The rapture of the Church

[lecoop]

Is that the only point Jesus was making? I disagree with your interpretation of that scripture. ! Thess 4:13-17

But notice, in verse 17, Paul says that "...we who are alive, who are left," shall be caught up. Remember that...those who are "left" get caught up to meet the Lord.

Who is left of what group? All on the earth? No, not at all. Paul is saying that it is who is left of all those "in Christ" on the earth. The dead "in Christ rise first."

1 Thessalonians 4:
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Which of the dead will rise? Of course, only those that are "In Christ." Which of those alive will be caught up together with the dead that have just risen? Of course, it will be those that remain of the ones "in Christ." All Paul is saying here is that the earth is divided into two groups: those that are "in Christ" and those that are not. This verse pertains to only those "in Christ." The rest of the world will be left wondering.

Then, those that are "in Christ" are also of two groups: those that have gone to sleep in death, and those that are alive at this moment of time. Those that have gone on before and have come back with Jesus, will meet with their risen bodies first, before we that are alive in Christ are changed. Then, those that remain of the total group of "in Christ" will join those that have risen first. Who remains? Since those that died went first,then those that remain are those alive and in Christ. Therefore, this verse has nothing to do with who remained and who went, in the days of Noah and Lot.

Matt 24
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus is speaking here of his coming as shown in Revelation 19, as He is mounted on the white horse. Since the rapture of the church will take place about 7 years previous to this coming, this verse has nothing to do with the rapture. (Compare revelation 7:9 with Rev. 19) What point then, is Jesus making here? It is a very simple point. First (verse 36) Jesus said that no man would know the day nor the hour: it would come therefore, as a total shock. It would be just like the days of Noah. Jesus goes on to explain what he means: how the days of His coming will be like Noah's day. Notice what they were doing in Noah's day: eating, drinking, marrying - just living life to the fullest, with no idea that tomorrow for them would never come. Notice closely what Jesus said: They "knew not until the flood came, and took them away." Therefore, the one point that Jesus is making is the suddeness of the coming, and without any warning. One day they were making fun of Noah, and the next day, drowned. Jesus was not speaking of who "left" and who "remained." Jesus ends up saying "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." How? They "knew not until the flood came, and took them all away." See how clearly Jesus makes His point? One day, people living life to the fullest, and the next, into eternity. It was the same for those living with Lot. (Although Jesus does not cover that in Matthew 24.) One hour they are living life to the fullest, and the next hour, they are toast. Once again, Jesus one point is the suddeness of His coming: NO warning! Luke 28 tells us:

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

NOtice the life there: "did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded." In other words, they were living life to the fullest, with NO thought of sudden death - no thought of tomorrow. Yet Jesus continues, "But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all." Jesus point is the suddeness and without warning the end for them came. Then He adds, "even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. Again, Jesus point is NOT who died, and who is left. No, it is the fact that the end came with no warning.

First, Jesus' coming is being compared to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. After the flood, who was left? Noah and his family...the good guys...the bad guys were taken! After Sodom and Gomorrah went up in smoke, who was left? Lot and his daughters...the good guys...the bad guys were taken! Second, remember 1 Thess? It says that those who are "left" get to meet Jesus in the air. The good guys are left behind to meet Jesus.

As you can see, I disagree completely, as I think Jesus was not speaking of this at all.

Jesus will not return to get just the Christians in the air make a u-turn then go back to heaven then come again at the end because that would be 3 comings to earth.(1 thess 4:13-17) Jesus only comes back once Christs coming will have arcangel descend from heaven with a cry of command and will sound the trumpets and all who are left will be caught up(raptured)

Who says? Jesus Himself said that He was going to prepare a place for us, and after that was complete, He would come and get us. Why is this so hard to believe? Many have gone to visit heaven these last few years, and have returned to tell us that the mansions are completed. Jesus is waiting on the Father to tell Him to go. Who said Jesus only comes back once? If you are sure that the rapture is post "trib" then please outline where the "trib" is (Start and finish) in Revelation, as compared to chapter 19, where John so clearly shows us His coming.

The rapture only happens at the Second Coming. I don't think anyone who claims the "end is near" has any knowledge from God. Maybe they know of the end of the world as we know it(chastisement)I could believe that. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only..

24:36 speaks of the same event as Rev. 19:11.

John Nelson Darby the founder of this new type of Rapture thought the world was going to end in his time too. The apostles thought Christ was coming back in their time. No one knows[/quote]

The "no one knows" is related, not the the rapture, but the the second coming. The Holy Spirit may well give us warning: maybe not the day, maybe not the hour. But maybe the year, or maybe the month.

What about the One taken and one left, in Matthew? Do you want to be the one taken?

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

We see that one is taken and one left. When will this take place? It will be on the day and moment of Jesus return on the white horse. So who will be taken? Luke tells us.

Luk 17
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

A Greek Lexicon says of "eagles:"
an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may to a vulture that resembles an eagle.

This verse is most definitely NOT speaking of the rapture, where the physical body is changed. Here, dead bodies are left for the buzzards. What event is Jesus speaking of here?

Matthew 13:40
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Angels come and snatch the spirits right out of these wicked people, and their bodies fall the the earth, to become food for the buzzards. Definitely NOT the rapture of the church. They, the wicked, are cast straight into hell, Notice the suddeness of it? One moment, they are safe, or think they are, living life to the fullest, and the next moment, they are on their way to hell, and buzzards feed on their bodies. When will it happen? The Moment that Jesus splits the atmosphere, as lightning flashing from East to West.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

lecoop

Who says? Jesus Himself said that He was going to prepare a place for us, and after that was complete, He would come and get us. Why is this so hard to believe? Many have gone to visit heaven these last few years, and have returned to tell us that the mansions are completed. Jesus is waiting on the Father to tell Him to go. Who said Jesus only comes back once? If you are sure that the rapture is post "trib" then please outline where the "trib" is (Start and finish) in Revelation, as compared to chapter 19, where John so clearly shows us His coming.

