The rapture of the Church

[MrVersatile48]

See What To Do About Nukes?

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=29589

Ian

 

[MrVersatile48]

Don't miss the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus, before the worst time on Earth comes - Matt 24:30-42, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 @ http://www.BibleGateway.org

Lunchtime phone-ins @ http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2 & http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool etc accept emails as well as calls

'Let us redeem the time, for the days are evil'

God bless!

Ian

 

[MrVersatile48]

1 - 10 of about 1,340,000 for 'Let us redeem the time, for the days are evil'

WEB RESULTS

The Fallacy of Time Management - http://www.FaithInTheWorkplace.com

... for us the contents and limits of a period of time are generally " ... unwise men but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil. ( Eph. ...

http://www.christianitytoday.com/workpl ... ement.html - 97k - Cached - More pages from this site

A Challenge from Promise Keepers - "Redeem the Time" at Marion

The conference theme is from Ephesians 5:16 "Let us redeem the time for the days are evil. ... play to bring about God's will for men to redeem the time. ...

http://www.youraffordablewebsite.com/db/Marion - 5k - Cached - More pages from this site

Redeem the Time - Dr. Shelton Smith

"Redeeming the time, because the days are evil."–Eph. ... Let the excitement show! This excitement is not just for the big day. ...

http://www.swordofthelord.com/archives/ ... heTime.htm - 23k - Cached - More pages from this site

The days of Noah

That need is even greater for us today as we clearly see that day approaching. ... May you redeem the time, in whatever way God is calling you to, making the most ...

http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/studies ... ofnoah.htm - 42k - Cached - More pages from this site

HOW IS TIME TO BE REDEEMED?

... these words also, linked to redeeming your time: "because the days are evil" ... sister Martha; by that you will redeem on time soon, for your walk will be ...

http://www.geocities.com/gospelandreviv ... n_time.htm - 15k - Cached - More pages from this site

SWSBS: Garner on wasting time

... as wise, Redeeming the time, because the days are evil," Ephesians 5:15-16. The ... Haste let us carry God's precious message, guiding the erring back to ...

http://www.swsbs.edu/pages/writings/Garner/time.html - 12k - Cached - More pages from this site


Redeeming the Time (PDF)

Redeeming the Time "Redeeming the time, because the days are evil." Ephesians 5:16 ... With its birth to come the prospect of 365 days for us to spend. ...

http://www.geocities.com/kjvbiblestudytools/E0005.pdf - 23k - View as html - More pages from this site

WHAT ABOUT TIME? - (SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD)

How are we utilizing the time that God has granted to us to improve for His ... unwise men but as wise, making the most of the time, because the days are evil. ...

http://www.jlfoundation.net/time.html - 13k - Cached - More pages from this site

A Fascinating New Look at ..

Let us notice once again the time sequence of events as they are portrayed in ... not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. ...

http://www.triumphpro.com/1260,1290,1335.htm - 204k - Cached - More pages from this site

 

[MrVersatile48]

Did you hear me on Howard's Review @ http://www.revelationTV.com @ 10.40 last night?

I'd been in the bath while a few folk called the Rapture 'false doctrine'

Then one of the co-hosts said that, though he believed in the Rapture, no-one had ever shown him any Scriptures to say why it would be pre-trib: before the Great Tribulation, the worst time on Earth comes

He asked if anyone could ring in with just one

I quoted 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

The Coming of the Lord

13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.

14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5

1Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,

2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

5 You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.


6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled.

7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night.

8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

& 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & Matt 24:30-42

Also how the church is still on Earth in Revelation 2-3

Then Rev 4:1 says 'Come up'

& the Great Tribulation doesn't start till Rev 6

I said Revelation prophesied the classic escalation pattern

Rev 6:8 says

I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Then Rev 9:13-18 says

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns[a] of the golden altar that is before God.

14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.

16The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.

17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.

18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths.


& total Armageddon isn't till Revelation 16

He asked @ the 'saints' later in Rev (than Rev 6) & I said that, after the Rapture, many folk will realise their werror & 144,000 Jewish evangelists will preach worldwide

He asked where it says that & replied Rev 14 but he'd craftily turned my volume off so that no anwer I tries after that was heard on TV

I did say how the Bible say "NOW is the acceptable time: behold, NOW is the Day of salvation"

It says, "TODAY, if you hear God's voice - (as God's Word is faithfully preached) - don't harden your heart"

It says, "How can we escape if we neglect such great salvation?"

