The Protestant Pope and The Passion

[Corn Pop]

Jesus said many would come in his name claiming they are anointed and would decieve many. This world is infested with deceptive teachings by people talking under Jesus name.

 

[WIP]

I admire you for posing the question and starting this thread. The reality is in Protestantism, each individual adherent is in essence his own pope. Because Protestantism has no organ, body or mechanism who can define and declare what is or is not the faith of Protestantism, it becomes entirely subjective. Each individual Protestant becomes his own determiner (and actual creator) of truth. He / she decides what is or is not the Christian faith for himself.

This is the end result of replacing the authority of the Church and trying to supplant it with sola scriptura. It simply doesn't work. We know from history that when the Protestant religions first started, they rapidly began dividing because this doctrine they built their religion around is not able to resolve any doctrinal disagreements. Thus by the end of the 16th century (the century in which the Protestant religions began), there were already over 300 different sects. Because Protestantism does not have a living authority to resolve exegetical disagreements, the fruit of this doctrine has been the continual division with the ultimate authority resting not in the Scriptures alone to decide what is or is not the faith, but rather in the subjective interpretation of the Scriptures by each individual adherent.

I concur with what you are saying here. This is one of the faults that I see in Protestantism. We are too easily tossed about by the many winds of doctrine. Even among the Lutheran denomination we have doctrinal differences between Lutheran associations as I mentioned earlier some examples.

At the same time, I have experienced problems with Catholic tradition and hierarchy. That hierarchy is of fallible humans and when leadership goes astray the rest blindly follow. Paul dealt with this in his letters to the Corinthians and Galatians for example. The Roman Catholic church today is a far cry from the Church described in the Acts of the Apostles and it is my belief that it has been corrupted over the centuries and too rigid to admit it.

There are downsides to both and I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[Walpole]

I concur with what you are saying here. This is one of the faults that I see in Protestantism. We are too easily tossed about by the many winds of doctrine. Even among the Lutheran denomination we have doctrinal differences between Lutheran associations as I mentioned earlier some examples.

I agree. But because there is no living authority in Protestantism, sadly I believe continual division is inevitable.

I do think the Lutherans have been able to withstand the shifting sands more than other denominations.

At the same time, I have experienced problems with Catholic tradition and hierarchy. That hierarchy is of fallible humans and when leadership goes astray the rest blindly follow. Paul dealt with this in his letters to the Corinthians and Galatians for example. The Roman Catholic church today is a far cry from the Church described in the Acts of the Apostles and it is my belief that it has been corrupted over the centuries and too rigid to admit it.

There are downsides to both and I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I agree here as well. Sadly the Church has been replete with sinful men.

 

[GodsGrace]

If our "Leaders" rely on their own understanding and (shudder) their "Theology", what do you expect??

God will let us dig our own graves with our "human wisdom" - and sure enough in the Institutional churches (regardless of "label") - we did. The leader of the Roman Catholic Corp. appears to be a non-Christian Universalist.

Jesus told us that we were to take HIS YOKE upon US (not the "Baptist Yoke", or the "Catholic Yoke" - HIS YOKE). And learn of HIM.

Why would God want us to dig our own graves when He was so intent on revealing Himself from the beginning with Adam and up to Jesus?

Didn't Jesus want to create God's Kingdom here on earth and teach us a way to be connected to God, spiritual, and a member of His Kingdom?
That would be a complete contradiction to God allowing us to dig our own graves...but, alas, God WILL let us do what we desire to do.

As to the Roman Catholic Corp., I also know about the:
Assembly of God Corp.
Nazarene Corp.
Lutheran Corp.
Presbytarian Corp.
Reformed Corp.
etc.

All the above churches are a franchise and have headquarters somewhere in the U.S.

Jesus said we are to take HIS yoke upon us because it is light.
Much lighter than all the laws the Jews had to follow in His time.

He also told the Apostles to go to all nations and teach them what Jesus taught and to baptize them.
To do this, eventually, it would be necessary to have an official church - which, by the way, didn't take long to establish.
By the end of the first century, a Christian church (which would be the Catholic church) was already established.
Buildings did not start to be built for worship till after 314AD (approx). when Constantine declared that Christianity was no longer
to be considered illegal, but there were church homes and they also met in secret places, one of the most famous being the catacombs in Rome.