First ,that is not what the scripture says

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He will receive us when He returns here to this earth,nowhere does He say he will take us to Heaven

The subject of this chapter is in verse 1
John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."
Jesus is telling us not to worry nothing more nothing less.

Please tell me who you know that has gone to Heaven and came back?
As far as Jesus returning only one more time,can you show where He comes back more than once?

The tribulation is nothing more than the deception of satan pretending to be Christ,and that ends at the moment of Christ return(His second and only coming)at the 7th trump

 

[MrVersatile48]

The Bible promised that the signs of the times - showing that Jesus is coming soon - would be as clear as the weather signs of a red sky & as strong as a woman's labour pains

Birthpains don't just begin - they accelerate & intensify, just as the Matt 24 birthpains have been doing since the oft-prophesied 1948 rebirth of Israel

'What can be shaken will be shaken so that what can't be shaken will remain'

Must go

Ian

 

[Cheryl]

The Bible promised that the signs of the times - showing that Jesus is coming soon - would be as clear as the weather signs of a red sky & as strong as a woman's labour pains

Birthpains don't just begin - they accelerate & iontensify, just as the Matt 24 birthpains have been doing since the oft-prophesied 1948 rebirth of Israel

'What can be shaken will be shaken so that what can't be shaken will remain'

Must go

Ian

Yes Jesus said : "See I have warned you" I am not concerned what some believe, Paul said that we shouldn't fight about who is right about this or that, but that we serve a risen Savior Jesus Christ, yet we should stand on the Word of God, those of us who believe in the Rapture, well then we have the peace of God, I'll never look for the anti-christ, I will look for the King of kings.
Cheryl

 

[lecoop]

lecoop

Who says? Jesus Himself said that He was going to prepare a place for us, and after that was complete, He would come and get us. Why is this so hard to believe? Many have gone to visit heaven these last few years, and have returned to tell us that the mansions are completed. Jesus is waiting on the Father to tell Him to go. Who said Jesus only comes back once? If you are sure that the rapture is post "trib" then please outline where the "trib" is (Start and finish) in Revelation, as compared to chapter 19, where John so clearly shows us His coming.

First ,that is not what the scripture says

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He will receive us when He returns here to this earth,nowhere does He say he will take us to Heaven.

Sorry, but I don't think this was the intent of the author. Where is "my Father's house?" This Greek word is used: AV  house 92, at home 1, household 1, from the house 1

Jesus is therefore speaking of the location of where God dwells. We all know God the Father dwells in heaven. That is where His throne is. Therefore, the "mone" or mansions or "staying, abiding, dwelling, abode" are where the Father is, in heaven, not here on earth. At the time that Jesus spoke this, Jesus was on the way to the cross. Was the Father's house at the cross? No, Hhis throne is in heaven. Therefore, Jesus was speaking of after His death and resurrection, when He would ascend back to the Father; to His Father's "house." Remember what Jesus said to Mary? "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father?"

Jesus said He was going [to His Father's house] "to prepare a place." Thayers says of "place:
1) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space
a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district.

Why is it so hard to believe this verse just as it reads, that Jesus went to heaven to prepare our "places" or mansions for us? Jesus ends this thought with "that where I am, there ye may be also."

Where will Jesus be during the 70th week of Daniel? Do you believe that He will be present at His own wedding, and wedding supper? Of course He will be. Where will that be? Of course, in heaven. Again, why is this so hard to believe?

The subject of this chapter is in verse 1
John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."
Jesus is telling us not to worry nothing more nothing less.

Knowing that we have an abode in heaven, would be all the more reason not to worry!

Please tell me who you know that has gone to Heaven and came back?

The list is long, and I am SURE I don't know but a few out of many. I have heard Jessie Duplantis' testamony in person, and I have the video and audio also, of His trip to heaven, where he saw his own mansion, and many others.

Roberts Lairden went when He was a young boy.

I just read of Seneca Sodi, who spent 40 days in heaven.

Pastor Roland Buck.

Kenneth E Hagin.

A four and one half year old girl named "Victoria." She has a book, "Six Big, Big, Big Angels."

Choo Thomas, with perhaps the most numerous trips of all, 17 total trips to heaven. She was taken again and again to mansions, including her own.

The list could go on and on. What I find interesting is that some of these, such as the young girl, came back with knowledge she could have gotten no where else but heaven. Jessie speaks of seeing the first names of the apostles on the foundation: Peter, and Paul, in that order, before the angel pulled him through the gate. Seneca writes of the same thing, in the same order. Many of these tell us of the mansions in heaven. Of course, many will scoff that these stories, and will not believe them.

As far as Jesus returning only one more time,can you show where He comes back more than once?

Of course. You have seen where we meet him in the air, and in the clouds. Surely we would call that a "coming" for it says that he descends from heaven, and we meet him in the air or atmosphere of the earth. When will this happen? It must happen before the 7th seal, for that is when God's wrath starts. And John backs this up by showing us the huge crowd, too large to number, in heaven, just before the 7th seal. Next, John shows us Jesus coming on the white horse, after the 7th week has finished. There is absolutely not one verse in Revelation that gives any hint that Jesus returns at the 7th trump. That is only theory, trying to make the 7th trump "the last trump." John disagrees with that theory, showing Jesus returning after all the trumps and after all the vials.