What they cut off was that Jesus said that this 'fig tree' generation will be 'cut short' by the Rapture - 'otherwise no flesh would be left alive' - Matt 24

As I've often preached in NW & N Wales precincts, the 'birthpains' intensify & accelerate to bring on that Great Delivery

That's why Jesus, when He prophesied such awful signs to show His return was approaching & 'even at the door', could say, "Don't be afraid...don't be alarmed...trust in God...trust in Me"

Don't call what God's Word clearly teaches 'false doctrine' - that is calling God a liar

Like the folk who say there will be no Millenium rule of Christ when Zechariah 14, Isaiah 65-66 & Revalation 20 clearly promise that He will rule Earth from Jerusalem, with a rod of iron, & bring perfect peace & justice

See http://www.BibleGateway.org

Must go!

Ian

 

[lecoop]

Ian,

Although I believe your premise, I disagree with the scriptures you posted to "prove" that premise. For example, if we took 100 beginning readers (are you smarter than a first grader?) and had them read Rev 4:1 & 2, I am convince that all of them would tell us that it was John being called up to heaven, so that he would see things "hereafter."

To try to have the intent of the author show us the rapture here, is just poor bible exegesis. Is it any wonder then, that so many new bible students look for something else than pre-trib? We as pretribbers have stretched these verses so far that we have left little other options for people that can read to look for another theory that fits scriptures better.

Coop

 

[MrVersatile48]

Hi Lyle!

Can't resist doin' a Jethro Bodine here:- 8-)

Altogether now...

123...

"I done graduated 6th grade!" :

Don't forget that the church is on Earth in Rev 2-3 & in heaven Rev 4-5. Only then does Rev 6 start the Great Tribulation. What I forgot before is...

who could be raptured AFTER Isaiah 24 & Rev 16 total devastation?

what would be the point of doing a Rapture AFTER Isaiah 24 & Rev 16 wreak total devastation?[/b]

Isaiah 24

The LORD's Devastation of the Earth

1 See, the LORD is going to lay waste the earth and devastate it; he will ruin its face
and scatter its inhabitants-

2 it will be the same for priest as for people, for master as for servant, for mistress as for maid, for seller as for buyer, for borrower as for lender, for debtor as for creditor.

3 The earth will be completely laid waste and totally plundered. The LORD has spoken this word.

4 The earth dries up and withers,the world languishes and withers,the exalted of the earth languish.

5 The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant.

6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth's inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left.

Revelation 16

The Seven Bowls of God's Wrath

1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."

2 The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.

3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died.

4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.

5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgments,
you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged;

6 for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."

7 And I heard the altar respond: "Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments."

8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire.

9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony

11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.

13 Then I saw three evil[a] spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.

15 "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed."

16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

17The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!"

18Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake.

19The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.

21 From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

As Jesus said, in Matt 24, this climax generation of all history - that began with the prophesied rebirth of the 'fig tree' - Israel - will be 'cut short for the sake of the elect - otherwise no flesh would be left alive'

Don't miss the instant airlift rescue of all who love Jesus, folks... tell all your friends @ it too, OK?

Ian

 

[lecoop]

Ian writes

"Don't forget that the church is on Earth in Rev 2-3 & in heaven Rev 4-5. Only then does Rev 6 start the Great Tribulation."

What is the time frame of chapters 1-3? Of course, it was when John was living, around 95 AD. Of course the church was still there: John was to write to seven of them. Now, let;s look at Rev. 4:1

4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

We can see that John is still on earth, and it is still 95 AD. Notice, "I looked," "I heard." What is happening in this verse? As I said before, any beginning reader would tell us that John saw a door opened in heaven, and heard a voice from heaven telling him to "come up here." Please keep your timing straight here: this was in 95 AD, and it was John that was called to heaven. Why did God call John to heaven? To "show things which must be hereafter."

Sorry, no "church" rapture or being caught up here. That is only a myth. It is God calling John to heaven, so that we have this book to read.

