Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The RAPTURE . . . at the end of the Trib.

Israel suffered the first 3 plagues along with Egypt.
Re: the first plague in Ex 7:18 and 21 only say that the Eygptians will not be able to drink the water. Nothing about Israel.

Re: the second plague in Ex 8:3 and 4 specifically says that the frogs will "come upon your people" (referring to Egyptians), including the officials. Nothing about Israel.

Re: the third plague in Ex 8 there is no mention of either Egyptians or Israelites, just that gnats were everywhere in the land.

My view is that the "land of Goshen" was unfavorable to the Egyptians, who "loathed" shepherds, per Gen 46:43. The plagues specifically targeted the Egyptians.

I see no reason to assume that Israel was affected by any of the plagues. But if you find any solid evidence for that, please share.
 
Re: the first plague in Ex 7:18 and 21 only say that the Eygptians will not be able to drink the water. Nothing about Israel.

Re: the second plague in Ex 8:3 and 4 specifically says that the frogs will "come upon your people" (referring to Egyptians), including the officials. Nothing about Israel.

Re: the third plague in Ex 8 there is no mention of either Egyptians or Israelites, just that gnats were everywhere in the land.

My view is that the "land of Goshen" was unfavorable to the Egyptians, who "loathed" shepherds, per Gen 46:43. The plagues specifically targeted the Egyptians.

I see no reason to assume that Israel was affected by any of the plagues. But if you find any solid evidence for that, please share.


Now when we say that Israel was not harmed of the plagues which came upon Egyptians, it's because they were staying in a separate place and we understand that that place weren't affected by plagues upon Israel. Now the church is spread all over the world and we are among non-believers then if God doesn't want to touch the church then he must keep them separate.

Now by this logic can't rapture be possible before the tribulation period??
 
Now when we say that Israel was not harmed of the plagues which came upon Egyptians, it's because they were staying in a separate place and we understand that that place weren't affected by plagues upon Israel. Now the church is spread all over the world and we are among non-believers then if God doesn't want to touch the church then he must keep them separate.

Now by this logic can't rapture be possible before the tribulation period??
I won't say that is the silliest thing I have ever read, but it is way ahead of whatever is in second place.
 
Now when we say that Israel was not harmed of the plagues which came upon Egyptians, it's because they were staying in a separate place and we understand that that place weren't affected by plagues upon Israel. Now the church is spread all over the world and we are among non-believers then if God doesn't want to touch the church then he must keep them separate.

Now by this logic can't rapture be possible before the tribulation period??
Please don't suggest that God isn't fully able and capable of keeping His wrath away from His obedient children??

He doesn't have to keep anyone away from anyone else. He can direct a lightning bolt to a single person in a crowd without hurting anyone else.
 
Now by this logic can't rapture be possible before the tribulation period??
You have a very good point, which is not being acknoweldged, but is fully supported by Scripture (1 Thess 5:9):

"For God HATH NOT APPOINTED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation [or deliverance] by our Lord Jesus Christ".

The wrath of God is reserved for those who "obey not the Gospel" (2 Thess 1:5-10) and are enemies of God and of Christ. But Christians are appointed to salvation or deliverance from "the wrath to come" (1 Thess 1:10).
 
they that were in Goshen and also the Egyptians whom feared the lord as those did have the blood of the first peshac on their doors were spared.
 
Please don't suggest that God isn't fully able and capable of keeping His wrath away from His obedient children??

He doesn't have to keep anyone away from anyone else. He can direct a lightning bolt to a single person in a crowd without hurting anyone else.

I don't think that is possible. If the work of God is literally manifested then the work of the devil will not advance. if an un-believer is struck and believer is spared (in the same place where thy are living together) then the fear of God will come upon every mankind and all will start immediately believing in Jesus then the work of Satan can't continue. We read in the scriptures that there will be a rule of anti-christ and that can't happen without the support of un-believers.
 
Re: the first plague in Ex 7:18 and 21 only say that the Eygptians will not be able to drink the water. Nothing about Israel.

Re: the second plague in Ex 8:3 and 4 specifically says that the frogs will "come upon your people" (referring to Egyptians), including the officials. Nothing about Israel.

Re: the third plague in Ex 8 there is no mention of either Egyptians or Israelites, just that gnats were everywhere in the land.