We need both in order for Christianity to survive.
A born-again, personal relationship with God,
and a church we could attend to be with others of our faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

I concur with what you are saying here. This is one of the faults that I see in Protestantism. We are too easily tossed about by the many winds of doctrine. Even among the Lutheran denomination we have doctrinal differences between Lutheran associations as I mentioned earlier some examples.

At the same time, I have experienced problems with Catholic tradition and hierarchy. That hierarchy is of fallible humans and when leadership goes astray the rest blindly follow. Paul dealt with this in his letters to the Corinthians and Galatians for example. The Roman Catholic church today is a far cry from the Church described in the Acts of the Apostles and it is my belief that it has been corrupted over the centuries and too rigid to admit it.

There are downsides to both and I believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I agree WIP.
But I don't know where the middle is.
Some persons just stop going to church altogether because they have a problem "finding the right one".
I also find all these denominations to be distressing.
At first I thought it was a good idea because it freed persons up to attend a church whose doctrine they agreed with.
As you know, the CC requires a person to believe every dogma.....
At least 3 priests I can think of off-hand know that I don't agree with every Catholic dogma and they still seem to be OK
with me and they don't try to change me...of course, they tell me to pray about it which is the procedure,,,but it's been many years not and I doubt I'll be changing - but who knows!

I was listening to a Catholic priest on YouTube yesterday and he clearly said that behaving nicely is not enough....
we must have an encounter with Jesus and we must have faith in HIM.
Yes, things are changing...

 

[GodsGrace]

So many put their trust in what mere men ( that are in positions of Church authority ) tell them without making sure what they are being told is what the Word of God actually says . If you are being preached to and the preacher does NOT give you the chapter and verse he is working from , beware !

“For as much as this people draw near Me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the precept of men” (Isaiah 29:13).

The problem is not with The Holy Spirit but the problem is with man ! Because as we know in this verse .

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/13-8.htm

Agreed.
Man has caused many problems within the church.
Men that do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling...or are even influenced by the Holy Spirit -
or they would not have done what they did.ù
Isaiah 29:13 --- perfect.
Thanks for posting it.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why would God want us to dig our own graves when He was so intent on revealing Himself from the beginning with Adam and up to Jesus?

You changed what I said, of course. God doesn't WANT us to perish. But if it's our WILL to refuse Him, he'll let us.

God WILL let us do what we desire to do.

So we agree.

As to the Roman Catholic Corp., I also know about the:
Assembly of God Corp.
Nazarene Corp.
Lutheran Corp.
Presbytarian Corp.
Reformed Corp.
etc.

All the above churches are a franchise and have headquarters somewhere in the U.S.

Agreed. I've been a member in Good standing of the Assemblies of God Corp. (HQ in Springfield Missouri) for most of the last 55 years. However, as a "Charismatic Calvinist Leaning Eclectic", the AG doesn't "Define me or my theological beliefs". All they provide is a building to gather with other Christians, and hear good Bible teaching (and "Soft Rock" 7-11 music these days unfortunately).

By the end of the first century, a Christian church (which would be the Catholic church) was already established.

AND already starting to fragment and denominationalize under false teachers and false prophets.

We need both in order for Christianity to survive.
A born-again, personal relationship with God,
and a church we could attend to be with others of our faith.

Agreed - it ALL STARTS with being BORN AGAIN, in the '70s in the U.S. when the Charismatic outpouring rolled across the world, the CHURCH tended to meet in Hotels, and "Denominational theologies" became VERY unimportant.

 

[GodsGrace]

You changed what I said, of course. God doesn't WANT us to perish. But if it's our WILL to refuse Him, he'll let us.

So we agree.

Agreed. I've been a member in Good standing of the Assemblies of God Corp. (HQ in Springfield Missouri) for most of the last 55 years. However, as a "Charismatic Calvinist Leaning Eclectic", the AG doesn't "Define me or my theological beliefs". All they provide is a building to gather with other Christians, and hear good Bible teaching (and "Soft Rock" 7-11 music these days unfortunately).