Next, as we study chapters 4 and 5, we can discover the timing there also. John was seeing visions, and then wrote what he saw in the visions, in the book.

Revelation 9:17
And thus I saw the horses in the vision,...

Chapters 4 & 5 are a vision of the throne room. However, there are things about this vision that must be pointed out.

Rev 4
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

John sees Father God on the throne. He sees the 24 elders. He sees the Holy Spirit. Hmmm. Someone is missing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Acts 7:56
And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Matthew 22:44
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Ephesians 1:20
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Colossians 3:1
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 10:12
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

1 Peter 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

We see then, that after Jesus ascended to heaven, he went to sit at the right hand of God the Father. Stephen saw Him there. So we have to ask the question, why was Jesus not at the right hand of God here in a vision in 95 AD?

Next, notice these verses:

Rev 5
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

We see that heaven was conducting a thorough search for some man worthy to take the book and break the seals. The search included heaven, earth and hell. Please understand that this was a search being conducted by angels. They did not miss someone: the point is, at this point in time, when this search was made, they found no man worthy, simply because at that point in time, no man was worthy. Therefore, we must ask "what was the time?"

Notice that John wept much. How much? Perhaps in the vision, it was for days or weeks! Next, we see another clue:

Rev 5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

It seems that after John wept much, finally a man was found worthy! Apparently, this search for someone worthy had been ongoing, and never stopped. Why? When it is written that "no man was found," we know that the angels had completed the search, and no one was found. So they must have started the search over. I would guess this search had been ongoing since the day that Adam fell. However, we read in verse 5 that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah had finally been found worthy. Now look at verse six: suddenly someone new appears in the throne room: someone that had not been there a moment before! Who? None other than Jesus the Christ, the "lamb of God," having been slain! What is the Holy Spirit telling us here in these verses? John was priviledged to see the very moment that Jesus entered the throne room, right after ascending to heaven. This was undoubtedly the moment after He told Mary not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended.

John was therefore, seeing a vision into his past: back to about 33 AD. The clues are all there. First, Jesus was not at the right hand of the FAther. Why? Because He was down on earth, and had not yet been crucified. Next, we see the Holy Spirit still in the throne room, when verse six above says that He would be "sent forth into all the earth." And we know that Jesus said that as soon as He got back to heaven, He would send the Holy Spirit down. Next, we read about the search that failed: no man was found. Why was no man found worthy? Because Jesus had not yet been crucified, had not yet been buried, and had not yet rose from the dead (in the vision). At that point in time, no man on earth, in heaven, or in hell could possibly be found worthy. Therefore, we see that God showed John a vision of the throne room of John's past: about 60 years into John's past.

Why would God do this? God wanted to introduce John to the book. But rather than start after some of the seals had already been broken, God wanted to show John about the search for one worthy, and then have John see the moment that Jesus ascended to heaven. All this, then, sets the timing for the beginning of chapter 6. Before we get there, though, notice this one verse from chapter 5.

7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

We see then, that the first thing Jesus does, having ascended to the right hand of the Father, is take the book out of the hand of the Father.

Rev 6:1
1And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

It says, John saw when the lamb opened the first seal. So I must ask, WHEN? When was this first seal broken? Well, we just saw that Jesus took the scroll from the Father, the moment He arrived in heaven, having just ascended. Sorry, but you cannot find 2000 years between any of these verses. The Holy Spirit had it written this way - to show us that the first seal was broken as soon as Jesus got seated at the right hand of the Father in glory.

Why then would anyone think that this first seal was the beginning of "the tribulation," the 70th week of Daniel," or "the day of the Lord?" Please, let me answer that for you: THERE IS NO REASON! It is only tradition.

(Hint: to find the beginning of the 70th week, and the day of the Lord, please read Joel 2 and Isaiah 2, and compare with the 6th seal.)