My view is that the "land of Goshen" was unfavorable to the Egyptians, who "loathed" shepherds, per Gen 46:43. The plagues specifically targeted the Egyptians.

I see no reason to assume that Israel was affected by any of the plagues. But if you find any solid evidence for that, please share.
Exodus 8:20-23

And the Lord said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Let my people go, that they may serve me. Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses:and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are. And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the Lord in the midst of the earth. And I will put a division between my people and thy people:to morrow shall this sign be.

It wasn't until the 4th plague when God severed and put a division between Israel and Egypt, everything before that, both suffered the plagues.
 
I said this:
Please don't suggest that God isn't fully able and capable of keeping His wrath away from His obedient children??

He doesn't have to keep anyone away from anyone else. He can direct a lightning bolt to a single person in a crowd without hurting anyone else.

I don't think that is possible.
Why don't you think it is possible for God to hit a person in a crowd with a lightning bolt without hurting anyone else? Don't you believe that God is omnipotent?

If the work of God is literally manifested then the work of the devil will not advance.
What does this mean? God has allowed satan to advance his program. Yet, we see God's work manifested throughout history.

if an un-believer is struck and believer is spared (in the same place where thy are living together) then the fear of God will come upon every mankind and all will start immediately believing in Jesus then the work of Satan can't continue.
This is rather naive. Jesus, the God-man, perfomed miracles and the Jews rejected all of them. God parted the Red Sea, allowing all the Jews to pass, but "baptized" (immersed) all the Egyptian army, yet how many of the rest of the Egyptian people turned to the Lord?

We read in the scriptures that there will be a rule of anti-christ and that can't happen without the support of un-believers.
So? What is your point? I have no idea where you're going with this.
 
Exodus 8:20-23

And the Lord said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Let my people go, that they may serve me. Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses:and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are. And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the Lord in the midst of the earth. And I will put a division between my people and thy people:to morrow shall this sign be.

It wasn't until the 4th plague when God severed and put a division between Israel and Egypt, everything before that, both suffered the plagues.
You haven't proven your claim about the first 3 plagues. I covered each one and there is no evidence that the Jews suffered those plagues.
 
Why does God only allow a third of things to be destroyed in Revelations Chapter 8-11 during the seven trumpet sounds? The answer is, because the Church (body of Christ) is the other two thirds that are still here, whether alive or asleep in the grave. All these chastisements or Gods warnings from Revelation Chapter 8 up to Chapter 14 are to make the earth purified and to give all a chance to repent and come back to God before that of Christ return. Purification of the earth has to be made in order for the new heaven and new earth in order for the New Jerusalem, which is the Kingdom of God here on earth where we will have eternal life with the Father as we reign with Christ when He takes His Throne. We are not to fear that which will come from Gods chastisements which will be hard for us to bare to see, but pray for courage and fortitude to deal with Gods warnings as we continue in being that of the two witnesses of Revelations Chapter 11, which are God and the Holy Spirit working through us as we preach the word during this time for 1260 days (3 1/2 years) clothed in that which surrounds us that will be hard to bare to watch as in wearing sackcloth.

John compares the two witnesses to the two candlesticks and two olive trees, which if you read Zechariah Chapter 4 it explains that the golden candlestick is God. The seven lamps with the seven pipes that holds the oil (anointing), which is that of the seven Spirits of God: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and Spirit of the Lord. Satan has always tried to shut the word down and thought he did so when Christ was crucified, but in three days the word (Jesus) was made live again and made known to the Disciples first and then to the world through the commission he gave in Matthew 28:18-20 to not only the Disciples, but all of us as we witness Christ to others through His word as being His Church.

Rev 7 speaks of the 144,000 taken from the twelve tribes of the house of Israel. These are the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matthew 10:6, who were scattered abroad in the Northern parts that the Disciples were told to go preach to. They and their generations that are still alive at this time of Gods chastisement God sets a seal on them, Revelation 7:1-3 to protect them from the third of everything that is about to be destroyed by Gods chastisements that are handed down by the angels. Jews and Gentiles, whom we being Gentile are sealed also, that will be preaching together will be like Paul and Peter as Paul was to teach the Gentiles and Peter to teach the Jews about Christ, Matthew 10:5-7; Acts 22.