The tribulation is nothing more than the deception of satan pretending to be Christ,and that ends at the moment of Christ return(His second and only coming)at the 7th trump

The "tribulation" should be called the "70th week," or "Jacob's trouble," and will happen just as surely as the sun will rise tomorrow. It will be a time where Satan is given total control over this planet, for a period of time. It will be a time where millions will be put to death. And it ends with the 7th vial, not the 7th trumpet. Note the words at the 7th vial "it is done." It will be exactly 3 1/2 years from the time the "treaty is signed, to the abomination as told by Daniel and Jesus. Then it will be another 3 1/2 years, or 42 months or 1260 days, from the abomination to the 7th vial; hense the 70th "week" of seven years. Why is this so hard to believe? Where does John show us Christ's return? Of course, it is in chapter 19, after the 70th week is finished, and after the marriage and marriage supper is finished. Jesus has to be in heaven for those events, and this is exactly what John shows us.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

lecoop

I will just address your comment on Rev 19.
I agree with the fact that John shows us that this is the time of Christ return,however this happens at the 7th trump,this is His second coming not 3rd or 4th.
So my question to you is can you show where He comes before this time?

Why is this so hard to believe? Where does John show us Christ's return? Of course, it is in chapter 19, after the 70th week is finished, and after the marriage and marriage supper is finished. Jesus has to be in heaven for those events, and this is exactly what John shows us.

Where do you get that the marraige supper is in Heaven?

Christ is coming here,and the marriage supper will be here as well

Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he said unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he said unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


Here we have the saints shouting and rejoicing because it's time for the wedding! A decree is made concerning the bride's clothing. John is told to write a blessing, and heaven opens and Jesus descends to earth. There is no mention of this wedding or supper occurring in heaven, only the joy of anticipation by those who are about to be married. Why is there no description of the wedding or supper in heaven? The marriage is the union of the saints with Christ. It can only occur when the bride is complete. That's why the statement is made, "His wife hath made herself ready." The church has been purified and made white through tribulation, now she is ready! [1 Peter 1:7, & 4:12,13]. The marriage supper will not occur in heaven, but on earth at Christ's Kingdom.

Isaiah 24
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of Hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
25:1 O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee...
2 For thou hast made a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city: it shall never be built....
6 And in this mountain shall the Lord of Hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of morrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.


This passage parallels Revelation 19 in several ways. First, Isaiah is clearly speaking of Christ's Kingdom. He speaks of the sun and moon being darkened to announce the Day of the Lord. Just as in Revelation 19, the people rejoice over the destruction of Babylon, [vs. 1,2]. Just as in Revelation 19 Isaiah speaks of the marriage supper. But he unmistakably places it on mount Zion in Jerusalem, [vs. 6]. Further proof that this is indeed the marriage supper of the Lamb, comes from Jesus' own words at the Last Supper.


Luke 22
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves;
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come...
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Jesus was referring to Isaiah's prophecy. These verses alone prove that the marriage supper will not be in heaven before the Kingdom of God is established on earth.


If you don't know that satan comes first,you will marry him instead of Christ,which is why Paul warned us about staying virgins(spiritually)

II Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

Paul had converted these Corinthians and taught them enough to get their church on the move. Paul is speaking here about and directing attention to those people that are meddling with the church that he has established. Paul is having righteous jealousy over the converts that he brought to salvation, and he is telling them that he has made each of them part of "the bride of Jesus Christ", the anointed One.

This isn't hard to understand, for most everyone knows what a virgin is. A virgin is an untouched woman. Paul is saying that he wants to present each of these Corinthians as a chaste virgin to Christ, in as much as they are the bride of Christ. Paul is saying that He doesn't want Christ's bride messed with by any of these super-preachers that are causing the divisions within the churches.

For a young woman to be "espoused" to her husband means that she is completely committed to him, even before the vows have been exchanged. Paul is using this relationship whereby we could understand the emotions of Christ towards His bride. The feeling and commitment goes both ways, and applies to the man as much as it applies to the woman. It is no great secret what causes virginity to be lost, for it is being unfaithful sexually to the one you are espoused to marry.

If a woman has been unfaithful, and is with child, how could she expect that she could be accepted by the man she was espoused to, when she is carrying another man's child? Paul is afraid that if Christians start listening to these fairy-tale preachers, they will be taken by the wrong christ, or Satan the Antichrist [the instead of Christ]. Then when Jesus Christ returns at the seventh trumpet, they will be found unworthy to be part of "the bride of Christ". Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 24:19; "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" He was not referring to a mother with a child in her womb, but spiritually speaking, Christians that have given themselves over to the wrong husband. In ignorance they will have been deceived into climbing into the spiritual bed of Satan, and their hearts have been given over to the Satan.

If you are one of the whores of Satan, than you cannot be one of the virgins of Christ waiting with your lamps full of oil [which is the truth from God's Word] that is waiting for the coming of the bridegroom, which is Jesus Christ. Paul now is putting it into a language that most anyone can understand. Paul is saying; "I'm afraid that one of these false teachers is going to seduce you."

II Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."

 

[lecoop]

Here is an interesting vision from an 8 year old. It is one of several that say the same thing.

After that the Lord said, "Servant I will show you the rapture, I will show you how My coming will be." So I said, "Lord I have already seen many things, why are you going to show me more?" Then we arrive at the Throne of God, and I saw thousands and thousands of angels gathered together there. Then we started to go down, and the Lord and I stopped in a very white beautiful cloud. The Lord gave orders to the angels to come and receive the church, and the Lord told me, "Servant watch carefully, because this is the way it will be when I come back, this will be My coming."