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Ian wrote:

who could be raptured AFTER Isaiah 24 & Rev 16 total devastation?

what would be the point of doing a Rapture AFTER Isaiah 24 & Rev 16 wreak total devastation?[/b]

You are correct: the rapture comes before the "hurt" (Rev. 7:3) hurts the earth. However, the rapture is most certainly not found in Rev. 4:1. You will have to look elsewhere, as that happened in 95 AD.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

Revelation 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

"After this", is after the vision of the seven churches have been instructed; in which two of those churches were on the right track, and of the other five churches Jesus was displeased with. Two churches had the doctrines of Christ in them, and they knew who the "Kenites" are, and where they came. They knew the Kenites were of the synagogue of Satan and claimed to be Jews, when in fact they were lying and not Jews at all.

Jesus said, if you understand what the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia understood, and followed it, it is worth a crown of life to you.

This chapter starts out, "After this [after the messages to the churches] I looked, behold a door was opened in heaven:" This door is not on earth where the seven churches are, but in heaven. John is being carried from the Isle of Patmos to a specific time, or "earth dispensation" in the heavenlies. The key to understanding when this time period was, go to Revelation 1:10. "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day:" This is not in reference to a Saturday or Sunday. This is a record given by Jesus to John of events that will happen just before, or following that day. "That day" is the day of the sounding of the seventh trumpet when Jesus Christ returns.

John has already addressed the churches on the earth; then he looked up, and this door to heaven has opened. Now we can see through John's spiritual eyes and pen, what events are taking place there on the "day of the Lord", only the location of this event is in heaven.

"The first voice which I heard..." Who is this "I" in verse one? Of course it's John, the one writing this. Have you ever heard John referred to as "the Church"? Absolutely not. There is no church in heaven; not at this point. However, there will be, for heaven is where ever God is, and at the appointed time He is coming here to earth. Then there will be one church, one gathering place where the called-out ones shall meet.

"...I heard as it were of a trumpet"; [This is the last trumpet] "...talking with me,". The voice here is not speaking to the church, but it is directed to John. "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be here after." That refers to the "day" that is after our subject, "The Lords Day". "I will shew thee [John, singular]", transporting John and John only, in the spirit to this certain place in heaven.

There is no church in this verse going anyplace. There is only John being taken to heaven in the spirit, and hearing a voice like a trumpet calling him up. John was taken from 90 A.D. to a time beyond this year, 2007; for we are living in the final generation. The whole purpose for John writing this entire book of Revelation is to warn the people of this generation of the great deception the Antichrist, and his system would bring upon the earth before Jesus Christ's return. We are living in the generation of the "parable of the fig tree" and that is why Jesus told us to learn it, so that we would not be deceived.

This fourth chapter then tells us what is going to happen after this generation on the "Day of the Lord" in heaven.


http://www.theseason.org/revelation/revelation4.htm

 

[lecoop]

Rev 1
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

I John - This happened to John

companion in [the] tribulation - kjv leaves out "the." We should therefore NOT call the 70th week, or the "day of the Lord" "the tribulation." John was in "the tribulation" back in 95 AD.

I was in the Spirit - One can be "in the Spirit" or "out of the spirit." I have been "in the spirit" where I was seeing and hearing in the spiritual realm. Most of the time, I am "out" of the spirit. I MUCH prefer to be in the Spirit, but we cannot stay there. It is as the Spirit wills. When someone goes into a trance, they are "in the spirit." However, one can be "in the Spirit" without being in a trance. God can speak to us when we are "in the Spirit" and God can speak to us when we are not. When one is "in the spirit," we see and hear in the realm of the Spirit.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day - John is telling us when this event happened in his life. It happened "on the Lord's day." Is John telling us that he was transported 2000 years into the future and was "in" the "Day of the Lord?" No, not at all. It happened around 95 AD, and John is just telling us that it happened on a Sunday. It is possible that work on the Island of Patmos was suspended. John was free to pray, and as he was praying, he was taken into the realm of the Spirit. As soon as He was "in the Spirit," he heard a voice. He writes, "I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;" So he was hearing and seeing in the realm of the Spirit. Does this prove that he was transported through time 2000 years to the "day of the Lord?" No. For John, it was still 95 AD.

In Rev. 4:1, John writes, "1After this I looked..." John uses this phrase, "after this" or a similar one several times in his book, and he uses it only as a "transition" from one part of the vision to another. It does NOT carry the meaning, "after the church age."

