The rapture of the Church

[lecoop]

Coop, Thanks for your comments. I pretty much agree with you. Getting to know if one can lose their salvation, I think we must look at Heb. 10:26-29 and Heb. 6:4-6. If you went to Rhema, I am sure you have studied the Book authored by Hagin called The Triumph Church. I think what he wrote about this issue is credible. There are some like Holiness Pentacostals that teach that one can lose their salvation at the drop of a hat. I once got involved with this group and left when I discovered what they believed. Bottom line, I have trusted Jesus for a very long time and will continue to Trust Him and trust that I will be raptured. The best way to keep the faith is to go to Church and study our Bibles.

Thanks again Brother, and may God bless your socks off. We are the head annd not the tail. We are more than Conquerers.

Golfjack

Yes, we are more than conquerers! No weapon formed against us shall prosper!

You mentioned "holiness." There are several church denominations that call themselves holiness. I grew up in the Wesleyan church. They too, believe that one sin will cause you to lose your salvation! John Wesley was an amazing man, but revelation knowledge of the word was pretty slim back then. I agree with you on Hebrews 6. The truth is, if the Holy Spirit ever leaves, He will NEVER come back.

Ultimately, I believe that God will look on the heart. Those pure in heart will rise up to meet Him in the air. In that, we are in agreement! Hallelujah!

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

lecoop

Thanks, Onelove. You have proved my point exactly. With your current beliefs, if Jesus came tonight, you would not be prepared. You do not expect Him to come. You are not looking for His coming.

Let me answer your question this way (Hyperthetically speaking)if Christ came back right now there is no doubt in my my that I will be just fine,for the simple fact that I belong to Him,and I have confessed with my mouth that He did die for me and was raised on the third day.And He is my savior

But thats not the point Im trying to make,let me put it this way,if one were to die believing in the rapture,that person will not be lost,if He believes in Christ,the danger of the rapture is for those living in the final generation,the ones that Christ said would not pass(generation of the fig tree)

Matthew 24:34
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

We are living in the generation being spoken of in those verses

Why would you think Jesus was talking about the church in the Olivet discourse, when He was speaking to Jews under the old covenant about their final week? At that point in time, the Gentile church was not in existence, and would not be, until God watched to see if the Jews would accept Him as their Savior and Messiah, after He died for them.

Why do most all people seperate the Church from the Jews?To sit here and say the Olivet discourse was meant only for the Jews is foolish.Christ said that He was not coming back until after the tribulation, period and He was'nt just talking to the Jews

Christ paid the penalty for all, not just the Jews and if they have not or will not accept Him than they are lost just like anybody else,the Church is a many membered body consisting of Jew an Gentile alike and anyone else who wants to be a part. If a jew accepts Christ than they belong to that body

Definition of Church from strongs

3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body

4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

We both know that the verses in 2 Thes.2 can be seen different ways, again depending on what preconceived glasses one is wearing.

I don't think it can be seen in different ways I feel it means just what it says,so tell me What way do you see it?

What if the church was not even in His mind during this chapter?

This chapter was written for all that would listen,again the question was when is the end and when shall you return,it did not say nor did it imply,when shall you return for the Jews

Endure what to the end? And who will do this enduring? Who is being spoken to here? It should be obvious that only those on earth will have to endure. One should be able to see that much of this discourse is about Daniel's 70th week, with the abomination taking place in the middle of that week.

Endure all that Christ said would happen,you are correct only those that are on earth will have to endure,and since there won't be a rapture, everybody will be here,all those living at that time anyway

Wait! Who's week is it? Do we call it "Paul's 70th week, meaning it is for Gentiles?" It is called the week of Paul's trouble? No, it is the week of Jacob's trouble. In other words, this week is God dealing with Israel, NOT the Gentile church! Therefore, the "He" that must endure to the end is not speaking to me or to the church at all. This is pointed straight at the Jews, or those living in Israel at the time of the end. This is rightly dividing the word of truth.

Again why are you seperating Israel from the Church,futhermore do you even know who Israel is?

Who is going to see this abomination? Will I see it? Will you see it? No, Jesus is speaking to those living in Judea. He said, "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains..." Are you living in Judea? Why then do you think this is speaking to the church?

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand"

This reverence to Daniel the prophet, Makes the book of Daniel part of the New Testament. This reference is directed to Daniel 9:27.

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

Daniel 9:27; "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace. He will say, I am Jesus whom ye have been waiting for, and I have come to bring peace to the world, and the world will be brought to peace and prosperity by Satan, the Antichrist. I feel that this time of world peace will come in a matter of months, or a few years. It will come though.

If we compare verse 30 with Revelation, we see that it is speaking of Jesus coming on the white horse in Rev. 19. If you understand John's chronology, you will know that this is after the 70th week has finished. Who then, is the "they" in verse 30? It is not the church! This is speaking to the same people that the entire chapter is pointed to: Israel. Where will Jesus descend to? Israel. Will the church be here on earth to see Jesus descend on the white horse? Of course not, because we will have been in heaven for the previous 7 years, and will have just finished the marriage of the lamb, and the marriage supper, all done in heaven. We will be coming back with Him, not on the earth watching Him.

Herein lies your problem you still insit on seperating Israel and the Church,so my question to you is ,if that entire chapter was not written for you,why should you read it,and thats why you can't understand it,because you don't believe it was written for you.

Now for my last point
Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."

If anyone has to tell you that Christ is here,I was jut told not to believe it,you really don't understand how deceptive satan will be,let me help you out

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

The elect of God are a very special people(and Im not talking about Jews)so if they are going to be here,what makes you think you won't be?

When Satan appears, he will come showing all his supernatural wonders. As it is written in Revelation 13:113, 14; "And he [Satan, the Antichrist] doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire [lightning bolts] come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men." [13] "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast should be killed." [14]

Satan is an supernatural person, and you can stand against him if you are prepared from the word of God. He tells us not to fret and worry, and not to even premeditate our words, when called up to give account of ourselves, for the Holy Spirit will place the words within our mouths, and give is the words to say at the right time.

 

[lecoop]

lecoop

Why would you think Jesus was talking about the church in the Olivet discourse, when He was speaking to Jews under the old covenant about their final week? At that point in time, the Gentile church was not in existence, and would not be, until God watched to see if the Jews would accept Him as their Savior and Messiah, after He died for them.

Why do most all people seperate the Church from the Jews?To sit here and say the Olivet discourse was meant only for the Jews is foolish.Christ said that He was not coming back until after the tribulation, period and He was'nt just talking to the Jews

Due to shortness of time, I will answer just this part. I guess I could reverse the question: why do you think Jesus was speaking to the church, since it did not exist at that time? However, let's look.

