCH IS NOT THE SAME AS JESUS' CALLED OUT CONGREGATION!
Now, to address the issue of the new Heaven and new Earth or should I say new sky and new land "wherein dwelleth righteousness". That has not yet come to pass and I believe that is an obvious thing we can agree on. Where we but heads is on the idea that the new land and sky were to be established when Jesus came back in judgment and for his elect. I contend that the new land and sky will not be a reality until the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven is established on this Earth after death and the grave have met their perminent demise. I also contend that that event happening does NOT coincide with what Jesus said of his "soon" return nearly 2000 years ago.

You couldn't be more wrong and I hope you are not lost because of what you believe. The same indwelling Holy Spirit that made Peter,James,John, and Paul disciples is the same indwelling Holy Spirit that indwells myself and all others who are children of God by the born again experience. We have the same thing that the first church had because we are all part of that church. God is still saving people today just as God did in the first century.

 

[warhorse]

You couldn't be more wrong and I hope you are not lost because of what you believe. The same indwelling Holy Spirit that made Peter,James,John, and Paul disciples is the same indwelling Holy Spirit that indwells myself and all others who are children of God by the born again experience. We have the same thing that the first church had because we are all part of that church. God is still saving people today just as God did in the first century.

AMEN !!! TO THAT SAM...

 

[Hitch]

You couldn't be more wrong and I hope you are not lost because of what you believe. The same indwelling Holy Spirit that made Peter,James,John, and Paul disciples is the same indwelling Holy Spirit that indwells myself and all others who are children of God by the born again experience. We have the same thing that the first church had because we are all part of that church. God is still saving people today just as God did in the first century.

Yup.

 

[n2thelight]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow
Some of the arguments against a 70 AD fulfillment now have simply "jumped the shark." My time is important and I'm tired of wasting it responding to the kind of nonsense people could answer for themselves if they bothered to read the Bible instead of "Left Behind."

I'm out. This thread has just gotten way too far off the rails for my taste.

Okay,let's try this one...Daniel said something that has yet to be addressed,unless I missed it.....

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Increase in knowledge,did this happen in 70AD ?

More has been discovered by science in the last 100 years than had been discovered or invented in the entire precious 6,000 years? Knowledge has been increased within the past hundred years of this Endtime almost beyond imagination!--To the point that machines have now become so complicated, even highly trained scientists and technicians can barely understand them!

Computers are now even taking over the thinking of Man and are able to perform feats of calculation and memory and computation and even thinking, far beyond the limits of Man's own mind! A man takes about 90 seconds to multiply 2 five-digit numbers. A computer can do it 30 million times as fast. The NASA Space Center in California has a computer that can make almost 13 billion complex calculations per second.

A few years ago it was estimated that the sum total of Man's knowledge was doubling every ten years! But now experts estimate that it takes less than five years for Man's store of knowledge to double! It is a known fact that more than 80% of all the scientists who have ever lived are alive today! Medical knowledge is increasing so rapidly that an estimated 70% of the medicines in use today were developed after WWII. Dr. Malcolm Todd, one-time president of the American Medical Association, said that about half of medical knowledge is outdated every 10 years.

It is estimated that over 15,000 scientific journals are being published annually and that, throughout the World, more than 1,000 new books are published every day!--Knowledge certainly has been increased!

 

[warfrog]

Okay,let's try this one...Daniel said something that has yet to be addressed,unless I missed it.....

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Increase in knowledge,did this happen in 70AD ?

More has been discovered by science in the last 100 years than had been discovered or invented in the entire precious 6,000 years? Knowledge has been increased within the past hundred years of this Endtime almost beyond imagination!--To the point that machines have now become so complicated, even highly trained scientists and technicians can barely understand them!

Computers are now even taking over the thinking of Man and are able to perform feats of calculation and memory and computation and even thinking, far beyond the limits of Man's own mind! A man takes about 90 seconds to multiply 2 five-digit numbers. A computer can do it 30 million times as fast. The NASA Space Center in California has a computer that can make almost 13 billion complex calculations per second.

A few years ago it was estimated that the sum total of Man's knowledge was doubling every ten years! But now experts estimate that it takes less than five years for Man's store of knowledge to double! It is a known fact that more than 80% of all the scientists who have ever lived are alive today! Medical knowledge is increasing so rapidly that an estimated 70% of the medicines in use today were developed after WWII. Dr. Malcolm Todd, one-time president of the American Medical Association, said that about half of medical knowledge is outdated every 10 years.