John hears a voice saying "come up here," and is transported from earth to heaven. This is not so unusual. Many people from our own generation have had a similar experience. Jessie Duplantis, Roland Buck, Choo Thomas for examples. Does this mean that John was transported 2000 years into the future? No, it only means that he was transported from earth to heaven.

As we study chapters 4 and 5, we see that John is seeing a vision, but it is not a vision of the throne room of 95 AD, nor is it a vision of the throne room of 2000 years into John's future - no - it is a vision of the throne room of John's past - back to a time before Jesus rose from the dead.

It seems very unlikely then, that John was transported into the future, to the "day of the Lord." No, he saw "visions" of different time frames. Chapters 4 and 5 were of the time just before, during and just after Jesus' ascension to heaven. Later on, John sees events that will take place during the 70th week, and even later, events that will take place a 1000 years later. John was therefore not transported into the time of the Day of the Lord, but was only seeing visions of that time, and other times.

Therefore, it is most likely that John is telling us that this event happened on a Sunday, "the Lord's day."

Coop

 

[Cheryl]

To me there is no question in my mind or heart, Jesus talked about two different parts to His return.
1. The Rapture of the Church: That is those who have been bought by the Blood of the Lamb. We are saved from the wrath of the Lamb & that of God, Jesus took all of that for us on the Cross. Those who reject the Son of God will not be in that Trumpet call. Where the dead in Christ will rise fisrt & we who are a live at His call will rise to meet Him in the air. We have a promise here of His coming with there are no signs for His will come, we will hear Him the sinner will not. That is why this is called the Blessed Hope. Jesus said we are to look for Him not the anti-christ. We are the Bride of Christ, what would a woman do if her husband to be said " I love you honey, I need to go away for a while, but I will be back to get you" But as she waits & start to know He is coming but first He allows her to be hunted to be killed, to be a target of the anti-christ & demons, to suffer the trumpets & bowls judgments. Then to return & say "I'm here now I will show you my kingdom." No women on earth would go with a man who allowed her to be abused by his own hand, I know I was abused by a man for 22 yrs I would never go back to him, there is no trust. No that is not a loving husband who allows her to be beat up till she is black & blue & then beheaded. Jesus is our Redeemer read the Book of Ruth. Jesus paid that punishment for us on the Cross He was scared for us, we cannot go thought that on that promise alone. Oh sure the Church has suffered no doubt, but that is not the Great Tribulation of God Almight. I am waiting to here the Trumpet of the angle & Voice of Jesus Himself say as He did to John "Come up here!" PTL

2 Second Coming of Jesus Christ: First read the Book of Rev. when Jesus returns His feet touch this earth, in the Rapture His feet do not. His comes back with an army of those with pure white robes, these are not angles but that is the Church who come back with Him, we are the ones who were given the white robes, we are the redeemed. Also when He comes back it isn't the Church welcoming Him but the armies of the earth & anti=christ will be ready to fight Him which they can't. So where was the Church during the 7 years of Tribulation? well we were at the wedding feast of the Lamb, Jesus Christ & the Church.

No I will not fight over this, I know what I have read & what I've studied. All I can say is that one needs to read with the power of the Holy Spirit to teach what the Word has to say.
Any way I am sure that all will agree that He in deed is Coming is near & the Rapture is the next thing to happen, see ya there!
Cheryl

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Cheryl, I too wish not to argue over any of this either. I do agree there is much scripture to consider and reconcile. I want nothing better than to believe "we" will be whisked away at the first sign of danger, but I know this not to be true, as my siggy indicates.

We have a promise here of His coming with there are no signs for His will come,...

I'd love to believe there is such a promise, but I don't see it and if there is one, it sure wasn't offered up to those who knew and followed Him (ie, His disciples). He did, of course, promise them He would return for them.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

... what would a woman do if her husband to be said " I love you honey, I need to go away for a while, but I will be back to get you" But as she waits & start to know He is coming but first He allows her to be hunted to be killed, to be a target of the anti-christ & demons, to suffer the trumpets & bowls judgments.

I agree we are not subject to God's wrath, but be killed of by antichrists is not the Wrath of God. I have to "wonder" what the Apostles were thinking as they martyred. You do know they were tortured and killed in very horrific ways. They were waiting for His return too.