Matt. 24
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

It is the church that will preach the gospel in all the world. I will admit to that.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

A hypethetical question: if the church is removed before the "tribulation" or 70th week, would this be speaking to the church? Who is the "ye?" Isn't that who is being addressed here? Of course, this is speaking directly to those living in Jerusalem and surrounding areas.

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

My point exactly: we don't live in Judea. This is speaking to Jews living in Judea at that point in time.

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

All referring to those living in Judea.

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

When? "15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation..." This is speaking of the midpoint of the week. Again, what if the church was already in heaven? Would this be referring to the church? We have already seen that Jesus is pointing this straight to those living in Judea. In other words, straight to Israel, not to the church.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Then when? During the last 3 1/2 years of the 70th week.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

John tells us this in Rev 13: the false prophet shows up to deceive.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Pointing back to the previous verse: false prophets.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Points directly to the moment that Jesus descends on the white horse. Very soon after the 70th week has ended. Notice that at the moment of His coming, many carcases will be left. Not a "rapture" of the church. I believe it is the parable of the tares.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Again pointing to the second coming.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is not the rapture, but God bringing all the Jews/Israel back to Israel. He said He would do it in one day. It cannot be the rapture, for John shows us the raptured church in heaven, before the 70th week even starts. It cannot be the rapture, for Paul tells us that the church has no appointment with wrath. WE covered about 16 verses, and one may pertain to the church. neither does the rest of the chapter pertain to the church. It is about the day of His coming. The church will be coming back with Him, for we will have been in heaven during this time. Sorry, but John tells us that the time for the marriage supper is before Jesus descends.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote,

Why do most all people seperate the Church from the Jews?To sit here and say the Olivet discourse was meant only for the Jews is foolish.Christ said that He was not coming back until after the tribulation, period and He was'nt just talking to the Jews

Christ paid the penalty for all, not just the Jews and if they have not or will not accept Him than they are lost just like anybody else,the Church is a many membered body consisting of Jew an Gentile alike and anyone else who wants to be a part. If a jew accepts Christ than they belong to that body

Definition of Church from strongs

3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body

4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

I agree with your difinitions of the church. But you miss the whole point: some prophecy is about the church, such as 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Some prophecy is related to Jews, or those living in Israel:

Matt 24
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Jeremiah 31
6 For there shall be a day when the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim, "arise, and let us go up to Zion, to the LORD our God."'
7 For thus says the LORD: "sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations; proclaim, give praise, and say, "O LORD, save Your people, The remnant of Israel!'
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the ends of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and the one who labors with child, together; a great throng shall return there.

10"Hear the word of the LORD, O nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, "He who scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him as a shepherd does his flock.'

This prophecy ofJeremiah is not pointed to the church at all. It is pointed directly to the descendants of Jacob. I personally believe that this prophecy points directly to "the elect" that are gathered at Jesus' second coming: "they shall gather together his elect." Please note that it is done in "a day."

Understanding who is being spoken to or about, is basic to a correct understanding prophecy.

Certainly there are many scriptures concerning the church in the last days. But there are also scriptures concerning Israel or Jacob, and "the nations." These are the three basic groups of people that God addresses.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote,

Coop:
[quote:b6ec6]We both know that the verses in 2 Thes.2 can be seen different ways, again depending on what preconceived glasses one is wearing.

I don't think it can be seen in different ways I feel it means just what it says,so tell me What way do you see it?[/quote:b6ec6]

Paul is telling them that the day of the Lord (events from the 7th seal on to Rev. chapter 19 and beyond) could not possibly have come, and they could not possibly be "in" the day of the Lord, because that day, the day of the Lord, could not come unless the man of sin was revealed. And the man of sin could not be revealed because there was something "hindering" or holding down his revealing. When that someone or something is taken out of the way, then, and only then, could the man of sin be revealed. And that someone or something will be "taken out of the way," at the apostasia, or the departure. Paul is telling us that the man of sin cannot be revealed unto the church has departed. I think this is what Paul is saying, because later he writes, "now ye know what withholdeth [or what is restraining or holding down] that he might be revealed in his time."

That being said, I have said many times before, this is an ambiguous verse, and should not be used as a stand alone verse for doctrine. The Greek texts we have do not agree.

coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote,

Coop
[quote:78a45]What if the church was not even in His mind during this chapter?

This chapter was written for all that would listen,again the question was when is the end and when shall you return,it did not say nor did it imply,when shall you return for the Jews [/quote:78a45]

If the rapture takes place before the 70th week starts, and it certainly will, because we have no appintment with His wrath, then indeed, He does return for the Jews, for the battle of Armageddon, and to set up His kingdom. Please note:

Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Notice the phrase, "the marriage of the Lamb is come..." This is saying that it is about to start - right then! Not after a horse ride. Now notice the highlighted phrase of verse 9. This is telling us that the marriage is over, and it is now time for the marriage supper. If the church was still on earth, they would miss these events, for they surely take place in heaven.

coop
[quote:78a45]Endure what to the end? And who will do this enduring? Who is being spoken to here? It should be obvious that only those on earth will have to endure. One should be able to see that much of this discourse is about Daniel's 70th week, with the abomination taking place in the middle of that week.

Endure all that Christ said would happen,you are correct only those that are on earth will have to endure,and since there won't be a rapture, everybody will be here,all those living at that time anyway[/quote:78a45]

How easily you disagree with Paul.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote,

Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

The elect of God are a very special people(and Im not talking about Jews)so if they are going to be here,what makes you think you won't be?

The [not born again] Jews are just as much God's elect as is the church.

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

I agree with you that the man of sin's deception will be almost universal, except to those whose names are written in heaven. John tells us as much, saying "all the world wondered after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast."

However, as I have said so many times, this only pertains to those that are here on earth. What about this group? Does this verse include them?

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop

If the rapture takes place before the 70th week starts, and it certainly will, because we have no appintment with His wrath, then indeed, He does return for the Jews, for the battle of Armageddon, and to set up His kingdom. Please note:

The second coming is the time when Christ returns period.Nowhere is it written that Christ returns twice more,nowhere!He returns at the 7th trump,which is the last one,the same one Paul speaks about,which is after the tribulation of those days as stated by Christ Himself.

Again as I have said in a post I just posted,you cannot seperate the Jews from the Church,Christ died for all that would believe upon Him,and the Church is that many membered body of believers,and that includes the Jews also,if they believe,because if they do then they are now a part of the Church,and if they don't they like anyone else stands the chance of losing their souls.

How easily you disagree with Paul.

How easily you disagree with Christ

Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

The Jews are not the elect persay,the elect are those that understand the true word of God,be it Jew or Gentile.

Now how can you say I disagree with Paul,when it was Paul that said Chist would not return until after the antichrist has been revealed?