AND already starting to fragment and denominationalize under false teachers and false prophets.


Agreed - it ALL STARTS with being BORN AGAIN, in the '70s in the U.S. when the Charismatic outpouring rolled across the world, the CHURCH tended to meet in Hotels, and "Denominational theologies" became VERY unimportant.

Hey BC,,,
I don't usually change what persons say...but I'm too tired to check it out.
If I did, I apologize.
Will run through the post tomorrow morning.
Interesting convo.

 

[Corn Pop]

What is the need and reason for baptism for those who believe it is a must?. Im not baptised but i might one day as i dont see anything wrong with it, and it is biblical so why not get dunked in water as a sign the past is the past and i can start my life fresh again. I might feel less of a sinner. I might get baptised every week, maybe every day.

 

[daninthelionsden]

What about everybody else?
What about Christianity in general?

In the early days of the Church, the Apostles travelled many miles on foot to stamp out spiritual fires (false teachings). Today false teaching spread rapidly around the world like spiritual wildfires. I think it will take spirit led and theologically sound individuals walking virtual miles to the sources of these false teachings and confronting them. We are already experiencing State approved churches/denominations spreading the latest politically correct teachings with government/corporate/media approval. Those who are led must ACTIVELY confront these perveyers of iniquity as if they were like Paul or Peter standing before the Romans/Greeks/Jews or whomever spreads this sickness sweeping across the planet.

 

[daninthelionsden]

I admire you for posing the question and starting this thread. The reality is in Protestantism, each individual adherent is in essence his own pope. Because Protestantism has no organ, body or mechanism who can define and declare what is or is not the faith of Protestantism, it becomes entirely subjective. Each individual Protestant becomes his own determiner (and actual creator) of truth. He / she decides what is or is not the Christian faith for himself.

This is the end result of replacing the authority of the Church and trying to supplant it with sola scriptura. It simply doesn't work. We know from history that when the Protestant religions first started, they rapidly began dividing because this doctrine they built their religion around is not able to resolve any doctrinal disagreements. Thus by the end of the 16th century (the century in which the Protestant religions began), there were already over 300 different sects. Because Protestantism does not have a living authority to resolve exegetical disagreements, the fruit of this doctrine has been the continual division with the ultimate authority resting not in the Scriptures alone to decide what is or is not the faith, but rather in the subjective interpretation of the Scriptures by each individual adherent.

I think, ultimately, there will be a State approved protestant "Pope".

 

[Corn Pop]

If i got the scriptures and in the scriptures is all the teachings then i dont really need a pope or some religious leader with authrority over me. They are all in the scriptures. Original teachers like Jesus and Paul, i could just learn from them directly. If i have a question i could ask any christian who studies the scriptures and see what they think. I cant just ring the pope.

 

[Corn Pop]

I should write the pope and see if i get a reply. Just to say hi and let him know hes welcome to visit and can come over for dinner one day if he likes.

 

[GodsGrace]

You changed what I said, of course. God doesn't WANT us to perish. But if it's our WILL to refuse Him, he'll let us.

Hi Bob,
Here's what you said in post 38:

God will let us dig our own graves with our "human wisdom" - and sure enough in the Institutional churches (regardless of "label") - we did. The leader of the Roman Catholic Corp. appears to be a non-Christian Universalist.

Here's what I replied in post 44:

Why would God want us to dig our own graves when He was so intent on revealing Himself from the beginning with Adam and up to Jesus?

You said that I changed what you said --- OF COURSE.
Why OF COURSE? I don't have the habit of doing this.

You said that God will let us dig our own graves with our human wisdom and that this has happened in the institutional churches.
First...what other type of churches are there?
And again, why would God want us to dig our own graves?
Didn't Jesus WANT these churches?

I understand the difference between God WANTING
and God LETTING (allowing)....

But it just seems to me that God would want institutional churches to do well.
It seems to me that MEN have always created problems within the church.

Agreed. I've been a member in Good standing of the Assemblies of God Corp. (HQ in Springfield Missouri) for most of the last 55 years. However, as a "Charismatic Calvinist Leaning Eclectic", the AG doesn't "Define me or my theological beliefs". All they provide is a building to gather with other Christians, and hear good Bible teaching (and "Soft Rock" 7-11 music these days unfortunately).