Jesus paid that punishment for us on the Cross He was scared for us, we cannot go thought that on that promise alone. Oh sure the Church has suffered no doubt, but that is not the Great Tribulation of God Almighty.

Jesus paid the price for our transgressions, yes, but He never promised us an escape route from tribulation. The Gospel is our weapon to aid in our enduring Tribulation.

The Great Tribulation, in whole, is not all from God; some of it is from Satan (albeit, God permits it). Some of it is the Wrath of God. Many times people want to lump it all together, when in fact Satan's persecution against believers is a separate event from the Wrath. One time frame, two differents withing that time frame.

You can guess by now I am not a believer in a pretribulation harpazo. Actually, I sort of believe we've been in some form of Tribulation for almost 2,000 years. I do believe we are either removed or protected before God's Wrath. That is a promise I can quote:

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[lecoop]

Vic wrote,

Actually, I sort of believe we've been in some form of Tribulation for almost 2,000 years.

: -))) You are in perfect agreement with John here. He was in "the tribulation" way back in 95 AD. It has continued in some area of the world ever since the church started. It will get worse and worse, until, at the time of the rapture, God calls it "great tribulation." (When people die for their testimony, it is "great" tribulation." How can it get any worse than if you die?")

Vic continued

I agree we are not subject to God's wrath, but be killed of by antichrists is not the Wrath of God. I have to "wonder" what the Apostles were thinking as they martyred. You do know they were tortured and killed in very horrific ways. They were waiting for His return too.

We would be killed if we were still here. Vic, can you pinpoint the beginning of the 70th week in Revelation, with assurity? If not, how then can you be sure whether or not the rapture will be before the beginning of the 70th week? I can assure you, most of those that call themselves "pretrib" have no idea where the 70th week, or "trib" actually begins.

You know well, as I have written it over and over, that the Holy Spirit pointed me to find the 70th week, "clearly marked," and told me how to find it. Most people that have read this disagree with it. I was reading a scripture a while ago, and thought of this.

1 Kings 13
8 And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:
9 For so was it charged me by the word of the LORD, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.


I'm sure you are familiar with this story. This prophet was absolutely sure of himself. He had heard the word of the Lord. God's word to him was so sure that He prophesied to the alter in front of the King, and the king was so mad that he commanded the prophet to be caught. But the king's arm dried up and he could not pull it back. The prophet prayed, God healed his arm, and the sign the prophet had given came to pass. This was a POWERFUL sign that shook the king and the nation. Then the prophet refused to eat with the king, because he also had the word of the Lord on that. He was SURE he had heard the word of the Lord. As you read verse 9 above, you can see that he was sure of what God had told him. This was not an "impression" or anything like that: no, he heard words, from God, and he obeyed them, up to a point. Yet when an older prophet lied to him, he did not obey the sure word of the Lord.

My point, made only to Vic, is this. I did not get some "impression." I did not "pick something up" in the spiritual realm. No, the word of the Lord came to me. It was words spoken to me. God said, "you can find the exact midpoint of the week, 'clearly marked' in Revelation." I did not miss what was said. I heard every word. I understood every word. God showed me where to look and I did, and found the exact midpoint, just as He had said to me.

Hearing God speak to me in words is not something that happens every day. Or every month. Or every year. I wish it did, but it does not. It has happened before, but years before.

Therefore, I am sure when I say that the midpoint of the week is the 7th trumpet. I am sure when I say that the beginning of the 70th week is the 7th seal. And I am sure when I say that the end of the 70th week is the 7th vial.

I write this, so that others can study, and see as I did, that these things are so. Of course, many will disagree, for various reasons.

Since the "trib" or the 70th week starts at the 7th seal, then we have from Rev 4:1 to Rev 7:17 for the rapture, if it will be a "pretrib" rapture. I challenge the readers to see if they can find the rapture, or proof of the rapture, between these two notations: Rev 4:1 to Rev 7:17. It is there, plain as day.

Cheryl, I agree with you. I agree that the rapture will take place before the 70th week. However, as soon as we are gone, the world goes nuts, and the man of sin will take over!