A hypethetical question: if the church is removed before the "tribulation" or 70th week, would this be speaking to the church? Who is the "ye?" Isn't that who is being addressed here? Of course, this is speaking directly to those living in Jerusalem and surrounding areas.

The Ye is everyone that understands,for the whole world will see satan standing in the temple pretending to be Christ,and the majority will be deceived,be ye a Jew or Gentile

Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand"

The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.

The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.

The world will be deceived when Satan claims himself to be Christ, for he does have supernatural powers, and he will use them to to draw the peoples of the world to come to peace. He will say, I am Jesus whom ye have been waiting for, and I have come to bring peace to the world, and the world will be brought to peace and prosperity by Satan, the Antichrist.

Matthew 24:16 "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

Judea is that land or country that Jerusalem was the capital of. Today we would call it the nation of Israel, on both sides of the Jordan river. It is the place where the major peace treaty is being signed, and the largest part of world conflict is over. If you are in that nation, Jesus is telling you to flee into the "mountains", or nations of the world, but get out of there. This is not when Titus of Rome walked in, but it is the start of the Great Tribulation, when God Himself shall rain down on that city of Jerusalem, and the nation. God is letting you know exactly where not to be, at His second coming.

All referring to those living in Judea.

I will agree,this is talking about those living in Judea,however,all those living in Judea are not Jews,and all Jews do not live in Judea

When? "15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation..." This is speaking of the midpoint of the week. Again, what if the church was already in heaven? Would this be referring to the church? We have already seen that Jesus is pointing this straight to those living in Judea. In other words, straight to Israel, not to the church.

Again the Church is a body of believers,Jew or Gentile,and again you cannot seperate the two.
And again I ask do you even know who true Israel is?Let me give you a hint,you can read about them in the book of James,and trust me they are not all Jews

Points directly to the moment that Jesus descends on the white horse. Very soon after the 70th week has ended. Notice that at the moment of His coming, many carcases will be left. Not a "rapture" of the church. I believe it is the parable of the tares.

Again there is only ONE second coming,if Christ had came before this time would not this be His third coming?

Again pointing to the second coming.

Again the second coming is just that,the second coming,there will be no rapture before this.

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is not the rapture, but God bringing all the Jews/Israel back to Israel. He said He would do it in one day. It cannot be the rapture, for John shows us the raptured church in heaven, before the 70th week even starts. It cannot be the rapture, for Paul tells us that the church has no appointment with wrath. WE covered about 16 verses, and one may pertain to the church. neither does the rest of the chapter pertain to the church. It is about the day of His coming. The church will be coming back with Him, for we will have been in heaven during this time. Sorry, but John tells us that the time for the marriage supper is before Jesus descends.

You are very much correct,this is not a rapture,because there won't be one,this is when we all gather back to Christ,at His second coming.

This is the seventh and the last trumpet, and there will be no coming by Christ until that time, except the Spirit of God working within you. This is the time that the angels of God will go to every corner of the earth, and even to the heavens to gather the elect of God. Are you one of God's elect? Are you going to be in the field working for God, or wandering after the fake Christ?

You are also correct in that the Church is not appointed to wrath,but why do you asume that Christ cannot protect His own from this wrath while we are here on earth,When His wrath came upon Egypt in the form of plagues and such,did He not protect the children of Israel?This will be no different

Now lets see who comes back with Him

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

These are those whom Christ shall bring with Him,not those that are supposidly raptured,these are those that have already died,these people are in Heaven now right now,they have not been raptured,rather they died believing in Christ.We can read about them in Rev,for they are the souls under the alter.

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

These people have not been raptured,yet they are in Heaven,this again is who Christ will bring with him,at His second coming,and they will gather with those believers who are on the earth at this time(the second coming)this is when we all shall be changed at the 7th trump,not before,and not at some rapture.

 

[lecoop]

Onelove wrote,

The second coming is the time when Christ returns period.Nowhere is it written that Christ returns twice more,nowhere!He returns at the 7th trump,which is the last one,the same one Paul speaks about,which is after the tribulation of those days as stated by Christ Himself.

Of course, the "second coming" is the second time He comes. The third coming is the third time He comes. At least, we both know the rules of English.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Is this a "coming?" He descends from heaven, and we meet him in the air. It must therefore be a "coming." Since He came once to die, this is the 2nd coming, being the second time He comes to earth. You say He comes at the 7th trump. Is that a "coming?" (I disagree with you because there is NOTHING at the 7th trumpet that gives that idea. You confuse the "last" trump with the 7th.) But, for the sake of comings, let's say you are right. Therefore, this is the 3rd coming.

Rev 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Note they "followed" Him, showing that He is leaving heaven. Where to? Of course to earth, for that is where the "nations" are. Now we are up to the 4th coming.

Some mistakenly say that they are all the same coming. Oh, really?

What other verses tell us what his visable second coming will be?

He will come on a white horse:

Rev 19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

HIs coming will be BRIGHT!

2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

His coming will be as lightning in a dark night. Everyone would see lightning flash at night, if they are awake.

Matthew 24:27
For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

All on earth will see His coming. He will come with GREAT glory.

Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.



His coming will be sudden, without warning.

Mark 13:36
Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

Matthew 24:39
And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Now compare with:

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Where is the lightning? Where is he white horse? Where is the Glory, and brightness? Where does it say that eveyone sees Him? Where are those that morn? They are not mentioned, because that is not what this coming will be like. The world will not even know it happened, until they find people missing. When will this 1 Thes. event occur?

1 Thes 5
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


First we notice here that we have no appointment with wrath. You think He protects us - I think we are gone completely. But notice what Paul goes on to say: we have no appointment with wrath, "but to obtain salvation." What salvation? Here but protected? Can't be! Look what Paul says next: "that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." Now take this as a whole: "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation ... that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."

Is not this just what the rapture is all about? He went to prepare a place,and said He would come and get us and take us there. Paul says "we should live together with him" and we would forever be with the Lord. Will those that miss the rapture, and are hiding out from the beast, be "together with Him?" Not hardly! But the church, in heaven for the marriage supper, will be together with Him.

There is therefore, a coming that is not in great glory, and is not with lightning, and is not for the purpose of war (battle of armageddon). It is the coming for the saints. Oh! Mentioning this we should notice this verse:

1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

How many saints are coming with Him? ALL! Count them: ALL! Oh, sorry, but they are so many, they are uncountable! This means, NOT just those that have died in Christ, but ALL!

Therefore, there is a coming, where Jesus comes FOR His saints, and another coming when He comes WITH His saints. Believe it.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

lecoop

Of course, the "second coming" is the second time He comes. The third coming is the third time He comes. At least, we both know the rules of English.

My point is, the 2nd is the last,there is nothing in between,in other words the 2nd coming is the Day of the Lord.