These chastisements, or Gods warning that will be 1260 days=3 1/2 years will escalate as sin continues to surge as each trumpet that sounds will be worse than the other up to the seventh trumpet that is the worst one of all that ushers in the great and terrible day of the Lord, which is the return of Christ, 1Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 1:7. The reason it is called the great and terrible day of the Lord is because that of a continued chastisement after the seventh trumpet sounds that includes that of Revelation Chapter 12-14 where we the body of Christ are still here until that of Chapter 14 when at that time Christ returns in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the harvest for it is now ripe and every eye will see him, saint and sinner, and every knee will bow, saint and sinner, but for some it will be to late even if their knee bows as Christ has now returned in the clouds and within a twinkling of an eye the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we who are alive in Christ will gather together with them who slept as we are now given our glorified bodies to meet Jesus in the clouds and will evermore have eternal life with the Father.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Many will not have eternal life with the Father as they will stand in Gods great white throne judgment, Revelation 20:11-15, where their names are not found written in the Lambs book of life. They rejected Christ that was preached to them and will be cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and the false prophet as they refused to accept the preaching of Christ done by the two witnesses, God and the Holy Spirit speaking through the Church (body of Christ) that are witnessing/preaching Christ to them. They have taken the mark of the beast as they have bowed down to the antichrist one world religious, economical and political system that Satan gave the beast its power, seat and great authority, Revelation 13.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
I said this:
There are 2 events of reaping:
1. Reaping of the Wheat: "And the One sitting on the cloud thrust His sickle onto [επι - over] the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Rev 14:16LITV). επι [over] seems to match up with Christians meeting the LORD in the air, as opposed to εις [into] in Rev 14:19.

2. Culling of the Tares: "And the angel thrust his sickle into [εις - into] the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw into the winepress of the great anger of God." (Rev 14:19 LITV)

and you relplied:
Sorry, I'm just not seeing how these verses indicate a post rapture event.

Pardon my late answer. The reaping of wheat in Rev 14:16 does occur at the rapture; it is the Rapture where we meet the LORD in the air over the earth.

The culling of tares in the Gospels, and the reaping of the vines in Rev 14:19 occur after the Rapture; a post Rapture event on the 10th day [the Day of Atonement] of the same month of the Rapture, the Rapture having occurred on the first day of that month [Feast of Trumpets].

If I have indicated anything contradictory to this post, please show me where.
 
I said this:
There are 2 events of reaping:
1. Reaping of the Wheat: "And the One sitting on the cloud thrust His sickle onto [επι - over] the earth, and the earth was reaped." (Rev 14:16LITV). επι [over] seems to match up with Christians meeting the LORD in the air, as opposed to εις [into] in Rev 14:19.

2. Culling of the Tares: "And the angel thrust his sickle into [εις - into] the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw into the winepress of the great anger of God." (Rev 14:19 LITV)

and you relplied:


Pardon my late answer. The reaping of wheat in Rev 14:16 does occur at the rapture; it is the Rapture where we meet the LORD in the air over the earth.

The culling of tares in the Gospels, and the reaping of the vines in Rev 14:19 occur after the Rapture; a post Rapture event on the 10th day [the Day of Atonement] of the same month of the Rapture, the Rapture having occurred on the first day of that month [Feast of Trumpets].

If I have indicated anything contradictory to this post, please show me where.
What I'm having trouble with are your statements, such as: "the Rapture having occurred on the first day of the that month (feast of trumpets). How do you know that? Or the reaping of wheat occurring at the rapture. How do you connect these events with the rapture?
 
What I'm having trouble with are your statements, such as: "the Rapture having occurred on the first day of the that month (feast of trumpets). How do you know that? Or the reaping of wheat occurring at the rapture. How do you connect these events with the rapture?
The Feast of Trumpets always occurs on the 1st day of the seventh month of each Hebrew year. I believe the Rapture of the Church occurs on that day, on the Feast of Trumpets, as I believe that Feast foretells Christ's Rapture of the Church. Do you disagree with anything I've said in this post?
 
What I'm having trouble with are your statements, such as: "the Rapture having occurred on the first day of the that month (feast of trumpets). How do you know that?
You are asking 'How do I know that?' I want to offer the following in support of the Rapture occurring on a Feast of Trumpets.

"Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." (Dan 8:13-14 KJV)

In Daniel's vision he was told that the "vision about the regular sacrifice . . . while the transgression causes horror", referring in part to Antiochus' desecration of the temple, would last for "2300 evenings and mornings" (Dan 8:14 NASB). Regarding these 2300 days Daniel is told that the abomination that makes the temple desolate will last 1290 days (Dan 12:11; Josephus confirms the 1290 days of desecration in one of His books, Josephus Antiquities XII: 5, 4); which leaves 1010 [2300-1290] days of the 2300 days yet to be fulfilled, which was hinted at as occurring "many days in the future" (Dan 8:26). Daniel is told that a portion of those many days will take place in the distant future in the 70th and last week of 70 weeks (Dan 9:24) of prophecy regarding the finishing of the transgression, making an end of sin, and making atonement for iniquity.

Where the first abomination that makes desolate refers to that of Antiochus before the time of the Messiah (Dan 9:26), a second abomination takes place in the middle of that 70th week after the First Coming of the Messiah and shortly before His Second Coming, "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate" (Dan 9:27). This second abomination by the final antichrist lasts [I think?] for a period of 1010 days which is the remainder of the 2300 days yet to be fulfilled.

Perhaps the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week begins after the Passover of 2015. For instance in year 2015, if those 1010 days begin [inclusive of] Sunday December 06 of 2015 [the anniversary of the restoration of the temple the day after Antiochus's abomination ended] that time period of 1010 days would end on a Feast of Trumpets, Monday September 10, 2018; that is the Feast celebrating Christ's Rapture of the Church to Himself; that is also, His removal of the saints from the antichrist's abomination and desecration of God's temple [Christ and His body the Church]; so completing the 2300 days spoken of to Daniel.

This is one reason why I think the Rapture will occur at the end of the Tribulation and on a Feast of Trumpets.
 
The Feast of Trumpets always occurs on the 1st day of the seventh month of each Hebrew year. I believe the Rapture of the Church occurs on that day, on the Feast of Trumpets, as I believe that Feast foretells Christ's Rapture of the Church. Do you disagree with anything I've said in this post?
My question is where you base your view. iow, what is it about the feast of trumpets that foretells the rapture? Everything after Christ's death until the Tribulation was unknown to OT writers, so why would anything related to Jewish feasts speak of something that wasn't prophesied or taught in the OT?

I do see the link between the feast of trumpets and the "last trump" of 1 Cor 15. But I believe the last trump occurs after the 7th trumpet of judgment in Revelation. That makes sense to me.

Oops. Just read your next post, which provides an explanation for your view. Thanks.
 
You are asking 'How do I know that?' I want to offer the following in support of the Rapture occurring on a Feast of Trumpets.

"Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." (Dan 8:13-14 KJV)

In Daniel's vision he was told that the "vision about the regular sacrifice . . . while the transgression causes horror", referring in part to Antiochus' desecration of the temple, would last for "2300 evenings and mornings" (Dan 8:14 NASB). Regarding these 2300 days Daniel is told that the abomination that makes the temple desolate will last 1290 days (Dan 12:11; Josephus confirms the 1290 days of desecration in one of His books, Josephus Antiquities XII: 5, 4); which leaves 1010 [2300-1290] days of the 2300 days yet to be fulfilled, which was hinted at as occurring "many days in the future" (Dan 8:26). Daniel is told that a portion of those many days will take place in the distant future in the 70th and last week of 70 weeks (Dan 9:24) of prophecy regarding the finishing of the transgression, making an end of sin, and making atonement for iniquity.

Where the first abomination that makes desolate refers to that of Antiochus before the time of the Messiah (Dan 9:26), a second abomination takes place in the middle of that 70th week after the First Coming of the Messiah and shortly before His Second Coming, "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate" (Dan 9:27). This second abomination by the final antichrist lasts [I think?] for a period of 1010 days which is the remainder of the 2300 days yet to be fulfilled.

Perhaps the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th week begins after the Passover of 2015. For instance in year 2015, if those 1010 days begin [inclusive of] Sunday December 06 of 2015 [the anniversary of the restoration of the temple the day after Antiochus's abomination ended] that time period of 1010 days would end on a Feast of Trumpets, Monday September 10, 2018; that is the Feast celebrating Christ's Rapture of the Church to Himself; that is also, His removal of the saints from the antichrist's abomination and desecration of God's temple [Christ and His body the Church]; so completing the 2300 days spoken of to Daniel.