I saw people raised from the four corners of the Earth, praising the Name of the Lord. All those people were cover with the power of God. They were dressed in white robes rising up and up...I saw many different people, tall, short, dark, white. All the people, and all those angels went up to the cloud where the Lord and I were. All the people and angels were full of thanksgiving to the Lord...

After that we arrived at the Throne of God, and the Lord said, "Servant, come here." We went out of the Throne room and arrived at a place with a very tiny window. The Lord said, "Servant, now look down." I saw terrible desolation, such tremendous desolation, the whole Earth was desolate and full of pain. The Lord said, "Look servant, this is what is going to be after I have taken My people from the Earth, this will be after My coming, this will be when My church is here with Me." I saw such tremendous desolation.

I saw people that were celebrating one moment, but then, I saw a father looking for his son, a mother looking for her daughters, but they couldn't find them, because Almighty God had taken them. Relatives were looking for other relatives but they could not find them. People were looking for their neighbors but couldn't find them, because the Lord had taken them up with Him.

Something terrible what was happening over all the Earth. I saw a pastor running from one place to another, and I asked the Lord, "Lord, why does that man run from one place to another?" The Lord replied, "Servant, this man was a pastor, but because he thought that I was going to delay, he was left behind. He did not think that I was going to come now, he thought that it was going to take a long time before I would come back, and that is why he was left behind."

Such a terrible time on Earth, I saw such horrifying things. So many people were hurting each other, saying, "We want love! We want peace!" But it was too late! The Lord told me, "Look My servant, I talked to them, I spend time knocking at the hearts of these people, but they did not want to look for Me. Well, now they are left behind, and there is nothing I can do for them now. Why, because I have already taken My church with Me. While all My people are with Me in heaven enjoying the marriage of the Lamb, all these people here will suffer great pain, and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For they did not want to obey My Word, they preferred to make fun and criticize My Word."



http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/8_ye ... lation.htm

Choo Thomas saw the same thing: rapture first, then desolation on the earth, following the rapture. This should not be hard to believe, for it is exactly what the bible shows us. We, as the church, have no appointment with God's wrath. We will be in heaven, while satan takes over the earth. Thank God, he is limited to only 42 months.

Notice where the meeting took place? "the Lord and I stopped in a very white beautiful cloud..." and " All the people, and all those angels went up to the cloud where the Lord and I were." This is exactly what Paul said, that we would rise up to meet the Lord in the clouds and in the air.

Notice when Jesus said that the marriage would be? While the church is in heaven, and the devil is running the world. Again, this is exactly what John shows us: the marriage is mentioned before Jesus is seen on the white horse.
I hope you all will read this entire vision.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

When will we sit at the marriage supper, and where? John mentions that the time for the marriage has come, before Jesus gets on the white horse. This should tell everyone that the wedding supper is in heaven. JOhn does not actually see it, so he does not describe it. He only tells us when it will be. This is exactly what people have seen in person, or in spirit, as they have visited heaven:

I could see in the distance that there were white horses in Heaven, as it is written in the word of God in Revelation 19:11. "Then I saw heaven open and a white horse appeared. Its rider is called Faithful and True; justly He Judges and wages war." Those horses were the ones that the Lord will use when He comes to the Earth to take His people, His church. I walked to the horses and began to pat them. The Lord followed me and allowed me to ride one of them.

When I started to ride, I felt something that I had never felt before on Earth. I began to experience the peace, the freedom, the love, the holiness that a person can have in that beautiful place. I started to enjoy everything that my eyes could see. I just wanted to enjoy everything in that beautiful paradise that the Lord has prepared for us.

We also could see the wedding banquet table, everything was already served. It had no beginning or end. We saw the chairs prepared for us. There was also crowns of eternal life that are ready to be taken by us. We saw delicious foods that are already set, for all of those that will be invited to the Wedding of the Lamb.

This was seen by one of 7 youths that were taken first to hell, and then to heaven:

http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/7_Jo ... Heaven.htm

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I have wondered many times why there is such controversy over when the rapture will be. I am beginning to understand just how important this is. Take, for instance, a quote from one of the above posts: This is Jesus speaking to an 8 year old Puerto Rican girl, concerning a pastor who was left behind:

"he thought that I was going to delay, he was left behind. He did not think that I was going to come now, he thought that it was going to take a long time before I would come back, and that is why he was left behind."

Later on, Jesus again told her, ""Servant, there is nothing I can do now, for a long time I talked with him and told him that I was going to come very soon, but he didn't believe me, well, now he is left behind."

How many of the church today believe that Jesus is not coming soon? How many today are not even looking for His coming, believing that other signs, such as the appearance of the beast (antichrist) must come first?

What does the word of God say? That we should be looking!!!!


Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

This says that His grace has appeared to all men, so not one human will be with an excuse. It goes on to say that His grace teaches every man that "we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present world," and then, on top of that, we all, every man, should be "looking for that blessed hope..." What is the blessed hope? Of course it is to miss the 70th week, and spend that week with Jesus in heaven. Notice what Paul ties to the "blessed hope?" It is: "His glorious appearing." Will we see Him in the clouds when we meet Him there? Of course we will. Paul tells us we will. Will He not appear glorious then, as well as when He comes on the white horse, 7 years later? Of course, He will appear glorious.

Paul further develops this "hope."

1 Thessalonians 2:19
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Paul's hope was to see the Thessalonian church with the Lord at His coming! Again, then, "hope" is tied to His coming. Yet Paul is not finished:

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul is saying that those that have no belief in the resurrection of the dead, written here as happening at the time of the rapture, have no hope. So once again, Paul is tying hope to the rapture.