Is this a "coming?" He descends from heaven, and we meet him in the air. It must therefore be a "coming." Since He came once to die, this is the 2nd coming, being the second time He comes to earth. You say He comes at the 7th trump. Is that a "coming?" (I disagree with you because there is NOTHING at the 7th trumpet that gives that idea. You confuse the "last" trump with the 7th.) But, for the sake of comings, let's say you are right. Therefore, this is the 3rd coming.

Yes this is a coming,the 2nd and last as a matter of fact,the 7th trump is the last,unless of course you can show where there's an 8th,and for the sake of comings,there is no 3rd one

 

[n2thelight]

coop

Note they "followed" Him, showing that He is leaving heaven. Where to? Of course to earth, for that is where the "nations" are. Now we are up to the 4th coming.

Some mistakenly say that they are all the same coming. Oh, really?

What other verses tell us what his visable second coming will be?

Yes they did follow Him for these are they that He brings with Him,and oh but they are the same (2nd coming)

You err in that you assume just because some verses don't mention the exact same thing as another,they are not speaking of the same event,you are wrong in this assumption

When He returns every eye shall see and very knee shall bow,again 2nd coming,and again nothing(rapture)before

Where is the lightning? Where is he white horse? Where is the Glory, and brightness? Where does it say that eveyone sees Him? Where are those that morn? They are not mentioned, because that is not what this coming will be like. The world will not even know it happened, until they find people missing. When will this 1 Thes. event occur?

Like I said above you err in this thought

How many saints are coming with Him? ALL! Count them: ALL! Oh, sorry, but they are so many, they are uncountable! This means, NOT just those that have died in Christ, but ALL!

Therefore, there is a coming, where Jesus comes FOR His saints, and another coming when He comes WITH His saints. Believe it.

Let me see if I can help you out,there is but one more coming,coming with His saints and for His saints happen at the same time.The saints that have already died and the one that are alive when He comes,why are you making something so simple difficult?

And another question how can satan deceive anybody into believing he was Christ if the Chuch has gone off into space somewhere,I would think that very hard to accomplish

I Thessalonians 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

Then again, at the very end of this chapter; "at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints." This is the subject of this book: The return of Jesus Christ with all His saints. He will then establish His holy kingdom on earth, and this will start what is called the Millennium kingdom [age].

When will that be?

It is at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet. There are traditions that men teach that differ from God's Word, and you have the choice of which you will believe. Many also just don't care. On judgment day when you stand accountable for your belief, or lack of it, the church traditions will not matter, nor will they be there. You will stand and face the Heavenly Father alone. You will be forced to give answer why you did not listen to His Word.

 

[n2thelight]

coop

Where is the lightning? Where is he white horse? Where is the Glory, and brightness? Where does it say that eveyone sees Him? Where are those that morn? They are not mentioned, because that is not what this coming will be like. The world will not even know it happened, until they find people missing. When will this 1 Thes. event occur?

You err in that you assume just because some verses don't mention the exact same thing as another,they are not speaking of the same event,you are wrong in this assumption

Here is why you err

"9. Christ comes for His own, vs. Christ comes with His own"
The "for" vs. "with" argument meets the same fate as the rest. Ice's own "rapture passage" speaks of Christ's coming both "for" and "with" His saints at the same coming. Paul wrote those who "sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH Him" when He descends from heaven FOR the living (1 Thess. 4:14). What Ice and other pre-tribbers fail to see is the single second coming of Christ has two parts. In the first part, Christ descends from heaven with His angels and the souls of those who "sleep in Jesus." This first descent is from heaven to the air, or just above the clouds. It is at this time He sounds the trumpet, raises the bodies of the dead saints, and catches up the living. All are assembled and "meet" Christ in the air. Then the whole multitude of risen and changed saints is displayed to the whole world in great glory against the backdrop of a darkened sun and moon, as they all descend with Him from the air to the Mount of Olives. In the post-trib scenario, Christ comes WITH His saints who have died  the souls of those who "sleep in Jesus" accompanying His descent from heaven to the clouds above the earth. After then sounding the trumpet, raising the dead believers, and dispatching the angels to "catch up" the living who remain, He descends with ALL His saints to the Mount of Olives. The same coming from heaven to the clouds is FOR "we who are alive and remain." And it is WITH those who "sleep in Jesus." Then all the saints will be revealed to the world in glory with Christ, and descend with Him to the Mount of Olives. Once again, Ice has established a false dichotomy which cannot be sustained with Scripture. All the details can be easily harmonized into a single account.

"10. He comes in the air, vs. He comes to the earth"
This argument is really the same as the previous one. A two-step descent of the Lord explains both His coming to the air, and His coming to the earth. Christ's stop in mid-air to gather together His living elect is merely for the purpose of transportation and collecting the bodies of the dead in Christ from all over the globe. Gathering all the elect from the remote places of the earth to a single location, where we will be revealed to the world in glory with Christ at His coming, is a necessary step. The "rapture" is simply an integral part of the second coming. Coming to the air and coming to the earth are not mutually exclusive, but are easily harmonized into a single event. Any descent to earth demands coming to the air first. It certainly does not demand a different coming, as Ice suggests.

"11. He claims His bride, vs. He comes with His bride"
According to Rev. 19:7, the Bride has just "made herself ready" at the very close of the tribulation! That is when the people in heaven announce that the time for the "Marriage of the Lamb is come." According to A.T. Robertson: " Is come (hlyen). Prophetic aorist, come at last." The aorist tense implies a suddenness, completeness, or wholeness of the event. In this case, the time for the "marriage of the Lamb" has just arrived. Also, regarding the Bride's making herself ready, "made ready" is also aorist active indicative, implying she has just now finally made herself ready. Immediately, heaven opens and Christ descends. Contrary to what pre-tribbers think, the marriage of the Lamb is not said to occur in heaven. The scene in the first part of Revelation 19 is that of the Groom about to depart to go and fetch His bride. That is the reason for the excitement and anticipation in heaven. The bride has made herself ready. The time for the marriage has finally come! If Christ had come to claim His bride at the beginning of the tribulation in Revelation as Ice thinks, then why the seven year delay before she is finally ready to be married? It is much better to conclude that the exclamation at the very end of the tribulation, the Bride has "made herself ready" for the wedding, and the time for the "marriage of the Lamb" has finally arrived, both indicating a post-trib wedding. If the Bride's becoming ready and the marriage are post-trib, then the "claiming" of the bride at the rapture is more likely to be post-trib as well. Otherwise we have the extremely awkward scenario of Christ's coming for His Bride seven years before she is ready for the wedding, and taking her into His house seven years prior to their being married! Once again, Ice has assumed what he is trying to prove. And his assumptions flow counter to the facts revealed in Revelation, and with the Jewish wedding customs.