This is one reason why I think the Rapture will occur at the end of the Tribulation and on a Feast of Trumpets.
Wow, you're really done your homework, Gregg! So, you think we're already in the 7 year period of the Tribulation, then. When do you think Israel will rebuild the temple? And when, specifically, do you see the abomination of desolation by the antichrist; Dec 6, 15?

If your dates are correct, then the 2 witnesses will begin their ministry in 2015. Cool. But the 3 sets of God's wrath will also begin next year.

Did your research include any of the these blood moons? Thanks.
 
My question is where you base your view. iow, what is it about the feast of trumpets that foretells the rapture?

I base that view upon many Scriptures, one being the reference to the 2300 days in post #75. The timing of end time events as I understand them 'seems' to support my view. When I contemplate those events, I consider several time periods mentioned in the Scriptures, such as:
- two time periods both of which last 3-1/2 years, and total 7 years.
1st. 3-1/2 years: "And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half;" (Dan 12:7 a KJV).

2nd. 3-1/2 years: "and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished." (Dan 12:7 b KJV).
I understand the beginning of this second period [a continuation of the first 3-1/2 years totaling 7 years] is described in Rev 10 also by an angel clothed in linen who lifts only one hand to heaven [not both his right and left as the angel in Dan 12], "And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer" (Rev 10:5-6 KJV). This second 3-1/2 years is allude to in Rev 12:14 where the LORD provides for a segment of the Church in a wilderness, "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."
- a time period of 42 months: Rev 11:2 and Rev 13:5 culminating the month of the Rapture, Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles
- two time periods of 1260 days of the same length but offset from one another by 3-1/2 days
1. [Rev 11:3] beginning and ending 3-1/2 days before the Feast of Trumpets
2. [Rev 12:6] ending on the Feast of Trumpets.​

Everything after Christ's death until the Tribulation was unknown to OT writers, so why would anything related to Jewish feasts speak of something that wasn't prophesied or taught in the OT?

Rather, everything from Christ's death until the Trib. was not understood by all of the OT saints. For instance, the destruction of the physical Temple when Rome sacked Jerusalem occurred between Christ's death and the last 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation. That event was know to OT writers, but not understood by all of the OT saints.
 
Exodus 8:20-23

And the Lord said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Let my people go, that they may serve me. Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses:and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are. And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the Lord in the midst of the earth. And I will put a division between my people and thy people:to morrow shall this sign be.

It wasn't until the 4th plague when God severed and put a division between Israel and Egypt, everything before that, both suffered the plagues.

There is no evidence that Israel also suffered plagues upon Israel because the people of Israel were already not happy with Moses and if something like first four plagues were on Israel too then surely they would have complained to Moses about this. Because we see that in the wilderness, the people of Israel had lots of complaints for even small things. So first four plagues on the people of Israel is not in line with the scriptures.
 
Wow, you're really done your homework, Gregg! So, you think we're already in the 7 year period of the Tribulation, then. When do you think Israel will rebuild the temple? And when, specifically, do you see the abomination of desolation by the antichrist; Dec 6, 15?

I think we are about to enter into the last 3-1/2 years of the Tribulation. Whether or not Daniel's 70th week of years [the final week of 7 years] are contiguous years, I am not sure. Perhaps the first 3-1/2 years of that week occurred during Christ's public ministry [having begun after a Feast of Booths] and having culminated at His Resurrection [after 'the' Passover, a 3-1/2 year period]; to resume at a future Passover anniversary and culminate on or near 'the' Feast of Booths [from a Passover to the Feast of Booths, another 3-1/2 year period together totaling 7 years].

If your dates are correct, then the 2 witnesses will begin their ministry in 2015. Cool. But the 3 sets of God's wrath will also begin next year.
I am not tendering a prediction of dates, only suggesting those dates as a possibility.

Are you identifying the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowls as the 3 sets of God's wrath?

Did your research include any of the these blood moons? Thanks.
I've heard people mention a blood moon, or blood moons. What is a blood moon?

A total lunar eclipse occurs on Saturday April 4, 2015, a Passover Anniversary.

There are 2 total lunar eclipses in 2018, one in January and the other on July.

There is a full moon over Israel on the Feast of Trumpets of 2018, on the evening which ends Sunday September 09, 2018 and begins Monday September 10, 2018.
 
Back
Top