It is estimated that over 15,000 scientific journals are being published annually and that, throughout the World, more than 1,000 new books are published every day!--Knowledge certainly has been increased!

Greetings,

I had always had that veiw also that those scriptures meant people traveling and knowledge in the man working perspective for the knowledge shall increase IE science/medicine/technology ext.

I do not anymore, I believe the traveling to and fro He is speaking of the O.T and the N.T and knowledge shall increase is the understanding of scripture through the grace of God.

In either case what you represented and what i have presented, it does not support a 70 A.D theory.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[n2thelight]

Greetings,

I had always had that veiw also that those scriptures meant people traveling and knowledge in the man working perspective for the knowledge shall increase IE science/medicine/technology ext.

I do not anymore, I believe the traveling to and fro He is speaking of the O.T and the N.T and knowledge shall increase is the understanding of scripture through the grace of God.

In either case what you represented and what i have presented, it does not support a 70 A.D theory.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

I thought about that view as I was posting,but the verses below came to my mind.

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

Amos 8:12 "And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and from to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."

But as you said the theory still is not supported......

 

[warfrog]

I thought about that view as I was posting,but the verses below came to my mind.

Amos 8:11 "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:"

Amos 8:12 "And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and from to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."

But as you said the theory still is not supported......

Greetings,

So then you would have to conclude that if we are near the end according to applying those scriptures to the scriptures in Daniel, we would not hear the word of the Lord, but we do.

Also, we are assured in the end that there will be saints upon the earth, even to the very return of Christ.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[n2thelight]

Greetings,

So then you would have to conclude that if we are near the end according to applying those scriptures to the scriptures in Daniel, we would not hear the word of the Lord, but we do.

Also, we are assured in the end that there will be saints upon the earth, even to the very return of Christ.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes we do hear it,but only those that have eye's to see,understand it,as we can tell just on this forum alone, more don't than do...

Reason being,per the below verse....

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should believe a lie;"

 

[warfrog]

Yes we do hear it,but only those that have eye's to see,understand it,as we can tell just on this forum alone, more don't than do...

Reason being,per the below verse....

II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion [send them a working of error], that they should believe a lie;"

Greetings,

But in that same concept wouldnt that also apply for from the O.T to the N.T and knowledge of the word of God shall increase.
Wouldnt that also apply to "but only those that have eye's to see,understand it"

"many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase"

Also the scriptures you are speaking of in 2 Thessalonians are regarding the deceptions of the man of lawlessness, according to the workings of Satan.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[n2thelight]

Greetings,

But in that same concept wouldnt that also apply for from the O.T to the N.T and knowledge of the word of God shall increase.
Wouldnt that also apply to "but only those that have eye's to see,understand it"

"many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase"

Also the scriptures you are speaking of in 2 Thessalonians are regarding the deceptions of the man of lawlessness, according to the workings of Satan.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

My opinion would be no,because,I feel more people have turned away from the Word.But at the same time I could say yes because those that seek,their eye's are opening,but I would stay with no,because that number is so small.

As for 2thes it is regarding the deception of satan,but in the verse before the one I quoted,gives the reason

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

Truth is the Word,and many don't or simply won't receive it....

It's like the quote from Jack"You can't handle the truth"...Many can't handle the truth....

 

[warfrog]

My opinion would be no,because,I feel more people have turned away from the Word.But at the same time I could say yes because those that seek,their eye's are opening,but I would stay with no,because that number is so small.

As for 2thes it is regarding the deception of satan,but in the verse before the one I quoted,gives the reason

II Thessalonians 2:10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth,"

Truth is the Word,and many don't or simply won't receive it....

It's like the quote from Jack"You can't handle the truth"...Many can't handle the truth....

I agree, but those words are also under the timetable of the man of lawlessness, which has to be revealed, indeed the workings of lawlessness are around and have been even in the time the letter was written, but that specific verse is spoken of within the timeframe of the man of lawlessness, which he has not yet been revealed.

Regardless of which it is, if it is spoken to those who hear the words it doesnt matter if that number is small or large, not only that but it has been given to all who partake in His word since before Christ even came as it is in the passages given to Daniel.

Grace to you, peace from God and the Lord Jesus Christ.