1 Thes 5
1 Thessalonians 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
...
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Once again, Paul mentions hope; here "the hope of salvation." But that does not finish either Paul's sentence, nor his thought. He goes on to say, tied with that hope, that we as the church have no appoinment with wrath. What wrath is Paul speaking about? Of course, the wrath of the 70th week of Daniel. Paul is telling us here that we won't be here during that wrath, for we have no such appointment. Rather than wrath, then, we will experience salvation; not on earth, but in heaven.

Finally, John finishes this thought for us:

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

What hope? Of course, the hope that when He appears, we shall be like Him.

Therefore, we should be looking for that blessed hope, as if it could come this moment. We should always have the thought in mind, "Jesus has just left heaven, and has started His descent, and any moment now, I am going to hear the trumpet!!!!!!!!"

Written to the church at Sardis Jesus says,
Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Therefore, we must "watch." What are we to be "watching" for? Of course, "His coming." We know that this cannot refer to His coming on the white horse, for there are many things that are written, that we know will take place before His coming on the white horse. There must then, be another "coming." Indeed, there is, where He descends to a cloud, in the air.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Wow... so what you are saying is, if one does not watch for the return of Jesus (which is a work) one is not saved and won't be given entrance into the Kingdom? So, what else do we need to "do" to be part of this so-called rapture and allowed into the Kingdom?

It seems that just about every day someone is tagging yet another work onto being born-again.... and you wonder why there is so much controversy over an issue that is not of a salvific nature at all. :

 

[lecoop]

Wow... so what you are saying is, if one does not watch for the return of Jesus (which is a work) one is not saved and won't be given entrance into the Kingdom? So, what else do we need to "do" to be part of this so-called rapture and allowed into the Kingdom?

It seems that just about every day someone is tagging yet another work onto being born-again.... and you wonder why there is so much controversy over an issue that is not of a salvific nature at all. :

Sorry, but no one said they were not born again. They were born again by faith, plus nothing. However, it is very probable that going out on the first load (the rapture) will take faith too (imagine that: receiving something from God by faith!). I put it to you: can anyone have faith in something that they do not believe in? Have you ever heard a preacher preach that the rapture will be by faith? I guess in 60 years, I remember one.

If born again people miss the rapture, perhaps because they are not living for Him, and not looking for His coming, they can still make it to heaven, IF they are willing to die for their testimony:

Revelation 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Again, I ask, what if they don't love their lives unto death, but take the mark to stay alive?

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

lecoop

If born again people miss the rapture, perhaps because they are not living for Him, and not looking for His coming, they can still make it to heaven, IF they are willing to die for their testimony:
Again, I ask, what if they don't love their lives unto death, but take the mark to stay alive?

I don't mean any harm or disrespect but,what you just posted dosent make any sense.
There is no what if in this verse,we see in the previous verse satan being cast to earth,this is when he will pretend to be Christ while in his role as the antichrist.Christ has not yet returned before this happens and He will not return until satan is revealed.

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

When Satan is cast out it will be as it was in the days of Noah. This is what Jesus said in Matthew 24:37: "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Mankind will be mixing with the angels, and the women even marrying them just as was going on in Noah's day before the flood. Sodomy will be common, and all forms of filth will be made public, and accepted and considered normal. The world and the kenite influence is preparing us, and our mind to accept all forms of filth in sex and marriage as being natural; and to consider their perversion as being of God.

Your acceptance and view of this filth of sodomy and religious form will tell you to what state of depravity your mind has sunk. The condition of your soul will be determined by what you know, and how you stand on these issues, at Satan's arrival to earth.

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power [authority] of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

This is why Satan's other name is "the accuser", for he continually stands before God's throne accusing all the saints of God. When you mess up, Satan will let God know about it. That is why it is important for us to repent immediately when we become aware of sin in our lives. Then all barriers between God and us are removed. Satan will continue to accuse you before God, right up to the time he is caste out to the earth.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

When Satan and his fallen angles are cast out onto the earth, the "elect" and those who have the seal of God in their minds will overcome them through the power given them in Christ's blood. You are the "elect" when you understand who Satan is, and what will come to pass. God has promised you and I that we have power over Satan, and God's protection is extended to each of those sealed in their minds.

"The word" of your testimony will allow you to overcome them, you won't even premeditate what to say, for God, through the Holy Spirit, will put the words in your mouth. The death that comes is to the "two witnesses" only, and to them it is for 84 hours [three and a half days].

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

When Satan is caste out, those dear souls in heaven will start a celebration in heaven. Those are the dear Christians that have died and are in heaven with the Father. However, Satan [the devil] is coming to earth with his angels to bring the wrath of their deception with them. Satan is not after your body, but after your soul.

Satan knows God's word, and the judgment passed upon him. He is sentenced to death already, and he knows his time is short. He will come to earth with his bag of tricks, and lying wonders, and the with authority from God to deceive every man on this earth. The only exception is to those who have the seal [knowledge] of God [written in God's Word] in their minds for they will not be deceived.

 

[lecoop]

lecoop

If born again people miss the rapture, perhaps because they are not living for Him, and not looking for His coming, they can still make it to heaven, IF they are willing to die for their testimony:
Again, I ask, what if they don't love their lives unto death, but take the mark to stay alive?

I don't mean any harm or disrespect but,what you just posted dosent make any sense.
There is no what if in this verse,we see in the previous verse satan being cast to earth,this is when he will pretend to be Christ while in his role as the antichrist.Christ has not yet returned before this happens and He will not return until satan is revealed.