The Assembly of God church is calvinist leaning?
Since when??
I like the AG church.

I feel like I'd have to agree with the doctrine of any church I attend....not all of it, every church will have some doctrine a person will not agree with...
but at least almost all of it. You don't agree?

AND already starting to fragment and denominationalize under false teachers and false prophets.

The early church held together. It did not fragment.
There were sects that had their own belief system, but they were not part of the church that the Apostles began.
In fact, I'd say that the church forbid heresy and kept the original faith that was taught by the Apostles.
This did change with time --- I mean hundreds of years later changes began to be made WITHIN the church.

Agreed - it ALL STARTS with being BORN AGAIN, in the '70s in the U.S. when the Charismatic outpouring rolled across the world, the CHURCH tended to meet in Hotels, and "Denominational theologies" became VERY unimportant.

I don't know about this and it's before I was interested in "religion".
Thanks for the info.

 

[GodsGrace]

If i got the scriptures and in the scriptures is all the teachings then i dont really need a pope or some religious leader with authrority over me. They are all in the scriptures. Original teachers like Jesus and Paul, i could just learn from them directly. If i have a question i could ask any christian who studies the scriptures and see what they think. I cant just ring the pope.

What if your Christian friend thinks wrong?
Did you learn math by yourself?
History?
Accounting?
etc.

Teachers are good Kiwidan.
I used to go to a couple of bible studies but covid stopped that.
I really miss it.

 

[GodsGrace]

What is the need and reason for baptism for those who believe it is a must?. Im not baptised but i might one day as i dont see anything wrong with it, and it is biblical so why not get dunked in water as a sign the past is the past and i can start my life fresh again. I might feel less of a sinner. I might get baptised every week, maybe every day.

I can understand what you're saying.
But I'd have to ask WHY did Jesus say to be baptized?
HE was baptized so as to do everything the right way...
that means that being baptized is the right way.
Jesus told the Apostles to baptize in His name....
Why?

 

[GodsGrace]

I should write the pope and see if i get a reply. Just to say hi and let him know hes welcome to visit and can come over for dinner one day if he likes.

Let me know what he says.
He lives pretty close to me, maybe I'll invite him too.
I have a couple of bones to pick with him and he's just about 3 hours away!!

 

[GodsGrace]

In the early days of the Church, the Apostles travelled many miles on foot to stamp out spiritual fires (false teachings). Today false teaching spread rapidly around the world like spiritual wildfires. I think it will take spirit led and theologically sound individuals walking virtual miles to the sources of these false teachings and confronting them. We are already experiencing State approved churches/denominations spreading the latest politically correct teachings with government/corporate/media approval. Those who are led must ACTIVELY confront these perveyers of iniquity as if they were like Paul or Peter standing before the Romans/Greeks/Jews or whomever spreads this sickness sweeping across the planet.

Amen to that!

Someone should explain about STATE APPROVED CHURCHES.
I've never heard of this and it sounds really scary.

 

[Corn Pop]

What if your Christian friend thinks wrong?
Did you learn math by yourself?
History?
Accounting?
etc.

Teachers are good Kiwidan.
I used to go to a couple of bible studies but covid stopped that.
I really miss it.

The same could be said about any religious teachers. The difference is you can discuss scripture with the regular christian who studies there bible as with religious teachers its a bit harder to find time to spend with them to discuss. As i said if i would like to question something i cant just raise my hand in a church or ring the pope.

How many people get the opportunity to question maybe even correct there teachers?. Everyone has the same bible. The thing with many teachers is they think they cannot be corrected because they are the teacher. Some probably even get offended they dont like there authority being questioned.

 

[GodsGrace]

The same could be said about any religious teachers. The difference is you can discuss scripture with the regular christian who studies there bible as with religious teachers its a bit harder to find time to spend with them to discuss. As i said if i would like to question something i cant just raise my hand in a church or ring the pope.

How many people get the opportunity to question maybe even correct there teachers?.

I guess you're right.
I might be lucky in this sense.
I have plenty of sources whose brains I could pick.
And they're all accessible to me.