"12. Only His own see Him, vs. Every eye shall see Him"
Where does Ice get the idea that only believers see Christ at His coming? No passage of Scripture says so. In fact, John anticipated the rapture when joyful expectation when he wrote, "Behold He comes with clouds! and every eye shall see Him..." (Rev. 1:7). Ice is fabricating "facts" in order to allege "mutually exclusivity" of other facts stated in Scripture.

http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_20 ... e2_2b.html

 

[lecoop]

onelove wrote,

My point is, the 2nd is the last,there is nothing in between,in other words the 2nd coming is the Day of the Lord.

Who said Jesus can only come one more time? I think I will take God's word for this. I see more than one coming.

Yes this is a coming,the 2nd and last as a matter of fact,the 7th trump is the last,unless of course you can show where there's an 8th,and for the sake of comings,there is no 3rd one

Then for the rest of eternity, there can be no more trumpets, and no more trumpet blasts. Can you see the angels, traveling throughout heaven and earth, taking all the trumpets and destroying them? For if one trumpet is left, and even if one small child made a small sound on one - then God is a liar. And heaven forbid that someone would play one of Phil Driscoll's cds, or an old tape, for again, God would become a liar. The "last trump" would then no longer be the "last trump." That is, if you insist that this is Paul's meaning. How ever, if Paul meant the last of a series, then all that I said is silly. The angels will not have to collect all the trumpets in existance. God will not become a liar, for God never said that there will never be any more trumpet sounds. By putting too much emphasis on one verse, and taking a wrong meaning of that verse, then you are forced to take a wrong meaning for the event of the 7th trumpet in Revelation, trying to force John to say that Jesus returns then. Please, find his return in these verses? Show us where?

Rev. 10
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Now compare to His real coming:

Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

If you insist that He comes at the 7th trump, then please so us where He goes back to heaven, to get on the white horse.

Can you see how missing the true meaning of one verse causes the meaning of other verses to be twisted? You are trying to force a meaning onto Paul's "last trump" that is simple not warrented.

If you read and understand John's chronology, after the 7th trumpet, there is about 3 1/2 years of time left in the 70th week. Do you really think that Jesus will come and take the 42 months of authority He promised the beast, away from Him? Then you make God out to be a liar. Jesus CANNOT come until after his 42 months is over. That time will not be over until the 7th vial is poured out. Did you not notice that the account of the white horse is in chapter 19, not chapter 11, not chapter 12, not chapter 13, not chapter 14, not chapter 15, not chapter 16...... nto until chapter 19. And there is a reason for this. John shows Him returning to earth, COMING" to earth, "immediately after the tribulation of those days" exactly when Jesus showed Him coming. You want to get Him to earth, before "the tribulation of those days." Sorry, it won't work. Did you not notice that the woman flees into the wilderness immediately after the 7th trumpet? (Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains... .) The 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the week ,sounded in heaven, at the same moment that the abomintion will play out on earth. That is why John shows the woman fleeing right after the 7th trumpet. The 42 months given to the beast must come after this. How amazing: John shows us the beast in chapter 13, after the 7th trumpet has sounded. The seven vials must be poured out after this. How amazing: John shows us the seven trumpets being poured out in chapter 16, after the 7th trumpet has sounded.

Any doctrine or belief that must re-arrange the God given chronology of Revelation is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

onelove wrote,

9. Christ comes for His own, vs. Christ comes with His own"
The "for" vs. "with" argument meets the same fate as the rest. Ice's own "rapture passage" speaks of Christ's coming both "for" and "with" His saints at the same coming. Paul wrote those who "sleep in Jesus will God bring WITH Him" when He descends from heaven FOR the living (1 Thess. 4:14). What Ice and other pre-tribbers fail to see is the single second coming of Christ has two parts. In the first part, Christ descends from heaven with His angels and the souls of those who "sleep in Jesus." This first descent is from heaven to the air, or just above the clouds. It is at this time He sounds the trumpet, raises the bodies of the dead saints, and catches up the living. All are assembled and "meet" Christ in the air. Then the whole multitude of risen and changed saints is displayed to the whole world in great glory against the backdrop of a darkened sun and moon, as they all descend with Him from the air to the Mount of Olives. In the post-trib scenario, Christ comes WITH His saints who have died  the souls of those who "sleep in Jesus" accompanying His descent from heaven to the clouds above the earth. After then sounding the trumpet, raising the dead believers, and dispatching the angels to "catch up" the living who remain, He descends with ALL His saints to the Mount of Olives. The same coming from heaven to the clouds is FOR "we who are alive and remain." And it is WITH those who "sleep in Jesus." Then all the saints will be revealed to the world in glory with Christ, and descend with Him to the Mount of Olives. Once again, Ice has established a false dichotomy which cannot be sustained with Scripture. All the details can be easily harmonized into a single account.

I could put it the same way you do. What you fail to see is that Christ comes with His saints (those dead in Christ) and for His saints (those that are alive and remain) to take all the church to heaven, to escape His wrath on earth, and for the marriage supper of the lamb. After the 70th week is completed, we all come (remember, I showed you the "all") back to earth on white horses. This fits perfectly with John 14, where Jesus said He goes to prepare a place for us. We will go to that place for the entire 70th week.This also fits perfectly with John, where he shows us a crowd without number, in heaven, before the 70th week starts. Paul said that we have no appointment with His wrath. Thererfore, Jesus, Paul and John are in total agreement. There is no "false dichotomy" here.


"

10. He comes in the air, vs. He comes to the earth"
This argument is really the same as the previous one. A two-step descent of the Lord explains both His coming to the air, and His coming to the earth. Christ's stop in mid-air to gather together His living elect is merely for the purpose of transportation and collecting the bodies of the dead in Christ from all over the globe. Gathering all the elect from the remote places of the earth to a single location, where we will be revealed to the world in glory with Christ at His coming, is a necessary step. The "rapture" is simply an integral part of the second coming. Coming to the air and coming to the earth are not mutually exclusive, but are easily harmonized into a single event. Any descent to earth demands coming to the air first. It certainly does not demand a different coming, as Ice suggests.

The scriptures certainly do not demand a "two-step" descent of the Lord either. Please show me a scripture where the saints are revealed to the world.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

lecoop

Who said Jesus can only come one more time? I think I will take God's word for this. I see more than one coming.

When He comes the 2nd times He comes to set up His kingdom here on earth,this will be the Day of the Lord, ie His 2nd coming so if He sets up His kingdom at this time,and He will why does He need to come a 3rd 4th or 5th time?Once He gets here He never leaves,never.

How ever, if Paul meant the last of a series, then all that I said is silly. The angels will not have to collect all the trumpets in existance. God will not become a liar, for God never said that there will never be any more trumpet sounds.