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

We would be killed if we were still here. Vic, can you pinpoint the beginning of the 70th week in Revelation, with assurity? If not, how then can you be sure whether or not the rapture will be before the beginning of the 70th week? I can assure you, most of those that call themselves "pretrib" have no idea where the 70th week, or "trib" actually begins.

LOL, you know where i place the 70th. week. In case you forgot, I believe it starts here and has no relation to the GT.

Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Mark 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

It started at the beginning of Jesus' ministry and ended at the conversion of Cornelius,
in Acts 10, 7 years later. End of Daniel's prophesy, just as the Reformers believed. 8-)

 

[MrVersatile48]

Jesus said, "In this world you will have tribulation"

The Bible says, "All who would live godly lives shall suffer persecution"

That is not the GREAT Tribulation of Revelation 6 onwards & Zechariah 14 & Joel 3 etc - what Jesus called in Matt 24, 'a time such as has never been before nor will be again'

Again, He comapred His return to both the days of Noah & of Lot

Both times, warnings were given @ judgements to come

Both times, believers were removed to safety before the judgements fell

Hence, when Jesus prophesied the awful, intensifyin,g accelerating 'birthpains', the reason He could then say, "When you see these things..don't be afraid, don't be alarmed..trust in God..trust in Me" is that birthpains - as in all species - only serve to bring on the Great Delivery - as in Matt 24:30-42, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 - see http://www.BibleGateway.org

Tell all ya friends & family

Even tell your enemies - I wouldn't wish the Great Trib on anuyone

& Hell is worse than Armageddon, because ity's eternal, conscious torment

Even if you were Bruce Lee, Arnie Schwarz, Hulk Hogan & Sly Stallone all rolled into one, you still wouldn't be a fraction tough enough to withstand eternal conscious torment - see Rvelation 20

Right now, unsaved readers, ask Jesus to forgive all the wrong things you've4 ever thought, said & domne

Ask Him to live in your heart as Saviour & Lord

For full assurance of salvation by the sheer grace of God, thru faith in Christ's once-for-all atoning sacrifice at Calvary, see John 3, Romans 3, Romans 10, Galatians 2:15-16 & Ephesians 2:8-9

& pass it on!

God bless!

Ian

 

[Cheryl]

Jesus said, "In this world you will have tribulation"

(The Bible says, "All who would live godly lives shall suffer persecution"

That is not the GREAT Tribulation of Revelation 6 onwards & Zechariah 14 & Joel 3 etc - what Jesus called in Matt 24, 'a time such as has never been before nor will be again'

Again, He comapred His return to both the days of Noah & of Lot

Both times, warnings were given @ judgements to come

Both times, believers were removed to safety before the judgements fell

Hence, when Jesus prophesied the awful, intensifyin,g accelerating 'birthpains', the reason He could then say, "When you see these things..don't be afraid, don't be alarmed..trust in God..trust in Me" is that birthpains - as in all species - only serve to bring on the Great Delivery - as in Matt 24:30-42, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 - see )

Amen to this statement which you wrote!
Cheryl

 

[lecoop]

Jesus said, "In this world you will have tribulation"

The Bible says, "All who would live godly lives shall suffer persecution"

That is not the GREAT Tribulation of Revelation 6 onwards & Zechariah 14 & Joel 3 etc - what Jesus called in Matt 24, 'a time such as has never been before nor will be again'

Again, He comapred His return to both the days of Noah & of Lot

Both times, warnings were given @ judgements to come

Both times, believers were removed to safety before the judgements fell

Hence, when Jesus prophesied the awful, intensifyin,g accelerating 'birthpains', the reason He could then say, "When you see these things..don't be afraid, don't be alarmed..trust in God..trust in Me" is that birthpains - as in all species - only serve to bring on the Great Delivery - as in Matt 24:30-42, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 - see http://www.BibleGateway.org

Tell all ya friends & family

Even tell your enemies - I wouldn't wish the Great Trib on anuyone

& Hell is worse than Armageddon, because ity's eternal, conscious torment

Even if you were Bruce Lee, Arnie Schwarz, Hulk Hogan & Sly Stallone all rolled into one, you still wouldn't be a fraction tough enough to withstand eternal conscious torment - see Rvelation 20

Right now, unsaved readers, ask Jesus to forgive all the wrong things you've4 ever thought, said & domne

Ask Him to live in your heart as Saviour & Lord

For full assurance of salvation by the sheer grace of God, thru faith in Christ's once-for-all atoning sacrifice at Calvary, see John 3, Romans 3, Romans 10, Galatians 2:15-16 & Ephesians 2:8-9

& pass it on!

