The rapture keeps coming back

[JLB]

Absolutely. The last trump (the trump of God) is for the Church, and when the Church is complete, the last trump will summon the Church to Heaven, but Christ Himself shall descend and ascend back with the Church.

No offense brother, but... This is not what the scripture says at all.


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

How plain these words are if you just read them, don't you agree?


Surly you understand that this event is Jesus coming from Heaven with His saints, to gather those who are alive and remain on earth, together with those who have died.

These are all gathered together unto Him, and will be with Him forever. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

This event is called the day of the Lord, in which He will destroy the wicked and cleanse the earth.

His feet will stand upon the mount of Olives, on earth.

The mount of Olives is not in Heaven, but in Jerusalem, which is exactly where He is headed with His saints who are coming with Him from Heaven to earth.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

This is called the Day of the Lord, which is exactly what Paul is describing.


JLB

 

[Malachi]

No offense brother, but... This is not what the scripture says at all.

First you say that "that is not what the scripture says at all" but then you quote the passage which says exactly that! Amazing. So let's take a look again.
JESUS DESCENDS -- For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout,
JESUS ASCENDS -- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Surely you understand that this event is Jesus coming from Heaven with His saints,

We need to interpret this properly. The souls and spirits of those who died are with Christ at present. Their bodies are in their graves. Therefore Jesus brings all these saints (souls and spirits) with Him so that they can be re-united with their bodies, experience the resurrection, receive glorified bodies, and return with Christ to Heaven. At the same time the saints who are alive at that time are transformed and also receive glorified bodies.

 

[Malachi]

This is called the Day of the Lord, which is exactly what Paul is describing.

How can this be the Day of the LORD? Do you know what the Day of the LORD brings? It has absolutely no connection to the salvation of the saints, because it is a time of judgement and wrath. "Who can abide it?" means that all God's enemies will be destroyed during that period.

Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? (Joel 2:1,2,10,11).

 

[JLB]

How can this be the Day of the LORD? Do you know what the Day of the LORD brings?

Yes. It brings the Lord Jesus Christ back to earth, to take vengeance upon the wicked.

It's exactly what Paul teaches us in his first and second letters to the Thessalonians.

Everywhere the word "coming" is used, it refers to the Day of the Lord, in which He will return from heaven with His saints, and gather them together, and destroy the wicked.



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:2


It is you "pre-trib" rapture folks that are always saying the Day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night, to somehow convince us that Jesus' coming is "imminent", right?

We'll if you actually knew what the Day of the Lord meant, you wouldn't say such things.

Don't you guys know, you are defeating your own doctrine, by using this phrase?

Kinda like the king who was convinced that he was wearing a beautiful set of clothes, but was really naked, as he pranced about in front of all.

We'll brother, your "pre-trib" doctrine has "no clothes", and is a contradiction of itself.

The Day of the Lord is after the tribulation.
The resurrection of the dead in Christ is after the tribulation.
The rapture is after the resurrection.

And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...



JLB

 

[reba]

Clean it up stop the snarks.. address the topic not the persons

 

[turnorburn]

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Are these the ten kings?

 

[markathome]

"Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:"
Mediterranean Sea, Red Sea, Arabian Sea & the Persian Gulf aka Sea
surrounds a very very wealthy whore decked out in an
"arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls"
"How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously"
but she was
"drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus"
then Judgement and the world
"cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!"
https://www.google.com/search?q=dubai&biw=1280&bih=597&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X
and
"the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:"

 

[JLB]

Revelation 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Are these the ten kings?

Those are the "regions" or kingdoms that the ten kings will rule.

The Club of Rome has a diagram very similar in which they have the world divided up into these ten regions.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Absolutely. The last trump (the trump of God) is for the Church, and when the Church is complete, the last trump will summon the Church to Heaven, but Christ Himself shall descend and ascend back with the Church. Only God knows the day and the hour, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the 7th trumpet in Revelation.

I asked if you see the "last trump" in Scripture (aside from 1 Cor 15:52). You said "absolutely", but didn't provide the Scripture.
The 7th trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in a series of trumpets and it is the last trumpet mentioned in Scripture. We also see that it is tied into "and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;" (Rev 11:18). This refers to the resurrection of the saints unto eternal life (their reward). Then we see that resurrection pictured in Rev 12:5 by the birth of the "man child". Do you have Scriptural evidence to refute this?