Last means just that,last,if its a series as you imply,then where are the first second etc of these other series?

Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:"

The angel swore by Almighty God. The thunders covered the full cycle of all events about to happen, but the angel is announcing the close of this earth age: This earth age is over and finished.

The seven seals took us to the end of this earth age, the age where man lives in the flesh body. The earth continues on into eternity, but man no longer will live in the flesh following the close of this earth age.

The seven trumpets exist in the same time frame as the seven seals, and end with the "day of the Lord". However, we are still in the sixth trumpet during this part of the vision. So then, what are the thunders?

Thunder is the report, or sound caused by the movement of lightning. The lightning is the action that took place, while the thunder follows later. The thunder is indicating the distance in time that has passed since the action had occurred. By the time you here the thunder, the lightning is long past.

This is why the thunders are sealed. By the time the thunders take place; you will have already lived through it and it will be history to you. If you wait to recognize the thunder, it's to late for you. Jesus told us in Luke 10:18. "...I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." We saw in the Revelation 9:1, when the fifth angel sounded his trumpet the star [lightning] fell from heaven. This sixth trumpet then is the announcement of that fall from heaven. If you are waiting for that announcement, your already part of Satan's system. You must know before hand from God's Word, for without that knowledge [seal] in your mind, God will turn you over to Satan [Revelation 9:4].

You must know that the trumpets give the action of what is to takes place in this time of testing. To not know this report [prophesy] before it comes about will cause you to be caught up in the action as an "actor", and not an "observer". God gives you His prophecies so you can be an observer. Do you get it?

Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

When the seventh angel sounds his trumpet, then the mystery of God shall be finished. Should this be a mystery or surprise to you as a Christian? Not if you have studied God's Word. For God revealed every detail of what we shall see, and hear, in His Word. There are no surprises. Jesus said many times, "It is written". What is written will come to pass. All the prophecies uttered by the prophets, and disciples, as well as our Lord, referring to these latter days, is what the thunders revealed.

This seal is broken by the blood of Jesus Christ, and through Him we can take it the knowledge of God's Word into our minds, and act upon that knowledge.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is the seventh and final trumpet, from the time that the two witnesses stand to their feet, we are dealing in seconds, and minutes for it all to occur. The third woe comes with the seventh trumpet. All prophecy in the entire Bible dealing with the seventh, and last trumpet happens instantly at this time.

Again see above,this is now His kingdom,so if He has not come back how can this be His kingdom?

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

You can't miss the meaning in this verse it means just what it says,we will all be changed.When?At the last trump,so what happens at the 7th trump?

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Again this is the 7th trump period,these two verses go together

The seven vials must be poured out after this. How amazing: John shows us the seven trumpets being poured out in chapter 16, after the 7th trumpet has sounded.

As I posted in an earlier post the seals trumps and vails happen at the same time

 

[lecoop]

onelove writes,

As I posted in an earlier post the seals trumps and vails happen at the same time.

Impossible.

Rev 8
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded
8 And the second angel sounded
10 And the third angel sounded
12 And the fourth angel sounded
13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Rev 9
1 And the fifth angel sounded

Rev 11
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded
14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15And the seventh angel sounded;

What is the third woe? John tells us: "by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound."

The third woe then, is the 7th angel, and what comes after that. All the bad stuff that happens after the 7th trumpet are part of the third woe, including the woe caused by Satan coming down in great wrath, and including all seven of the vials.

At the breaking of the 7th seal, John sees the seven angels with the seven trumpets. The woes are numbered, "one" "second" and "third." It would be impossible, the way this is written, to have any of these events not in the exact sequence that John writes them, else "one," "second" and "third" have no meaning.

What does John mean by "after this?" What does the numbers one through seven mean? Of course they mean sequential numbering, two after one, three after two, etc. To say then, that the seals, trumpets and vials happen at the same time is just overlooking these facts.

Any doctrine or belief that must re-arrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

lecoop

Who said Jesus can only come one more time? I think I will take God's word for this. I see more than one coming.

When He comes the 2nd times He comes to set up His kingdom here on earth,this will be the Day of the Lord, ie His 2nd coming so if He sets up His kingdom at this time,and He will why does He need to come a 3rd 4th or 5th time?Once He gets here He never leaves,never.

[quote:dda76]How ever, if Paul meant the last of a series, then all that I said is silly. The angels will not have to collect all the trumpets in existance. God will not become a liar, for God never said that there will never be any more trumpet sounds.

Last means just that,last,if its a series as you imply,then where are the first second etc of these other series?

Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:"

The angel swore by Almighty God. The thunders covered the full cycle of all events about to happen, but the angel is announcing the close of this earth age: This earth age is over and finished.

The seven seals took us to the end of this earth age, the age where man lives in the flesh body. The earth continues on into eternity, but man no longer will live in the flesh following the close of this earth age.

The seven trumpets exist in the same time frame as the seven seals, and end with the "day of the Lord". However, we are still in the sixth trumpet during this part of the vision. So then, what are the thunders?

Thunder is the report, or sound caused by the movement of lightning. The lightning is the action that took place, while the thunder follows later. The thunder is indicating the distance in time that has passed since the action had occurred. By the time you here the thunder, the lightning is long past.

This is why the thunders are sealed. By the time the thunders take place; you will have already lived through it and it will be history to you. If you wait to recognize the thunder, it's to late for you. Jesus told us in Luke 10:18. "...I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." We saw in the Revelation 9:1, when the fifth angel sounded his trumpet the star [lightning] fell from heaven. This sixth trumpet then is the announcement of that fall from heaven. If you are waiting for that announcement, your already part of Satan's system. You must know before hand from God's Word, for without that knowledge [seal] in your mind, God will turn you over to Satan [Revelation 9:4].

You must know that the trumpets give the action of what is to takes place in this time of testing. To not know this report [prophesy] before it comes about will cause you to be caught up in the action as an "actor", and not an "observer". God gives you His prophecies so you can be an observer. Do you get it?

Revelation 10:7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

When the seventh angel sounds his trumpet, then the mystery of God shall be finished. Should this be a mystery or surprise to you as a Christian? Not if you have studied God's Word. For God revealed every detail of what we shall see, and hear, in His Word. There are no surprises. Jesus said many times, "It is written". What is written will come to pass. All the prophecies uttered by the prophets, and disciples, as well as our Lord, referring to these latter days, is what the thunders revealed.

This seal is broken by the blood of Jesus Christ, and through Him we can take it the knowledge of God's Word into our minds, and act upon that knowledge.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This is the seventh and final trumpet, from the time that the two witnesses stand to their feet, we are dealing in seconds, and minutes for it all to occur. The third woe comes with the seventh trumpet. All prophecy in the entire Bible dealing with the seventh, and last trumpet happens instantly at this time.