And I mean no disrespect either. I just believe you are mistaken, as much as you believe I am. Of course it makes sense. Jesus will come for those that are prepared for Him. Many will not be. For example, it seems that you are not prepared, due to your beliefs. For example, if Jesus descended to the clouds early in October 2007, to bring His church home, and He was coming for those looking for His coming and prepared for His coming, would you be included? How could you be included, since you don't believe He comes first? As I pointed out, in every supernatural vision I have read, and there are several, where people are shown the rapture of the church in a vision, it is always before the opening of the 70th week. And this is exactly what John shows us in Revelation. The rapture will take place as the beginning event of the 6th seal. The resurrection of those long dead in Christ will cause the tremendous earthquake, as God brings together the molecules that once formed their bodies. (The earth did quake, ... and the graves were opened... Mat. 27:51-52) Just after this great event at the 6th seal, John saw the "just raptured" church in heaven, as a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. This should not be hard to believe, as it is in black and white, in the book.

When Satan is cast out it will be as it was in the days of Noah. This is what Jesus said in Matthew 24:37: "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

You have the scripture right: Satan is cast out. But you have the timing wrong, and you miss totally what point Jesus was making. First, Satan is cast out at the midpoint of the week. This will be 3 1/2 years before Jesus gets on the white horse. Second, you totally miss Jesus' point about Noah. Please notice the simple word, "for," or "because." It is the first word in verse 38. This word is there in the Greek to show us that Jesus was making one point, and one point only about Noah. In other words, the days just before Jesus return on the white horse will be just like Noah in this one respect:...

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So what one way will Jesus' coming be like the days of Noah? Jesus tells us. They were living life to the fullest right up to the day that they drowned. In other words, it was a "suddenly." Once they saw that Noah had told them the truth, it was too late to do anything but die. It will be the same for those living the moment that Jesus returns. Just as lightning takes but a moment to flash across the sky, it will take Jesus but a moment from the time He hits the atmosphere to reach earth. Suppose that is the moment that the parable of the tares takes place. (I believe it is). Angels are sent to take the wicked people off the earth. One moment they will be living life to the fullest, just as those that laughed at Noah did - and the next moment, an angel will snatch their spirit right out of their body, and they will be cast into hell. Their body will become food for the buzzards.

Your acceptance and view of this filth of sodomy and religious form will tell you to what state of depravity your mind has sunk. The condition of your soul will be determined by what you know, and how you stand on these issues, at Satan's arrival to earth.

As I said before, most of the church will not be here.

When Satan and his fallen angles are cast out onto the earth, the "elect" and those who have the seal of God in their minds will overcome them through the power given them in Christ's blood. You are the "elect" when you understand who Satan is, and what will come to pass. God has promised you and I that we have power over Satan, and God's protection is extended to each of those sealed in their minds.

Sorry, but God promised the church power over Satan, only until He promised that the beast would be given authority over the saints. How could this be? Very simple: the church is removed to heaven, because they have no appointment with His wrath. Then according to God's word, Satan is given total authority over this planet, through the beast, for 42 months. There will be VERY few places to hide.

"The word" of your testimony will allow you to overcome them, you won't even premeditate what to say, for God, through the Holy Spirit, will put the words in your mouth. The death that comes is to the "two witnesses" only, and to them it is for 84 hours [three and a half days].

Perhaps you need to read this again, slowly:

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Did you notice the last phrase of this verse:

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

John is telling us that these people were put to death! They "overcame" in that they refused the mark, and were put to death. The beast "overcomes" the saints. This is just as much God's word as any other verse. It means that He has been given permission and authority by God's word, to put to death, millions of saints.

When Satan is caste out, those dear souls in heaven will start a celebration in heaven. Those are the dear Christians that have died and are in heaven with the Father. However, Satan [the devil] is coming to earth with his angels to bring the wrath of their deception with them. Satan is not after your body, but after your soul.

Yes, the dead in Christ are there, but the raptured church is there, as shown to John in Rev. 7. When satan comes, He will be after BOTH body and soul. He will annialate millions.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Coop, I misunderstood the intention of your post. np...sorry.

 

[lecoop]

Coop, I misunderstood the intention of your post. np...sorry.

Thanks! But just to make sure everyone gets it, my intention was, I was just meditating on these things, and was thinking why the enemy is so strongly against the pre-trib rapture. I am beginning to see that I have thought wrongly about this all my life, thinking that just being born again was good enough. I have changed my belief. Not only must we be born again for any hope of the rapture; we must be living for Him! This is not the time to have one foot in the world, so to speak, and hope to be raptured.

For those in previous generations, dying "in Christ" was undoubtedly enough to get one to heaven. We, however, live in a very special generation, and I have no doubt that I will hear the trumpet calling us home. For those that are "alive and remain," as Paul says, I just don't think that being born again is enough. I believe that Jesus will come for those that are looking for Him. This really says a lot, for if a believer is living in sin, and knows they are living in sin, they are not wanting Jesus to come at this time, and are just not looking for Him. I fear they will not even hear the sound of the trumpet. It is a time for us to press in, and stay CLOSE to HIm, for our redemption draws near! Saints, if you know you need to be closer, now is the time! Don't wait! Run, don't walk, to God, and get right with Him.

I also fear for those that believe other things must come first. Why? Just because their belief, they will not be looking for His coming. They may be expecting something else to come first, and so will not be looking for His coming.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

lecoop

....if Jesus descended to the clouds early in October 2007, to bring His church home, and He was coming for those looking for His coming and prepared for His coming, would you be included? How could you be included, since you don't believe He comes first?

I can assure you that Christ is not coming in early Oct,the fact is He told us that He would not return until aftrer satan,and if you think He comes first you will be deceived by satan pretending to be Christ. Christ told us this in Matthew 24 and Paul told us the same thing in Thess

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Christ in this chapter,tells us everything that must happen before His return,and most have not happened yet ,so for me Oct is out of the question

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Christ did not say he that is raptured will be saved He saved those indure till the end.