 

[JLB]

I asked if you see the "last trump" in Scripture (aside from 1 Cor 15:52). You said "absolutely", but didn't provide the Scripture.
The 7th trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in a series of trumpets and it is the last trumpet mentioned in Scripture. We also see that it is tied into "and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;" (Rev 11:18). This refers to the resurrection of the saints unto eternal life (their reward). Then we see that resurrection pictured in Rev 12:5 by the birth of the "man child". Do you have Scriptural evidence to refute this?

Here is the last trump, when the dead are raised -

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

After this is the rapture.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Here is the last trump, when the dead are raised -

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16

After this is the rapture.


JLB

I agree that is the last trump as well. If you disagree that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is the "last trump", please give your Scriptural evidence.

 

[JLB]

I agree that is the last trump as well. If you disagree that the 7th trumpet of Revelation is the "last trump", please give your Scriptural evidence.

Nor sir.

I don't disagree.


JLB

 

[Malachi]

The 7th trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in a series of trumpets and it is the last trumpet mentioned in Scripture.

Only for wrath and for judgements. This has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Rapture. Please study the reason for the seven trumpet judgements. They are for the unbelieving and the ungodly.

 

[jocor]

Only for wrath and for judgements. This has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Rapture. Please study the reason for the seven trumpet judgements. They are for the unbelieving and the ungodly.

Ok. You said this a few times. Do you have Scriptural evidence to refute my belief or do you have Scriptural evidence showing the "last trump" is something else?

I agree that the seven trumpets are for wrath and judgment upon unbelievers, but while they are blowing other good things are happening to believers. For example, the two witnesses are resurrected and ascend into heaven during the 6th trumpet (second woe) which does not end until Rev 11:14. The 7th trumpet will not end until the 7th vile ends. During that time, the saints will be resurrected.

 

[Malachi]

do you have Scriptural evidence showing the "last trump" is something else?

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:52)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thess 4:16).

Does this have anything to do with God's wrath against sin and evil? If it does not (which is quite obvious) then we do not have the liberty to connecting this with vials of wrath.

 

[JLB]

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thess 4:16).

Does this have anything to do with God's wrath against sin and evil? If it does not (which is quite obvious) then we do not have the liberty to connecting this with vials of wrath.

The Lord will descend from Heaven. This is the Day of the Lord.

He will pour out God's wrath upon the wicked and execute vengeance.

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:14-15

JLB

 

[jocor]

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:52)
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thess 4:16).

Does this have anything to do with God's wrath against sin and evil? If it does not (which is quite obvious) then we do not have the liberty to connecting this with vials of wrath.

It is not helpful to use the very verses we are questioning in order to support your belief. Both verses occur at the "last trump". When does that occur in the timeline of end-time events?

 

[for_his_glory]

These scriptures in Revelations show that we the Church who are still alive at the time of Christ return, 1Thess 4:16,17, is during the timing of the seventh trumpet. Rev 19 specifically shows that it is we the church that are clothed in fine linen, white and clean that are part of the first resurrection at this time being raised as per 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 and 1Thess 4:16-18 as we are that army that comes back with Jesus as He fights the final battle destroying all abominations that have caused desolation's here on earth. In other words, makes an end to all sin here on earth as God know purifies the heaven and earth sending down the New Jerusalem. Rev 19 proves there is no pretrib rapture of the Church.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming

Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles

Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about son of perdition ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. How could they repent if the Gospel wasn't being preached to them as faith comes by hearing the words of God.
Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation of Papal Rome’s rule (not Catholics). This is Gods rapture of his bride or as scripture calls it being caught up to meet Jesus in the air

Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring great tribulations, even to death; we had to go through before the end of days

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[Malachi]

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

How did they get to Heaven in the first place? Therein lies your answer, as well a the refutation of your theory.

 

[Malachi]

These scriptures in Revelations show that we the Church who are still alive at the time of Christ return, 1Thess 4:16,17, is during the timing of the seventh trumpet.

As I already pointed out several times, THE SEVENTH TRUMPET ANNOUNCES GOD'S WRATH, not His salvation as culminating in the Resurrection/Rapture.

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. (Rev 16:17-21).

It is truly amazing how Christians keep stumbling over "trumpets", since there are trumpets for the saints and trumpets for the sinners, and they are completely separate.