Again see above,this is now His kingdom,so if He has not come back how can this be His kingdom?

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

You can't miss the meaning in this verse it means just what it says,we will all be changed.When?At the last trump,so what happens at the 7th trump?

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

Again this is the 7th trump period,these two verses go together

The seven vials must be poured out after this. How amazing: John shows us the seven trumpets being poured out in chapter 16, after the 7th trumpet has sounded.

As I posted in an earlier post the seals trumps and vails happen at the same time[/quote:dda76]

I am happy that I do not read, see or understand these events as they are portrayed above. I see John writing in chronological order, 1 through 7, 1 through 7, and 1 through 7. The woes in order, one, two and three. Especially, I see the rapture taking place before any of trumpets or vials. John shows us the huge crowd in heaven, before the seventh trumpets officially starts the 70th week. Who am I to re-arrange John's God given timing?

Onelove, it has been fun, but you and I will not see these things the same, until they are played out and we see them first hand.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop

Onelove, it has been fun, but you and I will not see these things the same, until they are played out and we see them first hand.

Ditto,and I Im happy that we could discuss this in a respectful manner,with that said I will leave you with this.

Parable of the Fig Tree

Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves (out of season), ye know that summer (harvest time) is near:

A deception has been taking place and just before the Second Advent, people will believe that Jesus Christ has returned for them. This false return or "rapture" will be untimely and out of season because prophecy tells us that Satan will arrive first and pretend to be Christ. If you understand The Parable of the Fig Tree, you will know the season (generation) when Christ returns and you won't be deceived by Satan. Now learn.

Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things (seven seals, seven trumps, seven vials) come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors (harvest time - end of this earth age - Second Advent).

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation (season - generation of the fig tree) shall not pass, till all these things (seven things) be done (all prophecy fulfilled).

Mark 13:31 Heaven and Earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

The generation that Jesus refers to in Mark 13:30 is that of the fig tree. Jer 24 tells us when the fig tree was planted.
The House of Israel had been taken captive 200 years prior; the focus is on Judah and Jerusalem.

Jer 24:1 The Lord shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the Lord (Mount Zion), after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive (70 years) Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths (Nethinim) from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon (confusion).

The Nethinim (bad figs) were appointed to help the Levitcal priests (Ezra 8:20). They eventually started taking over the priests' duties - they conveniently mixed right in.

Jer 24:2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs (the tares of Matthew 13 - Kenites), which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

Jer 24:3 Then said the Lord unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

Jer 24:4 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

Jer 24:5 Thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans (Babylon - confusion) for their good (by Titus in 70 AD).

Jer 24:6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land (Jerusalem): and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

Judah returned to Jerusalem in 1948 (State of Israel established). Both good figs (Judah) and bad figs (those who say they are of Judah but are really sons of Cain - Kenites).

Rev 2:9 is addressed to the church in Smyrna. Smyrna is the name of a fig - a good fig.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews (from Judah), and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan (Kenites).

Jer 24:7 And I will give them (good figs) an heart to know me (the truth), that I am the Lord: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

Jer 24:8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the Lord, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue (residents that claim to be of Judah) of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

Jer 24:9 And I will deliver them (bad figs - Kenites) to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

Jer 24:10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.

They were dispersed from off the land by Titus in 70 AD and returned in 1948. The shoot (figs are planted by a shoot) was set out and has been putting forth leaves.


Because of the Parable of the Fig Tree, we know the season (generation) when Christ will return - the generation of the fig tree (1948); we are that generation.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Mark 13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

 

[lecoop]

onelove wrote,

A deception has been taking place and just before the Second Advent, people will believe that Jesus Christ has returned for them. This false return or "rapture" will be untimely and out of season because prophecy tells us that Satan will arrive first and pretend to be Christ. If you understand The Parable of the Fig Tree, you will know the season (generation) when Christ returns and you won't be deceived by Satan. Now learn.

Mark 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things (seven seals, seven trumps, seven vials) come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors (harvest time - end of this earth age - Second Advent).

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation (season - generation of the fig tree) shall not pass, till all these things (seven things) be done (all prophecy fulfilled).

"A deception has been taking place..." Would people mistake being suddenly changed into their resurrection bodies, and being raise up into the clouds? How could someone mistake such a thing? Many, many people have had dreams and visons of the rapture, myself included. No one included in the rapture will be deceived when it happens. No, the deception will come before the rapture, to keep people from hearing the trumpet, and being changed. What deception, and why? Satan will try to keep as many out of the rapture as He can. How? I can see that one way is deceive them into thinking that the rapture cannnot come until after the 70th week. If one believes this, then they are not day by day "looking for that blessed hope," the rapture of the church. Christians will also be deceived by worldly things; the same kind of things that have deceived them for centuries. Some will be into sin, and won't want to quit, and will miss the rapture. So I agree with onelove that there will be deception, but we disagree on what that deception will be.

So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things (seven seals, seven trumps, seven vials) come to pass

What things was Mark really talking about? Is it the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven vials? Let's take Mark's word for it:

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not..
19 For in those days shall be affliction..
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

These are the things Jesus was meaning; the things that He had just told them. They (those living in Judea) will see the abomination. Some will flee into the wilderness. They will see great persecution, tribulation or affliction. They will hear of false Christs. When? After the abomination and before He comes on the white horse. Finally, the "tribulation" or the 70th week will end. The great persecution will end, and people will wonder what is next. Then, after the 70th week is ended, they will see the signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars. When they see all these things, then they KNOW that His coming will be any moment.

For any readers interested in John's chronology, it is very interesting that some of these signs will be seen about 7 year previous to the ones just mentioned above. (the signs in the sun and moon will be seen twice, about 7 years apart.) They are a part of the 6th seal. They will be signs of His coming to receive His saints at the rapture. At that time also, there will be signs in the sun and moon, but Joel tells us that they will be "before" that dreadful day of the Lord.

The chronology then, will be signs in the sun and moon, suddenly a tremendous earthquake like this earth has never seen, which will shake the entire planet. This will be the fulfillment of the 6th seal. But there will be another, invisible sign - at least invisible for the moment - but will be very manifest later. It is written, "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..." At this tremendous earthquake, the gaves of all those dead in Christ will open, and the bodies of those dead in Christ will rise up. Then those alive in Christ will rise up, and the "rapture" of the church will be accomplished. It will be a "suddenly." But then, it will become apparent that millions of people around the world have disappeared. (John sees the raptured church in heaven, very soon after the 6th seal event. Rev.7)

What happens next? The church will go to heaven, and the earth will face the 70th week of Daniel, and the "day of the Lord." The 7th seal will follow the 6th, and will signal in heaven, the beginning of the 70th week on earth. Then the first 6 trumpets will take place, probably happening about 7 months apart. After 3 1/2 years, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven, and the leopard beast will be in the temple, calling himself God. It will be the abomination spoken of by Jesus.