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand"

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Can you please tell me how you all will not be here during the tribulation when Christ just said He was not coming back until afterwards?Now tell me whom should I believe,man or Christ?.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Whats the subject here?

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

This is the same thing Christ told us in Matthew 24

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. How will we know who he is when he arrives?

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

This beast "thou [John] sawest", was in the first earth age; and is not on this earth now, as it is written in Revelation 12:7. Satan is in heaven being our accuser, and will be cast out to this earth very shortly by Michael.

It amazes me how if you follow the subject in both these books you can actually come to the conclusion that some how you will be gone before satan arrive

 

[lecoop]

lecoop

....if Jesus descended to the clouds early in October 2007, to bring His church home, and He was coming for those looking for His coming and prepared for His coming, would you be included? How could you be included, since you don't believe He comes first?

I can assure you that Christ is not coming in early Oct,the fact is He told us that He would not return until aftrer satan,and if you think He comes first you will be deceived by satan pretending to be Christ. Christ told us this in Matthew 24 and Paul told us the same thing in Thess

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Christ in this chapter,tells us everything that must happen before His return,and most have not happened yet ,so for me Oct is out of the question

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Christ did not say he that is raptured will be saved He saved those indure till the end.

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand"

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Can you please tell me how you all will not be here during the tribulation when Christ just said He was not coming back until afterwards?Now tell me whom should I believe,man or Christ?.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Whats the subject here?

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

This is the same thing Christ told us in Matthew 24

Matthew 24:4 "And Jesus answered and said unto them, "Take heed that no man deceive you."

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. How will we know who he is when he arrives?

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

This beast "thou [John] sawest", was in the first earth age; and is not on this earth now, as it is written in Revelation 12:7. Satan is in heaven being our accuser, and will be cast out to this earth very shortly by Michael.

It amazes me how if you follow the subject in both these books you can actually come to the conclusion that some how you will be gone before satan arrive

Thanks, Onelove. You have proved my point exactly. With your current beliefs, if Jesus came tonight, you would not be prepared. You do not expect Him to come. You are not looking for His coming.

Why do you see these scriptures differently that I do? It is very simple. One of us is reading and understanding with preconceived glasses on. Why would you think Jesus was talking about the church in the Olivet discourse, when He was speaking to Jews under the old covenant about their final week? At that point in time, the Gentile church was not in existence, and would not be, until God watched to see if the Jews would accept Him as their Savior and Messiah, after He died for them.

We both know that the verses in 2 Thes.2 can be seen different ways, again depending on what preconceived glasses one is wearing.

Christ in this chapter,tells us everything that must happen before His return,and most have not happened yet ,so for me Oct is out of the question

What if the church was not even in His mind during this chapter?

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Christ did not say he that is raptured will be saved He saved those indure till the end.

Endure what to the end? And who will do this enduring? Who is being spoken to here? It should be obvious that only those on earth will have to endure. One should be able to see that much of this discourse is about Daniel's 70th week, with the abomination taking place in the middle of that week.

Wait! Who's week is it? Do we call it "Paul's 70th week, meaning it is for Gentiles?" It is called the week of Paul's trouble? No, it is the week of Jacob's trouble. In other words, this week is God dealing with Israel, NOT the Gentile church! Therefore, the "He" that must endure to the end is not speaking to me or to the church at all. This is pointed straight at the Jews, or those living in Israel at the time of the end. This is rightly dividing the word of truth.

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand"

Who is going to see this abomination? Will I see it? Will you see it? No, Jesus is speaking to those living in Judea. He said, "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains..." Are you living in Judea? Why then do you think this is speaking to the church?

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Can you please tell me how you all will not be here during the tribulation when Christ just said He was not coming back until afterwards?Now tell me whom should I believe,man or Christ?.

If we compare verse 30 with Revelation, we see that it is speaking of Jesus coming on the white horse in Rev. 19. If you understand John's chronology, you will know that this is after the 70th week has finished. Who then, is the "they" in verse 30? It is not the church! This is speaking to the same people that the entire chapter is pointed to: Israel. Where will Jesus descend to? Israel. Will the church be here on earth to see Jesus descend on the white horse? Of course not, because we will have been in heaven for the previous 7 years, and will have just finished the marriage of the lamb, and the marriage supper, all done in heaven. We will be coming back with Him, not on the earth watching Him.

Coop

 

[golfjack]

Coop, I have a few questions for you. You say that some born again Christians will not be raptured. Are you saying unconfessed sin will prevent them from Going? Or are you saying if they do not have faith for the rapture, they will not be taken? I believe we must define our terms here. What about baby Christians? Can a believer lose their salvation? What about backslidden Christians? What about Christians that have not renewed their minds? What does being in Christ mean? These are just a few I have.

I heard the tapes about the children who visited heaven and hell, and to me, I think they maybe confused and lose a little bit of credibility. Why? For one, they said that if a Christian don't tithe, they go to hell. I have never heard of that before. One more statement. I believe when they used Heb. 10:26 to state that a Believer could willfilly sin and go to hell. I don't believe Paul is talking about sins, but sin, which I believe is the unpardonable sin. This sin is actually willfully denying Christ after one is saved.

Looking forward to your answers. Then I will respond to your answers.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[lecoop]

Coop, I have a few questions for you. You say that some born again Christians will not be raptured. Are you saying unconfessed sin will prevent them from Going?

Not at all, lest no one would go! Paul said that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Many then, have sins that they are not even aware of. On the other hand, we should NEVER have unconfessed sins that we know about. If someone's heart is right with God, the moment they sin, they RUN to God and confess.