God bless!

Ian

In general, a good post, Ian. However, I think you need to be more accurate! : -))

Where or rather when did Jesus say that this time of greatest tribulation ever would happen?

Matt 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Please notice when: Jesus said, "when you...see the abomination...then shall be great tribulation..." Therefore, the time of "great tribulation" will start right after the abomination; right after the beast/antichrist sits in the temple and declares that he is God.

Please tell me where in chapter 6 you would find any hint of the midpoint of the week? After all you said, "That is not the GREAT Tribulation of Revelation 6 onwards..." Better yet, let me show you. Where in Revelation do we find any hint of people fleeing into the wilderness, as per what Jesus instructed when people see the abomination?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness....

We see then, that Rev 12 is right after the abomination, not Revelation 6. In fact, the abomination takes place on earth at the moment that the 7th trumpet is sounded in heaven. That period of time Jesus spoke of then, will start right after the 7th trumpet has sounded. What do we find very soon after? Satan is cast out of heaven, and John is introduced to the beast.

The first few events is chapter 6 are separated by about 2000 years from the events in chapter 12. So to be more accurate, there is no time that Jesus titled as "the great tribulation." Man has added that title. "Daniel's 70th week" would be a much better title. What Jesus did do was tell us what life would be like during the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.

Other than this, good post! I sure don't plan on being around to see the beast start the abomination of desolation.

Coop

 

[biblecatholic]

in the days of Lot and Noah, the ones who were taken away were killed, the ones "left behind" were Lot and Noah.
and in 1 thess 4:17 Paul is saying "we who are alive, who are left," shall be caught up.

the rapture only happens once and at Christs second coming

 

[lecoop]

in the days of Lot and Noah, the ones who were taken away were killed, the ones "left behind" were Lot and Noah.
and in 1 thess 4:17 Paul is saying "we who are alive, who are left," shall be caught up.

the rapture only happens once and at Christs second coming

Sorry, but this will not be like the days of Lot, nor like the days of Noah, except the one point made by Jesus, that it will come suddenly. One day all will be well, and people will be marrying and giving in marriage, eating, sleeping; just living life to the fullest, as much as is possible. But suddenly, all will be changed! In the case of Noah, it started to rain. In the case of Lot, it started to rain fire and brimstone! In the case of the rapture, suddenly, 1/3 of the world's population will disappear! Why is this so hard to believe? Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place, and would then come and get us. We have been told by several that have visited heaven lately, that every mansion is complete, and in fact, all the preparations for the wedding supper are complete. It is time. We need to be looking up.

Coop

 

[biblecatholic]

Is that the only point Jesus was making? I disagree with your interpretation of that scripture. ! Thess 4:13-17

But notice, in verse 17, Paul says that "...we who are alive, who are left," shall be caught up. Remember that...those who are "left" get caught up to meet the Lord.

As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man...they ate, they drank, they married and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field, one is taken and one is left. Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken one is left."

First, Jesus' coming is being compared to the days of Noah and the days of Lot. After the flood, who was left? Noah and his family...the good guys...the bad guys were taken! After Sodom and Gomorrah went up in smoke, who was left? Lot and his daughters...the good guys...the bad guys were taken! Second, remember 1 Thess? It says that those who are "left" get to meet Jesus in the air. The good guys are left behind to meet Jesus.


Jesus will not return to get just the Christians in the air make a u-turn then go back to heaven then come again at the end because that would be 3 comings to earth.(1 thess 4:13-17) Jesus only comes back once Christs coming will have arcangel descend from heaven with a cry of command and will sound the trumpets and all who are left will be caught up(raptured)

The rapture only happens at the Second Coming. I don't think anyone who claims the "end is near" has any knowledge from God. Maybe they know of the end of the world as we know it(chastisement)I could believe that. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only..

John Nelson Darby the founder of this new type of Rapture thought the world was going to end in his time too. The apostles thought Christ was coming back in their time. No one knows