After seeing the abomination, the "woman" will flee into the wilderness, and the beast will set up His image and mark. Then will be great tribulation, such as this world has never seen. Some time after the mark has been set up, and the beast has had his killing machine going, God will start to pour out the vials of His wrath, pointed at the kingdom of the beast.

The vials will shorten those days of intense persecution, and finally, the persection will stop. The end of the 70th week will be marked by another tremendous earthquake, even bigger than the last. It will take place at the 7th vial. I would suggest that this earthquake will be the Old Testament saints rising from their graves.

Once again, there will be signs in the sun and moon, but this time to signify the coming of Jesus on the white horse.

This is John's God given chronology.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop

Guess we shall continue,

Mark 13:4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

This marks the subject for the entire chapter. Now Jesus is going to tell us the seven seals what will take place before His second advent.

Mark 13:5 "And Jesus answering them began to say, "Take heed lest any many deceive you:"

So the basis of what we are working with here and guarding against, is deception.

Lets go to Revelation 6, where the seals are listed, to the first seal from Revelation 6 .

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold, a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

Deception

This is not a white ass like Jesus rode into Jerusalem, but is exactly like the white steed that Jesus would ride when He comes at the seventh trumpet, in Revelation 19:11-17. This white horse, and the one that is sitting on it is a copy, a counterfeit of the what will come later. This word for "bow" in the Greek is "toxon", which is not the same "bow" described in Revelation 4:3, God's bow was the rainbow that was "round about the throne of God". This bow that Satan will have when he comes will be a cheep imitation. Satan will come appearing to be what he is not. Satan will be coming as the "instead of Christ", in the role of the Antichrist, for he is the "son of perdition".

Mark 13:7 "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be ye not troubled: for shuch things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet."

This is getting into the second seal of the book of Revelation.

Revelation 6:4 "And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

The "red horse" is a war horse. The "sword" that causes this peace to be take from the earth, and given to war, is the sword of lies, remember, "Take hee that no man deceive you". The sword of Christ that proceeds from Christ is given in Revelation 1:16, and it cuts both ways. However, Satan also has a sword, and his sword [words] causes nothing but death and destruction to those that listen to it. First come the lies, then the deception, and then the war. Before any nation goes to war, its people have to be prepared for the war, and many things that are spoken to prepare the people for that conflict are pure lies. This final war appears to be one thing, when in actuality it is just the opposite. It is a spiritual war that appears to be a thing of peace, when in fact it is complete destruction of the souls of men. the battle field will be in the minds of men and women, and it will be fought with words, ideas and precepts, that are twisted from the Word of God by Satan.

So the second seal from Mark 13 is the war that will cover the entire earth, and it is a spiritual warfare. It comes through a false sense of peace, and Paul warns us of this warfare in Ephesians 6:10; "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might."

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Mark 13:8 "For nations shall rise against nation, and kingdom aganst kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows."

This is the third seal that Jesus is given to us.

Revelation 6:5 "And when He had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, "come and see." And I beheld, and, lo, a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand."

This third angel of God is telling you and I to look and pay attention with understanding. These "balances" are the balances of commerce

Revelation 6:6 "And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, "A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine."

Remember that the "oil" is symbolic for "olive oil", the "oil of our people". It is symbolic for the blood of Christ. The point that is made here is that you do not hurt even one of God's elect. A penny was the scale for one days labor, and that is what you would work all day long for to get a loaf of bread. the famine is not for the bread that you eat, but the famine is for the hearing the truth from the Word of God with understanding.

This famine is what Jesus is talking about here in Mark 13:8. When you shall hear of these "famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows."

This word "sorrows" as used in the Greek are "birth pangs". These are the labor pains that come to a woman before the birth actually comes. As the birth draws closer to delivery, these pangs get closer and closer until they are virtually one on top of the other until the child finally comes. This is in reference though to the birth of a new age. That new age is the Millennium age, that starts with the return of Christ. Remember that these "birth pangs" [seals or prophecies] are the subject of this chapter, "What are the sign that we shall see before Christ's return?" So the signs of Christ's return are when the birth pangs start, when the famine or the lack of knowledge for hearing God's Word becomes common, and the masses of the people will turn to listen to false teachers and false prophets and turn to their traditions.

Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake,, for a testimony against them."

So now we go into the forth seal of the end times.

Revelation 6:8 "And I looked, and behold, a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

Pale horse" represents "death", and after the famine comes death. We are talking about Satan here, for that is another name of Satan, "death".

Revelation 6:9 "And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

These souls of the slain are asking the same question as the disciples had here in Mark 13. "How long to the end of this earth age?" These souls had been human beings with flesh and blood bodies, and their blood had flowed for the sake of the Word of God. They ask, "How long will it be before you destroy our enemies?"

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

All of these souls were overcomers in Christ in this earth age of the flesh. God is telling them that, during this time of these seals their fellow servants, which are you and I that believe in Christ and have the truth of the Word of God sealed in our mind, should be killed just as they were.

As you should see there are no old testament saints in the ground(grave) somewhere waiting to be raptured,they are already in Heaven,these are those that Christ brings with Him.


Here again in Mark 13:9, we will see what we can expect in that generation before it all comes to the end. In review:

Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them."

These places are the synagogues of Satan, those religious places where people gather to practice their religious traditions. You will be drilled thoroughly for the sake of converting you to the ways of the false christ. Everything that they do to you will be for the sake of Christ's Word, and your position that you take to defend His Word. Thus the fith seal is you being used as a testimony against these religious rulers and leaders. Your testimony is against those that claim to be of the true Christ, when in fact they are teaching the doctrines of Satan, that will lead people to follow him.

Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,"

This is the sixth seal that is about to be opened

Revelation 6:12 "And I behold when He had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood."

"But in those days", the days immediately following "that tribulation", the tribulation of Satan. This is exactly what is said in both passages.

Mark 13:26 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."

The "Son of man" is Jesus Christ the Anointed one. This is telling us that we should not expect the return of the True Christ until after the coming of the false christ, and the tribulation that Satan will bring with him.

Mark 13:27 "And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the heaven."

Lets tie this verse in with Revelation 6:14.

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

It is telling us that this sixth seal is the time that the false messiah returns. Notices that it is the sixth trumpet that is also the sixth seal. When the "four winds" are mentioned, it always has to do with the consummating the end of this earth age. The four winds are the four spirits that are talked about in Revelation 7, and they close in from all directions to center on one point, and that is the end of this period of time. In Revelation 7 the four angels that control these four winds held back their coming until the sealing of all of the 144,000 was seal, and now at the sixth seal, it is time for the false messiah to come.