Or are you saying if they do not have faith for the rapture, they will not be taken?

No, I don't think so; at least not for all. It will be a matter of the heart. If someone has convinced themselves that the rapture is after the 70th week, can they have faith for a pretrib rapture? I have seen so many argue so vehemothly against a pretrib rapture, that I fear for them. I guess what this comes down to is this: what should be our response to visions/trips to heavens, etc, that others experience? Should we ignore all of them? I Personally would not ignore them, since the church has been built on revelation knowledge since the beginning. Therefore, when I read from several different people, all in agreement of something that Jesus told them, I pay close attention, and study the word of God to see if it agrees with the word. Several people now have written that some born again people will miss the rapture. Jesus said (according to the writer) that they will not even hear the trumpet. If indeed Jesus did say this, and it seems likely to me that He did, what should be our response?

I believe we must define our terms here. What about baby Christians?

They are babies, and I think have received very little; therefore, God will require very little. Again, I think God will look on the heart. I am sure that many that have just gotten born again, no absolutely nothing about the rapture. Perhaps they have never even heard about it. How could they have faith in the rapture, if they have never heard? They could not. But I believe they will be caught up anyway. Therefore, it cannot be by faith only.

Can a believer lose their salvation?

Absolutely.

What about backslidden Christians?

I would NOT want to be in this spiritual condition at the moment of the rapture! They may not go. Why! Because their heart is not in the right condition. We can be sure that the Holy Spirit has been wooing them back to a close relationship with God, but they have been ignoring Him. Why would someone be "backslidden?" I would say because they were tempted by things in the world, and drawn away by their lust for such things. Suppose such a one has knowledge of the rapture. Would they at that time of their life (backslidden) be looking for His coming, meaning, a longing and eager anticipation for it? No way! They are hoping He won't come at the moment. I remember when I was 7 years old, and we were having special meetings at our church. Night after night, I would resist the Holy Spirit, and go home without getting saved. I was so scared of the rapture, I would pray every night, "Lord, please don't come tonight, because I am not ready!!" What a stupid prayer to pray! Why didn't I just pray to be saved? I cannot answer that.

What about Christians that have not renewed their minds?

I guess you are speaking of baby Christians. Has the Holy Spirit been trying to get them to grow up? How long have they been born again? I guess this would depend entirely on the condition of their heart. There are Christians that are trapped by sin, and want out desperately. But there are others that love what they are doing, and have no desire to change. In other words, they want heaven, but they also love the world. This is a VERY dangerous condition to be in, for their heart is not right. Let me give one example. I know a man that for years had a very successful healing ministry. In his younger days, when the meetings were smaller, he had healing lines and would minister to each person for some amount of time - as the Spirit led. As he finished one person, and started to lay hands on the next person - a gentleman - the Spirit spoke up and said, "Don't lay hands on him! He has been born again for 40 years, and has made not one effort to live for me!" Healing is God's will, and He already had paid the price for it, with the stripes on Jesus back. This man could undoubtedly have repented and received His healing, because God is a merciful God. But that did not happen. His heart was not right before God. Therefore, I believe God will look on the heart, and those that are pure in heart will be raptured. Is not there a verse that says only the pure in heart will see God? Will we see Him in the clouds? I am sure we will.

What does being in Christ mean?

I take this to mean having been born again.

I heard the tapes about the children who visited heaven and hell, and to me, I think they maybe confused and lose a little bit of credibility. Why? For one, they said that if a Christian don't tithe, they go to hell. I have never heard of that before.

This has bothered me, and not just a little. Choo Thomas has said the same thing, saying that Jesus said it, and more than once. However, we cannot establish "doctrine" from a vision. Doctrine must come from the word of God. I personally cannot find that we are under the law of the tithe. I don't have an answer for this - except to say that again, in may be a matter of the heart. Some may not tithe because they are stingy. They probably do not give at all - or very little, because their heart is wrong before God. I do not believe the Gentile church is under the law of the tithe. However, I do not stop that from keeping me from giving. I love to give, and I can give "hilariously!" (Cheerful comes from the Greek word, "hilaros.") I believe God measures our giving, not by the amount we give, but by what we have left.

One more statement. I believe when they used Heb. 10:26 to state that a Believer could willfilly sin and go to hell. I don't believe Paul is talking about sins, but sin, which I believe is the unpardonable sin. This sin is actually willfully denying Christ after one is saved.

I think many times, these are true visons, or trips to heaven. I believe they actually happened. I believe that Jesus did say these things to them. However, I believe when these visions get written down, they use their own knowledge of the word, to add scriptures to their writtings. And here they may err, for they may not have a good understanding of the scriptures. Mature Christians, such as Jessie Duplantis, or Kenneth Hagin, may do a better job of adding scriptures to their visions when they write them down.

Looking forward to your answers. Then I will respond to your answers.

You have asked tough questions. My beliefs are changing on this subject!


Coop

 

[golfjack]

Coop, Thanks for your comments. I pretty much agree with you. Getting to know if one can lose their salvation, I think we must look at Heb. 10:26-29 and Heb. 6:4-6. If you went to Rhema, I am sure you have studied the Book authored by Hagin called The Triumph Church. I think what he wrote about this issue is credible. There are some like Holiness Pentacostals that teach that one can lose their salvation at the drop of a hat. I once got involved with this group and left when I discovered what they believed. Bottom line, I have trusted Jesus for a very long time and will continue to Trust Him and trust that I will be raptured. The best way to keep the faith is to go to Church and study our Bibles.

Thanks again Brother, and may God bless your socks off. We are the head annd not the tail. We are more than Conquerers.

Golfjack