The rapture of the Church

[lecoop]

Coop

Simple question

In Matthew 24 Christ warned us about everthing that would happen before His return,and in that chapter He stated that He would not return until after the tribulation.So my question is this ,how can you say you all will not go thru the trib if He's not coming till after and why did He warn us if we were not going to be here?

And looking at the book of Revelation why do we even need to read it if we are not going to be here?

Onelove: it all comes down to rightly dividing the word of truth. At the time of the Olivet discourse, the Gentile church, and the "age of grace" was a mystery hidden in the Father. God waited quite a while, giving Israel every chance to accept Jesus as their messiah, even after His death, burial and resurrection. Finally, He gave up on them, and raised up Paul to take the gospel to the Gentiles, and so, started the mystery of the age of grace. It was a total mystery during the old covenant. According to old testament prophecies, the 70th week of Daniel should have come shortly after Jesus rose from the dead. What I mean to say is that there was not one hint that there would be 2000 more years.

Did Jesus have the Gentile church in mind when He was answering the questions brought to Him by the disciples? I don't think so - as it was still a mystery. He answered their questions as it related to the days of Jacob's trouble, not related to the age of grace at all.

Since the Holy Spirit gave Paul the revelation of the rapture of the church, and ONLY Paul, and since Paul was sent to the Gentiles, it makes perfect sense that Jesus could come and take the Gentile church home, before the time of Jacob's trouble. It is not called Nebuchadnezzar's trouble (a Gentile) nor was it called Paul's trouble: no, it was called Jacob's trouble because it relates to the final week of Israel: all those descended from Jacob and his 12 sons. You seem to want to put the Gentiles into that time, like trying to cramb a size 13 foot into a size six shoe: it just won't fit.

At least, that is my opinion! : -)))

Coop

 

[golfjack]

Daniel 9:1-27 is very important in understanding what happens before the rapture of the church and the Great Tribulation. Most scholars translate sevens as periods of seven years, so seventy sevens would be 490 years. This would take us up to the coming of Christ; and the last week goes beyond, to the tribulation.

God wanted Daniel to know and understand the seventy sevens of years that he had determined for Israel and Jerusalem. Israel had lived through sixty-nine sevens of years, or 483 years, with but seven years remaining judged upon them and their city.

Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city ( v. 24). The Hebrew word for week is shavua, which literally means seven. But is the seven days or seven years? Theere is a clue in another chapter where Daniel said, In those days I, Daniel was mourning three full weeks, or shauava, in the original ( Dan. 10:2, 3). Here it means weeks of days, literally three sevens of days.

If tghe seventy weeks were weeks of days, this would mean that the holy city and the walls would be rebuilt and destroyed again, and the Messia would be cut off, crucified ( Matt. 27:35), and the six prophesies of Daniel ( v. 24) would all come to pass in 490 days, obviously impossible.

Let's skip over to verses 26, and 27 of Daniel 9. The 69 sevens of years, or 483 years were fulfilled by the crrucifixation of Christ. However, the seventieth seven, or the last seven years, are still in the future because there are six prrophesies that must be fulfilled during the seventy sevens of years before the 490 years determined for Israel come completely to pass.

I know this is quite complicated and I didn't give a full picture, but I gave a brief outline of events that happened and still is future.

There are two princes in this chapter, Messiah the prince and the prince that shall come. I think the the little Horn will be a Roman. He is the man of sin ( 2 Thess. 2:3, 4.). He will make a covenant with the Jews for seven years, but in the Middle of the week he will bring an end to sacrifice and all hell will break loose.

The big thing is Church. Are we ready?


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[lecoop]

Daniel 9:1-27 is very important in understanding what happens before the rapture of the church and the Great Tribulation. Most scholars translate sevens as periods of seven years, so seventy sevens would be 490 years. This would take us up to the coming of Christ; and the last week goes beyond, to the tribulation.

God wanted Daniel to know and understand the seventy sevens of years that he had determined for Israel and Jerusalem. Israel had lived through sixty-nine sevens of years, or 483 years, with but seven years remaining judged upon them and their city.

Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city ( v. 24). The Hebrew word for week is shavua, which literally means seven. But is the seven days or seven years? Theere is a clue in another chapter where Daniel said, In those days I, Daniel was mourning three full weeks, or shauava, in the original ( Dan. 10:2, 3). Here it means weeks of days, literally three sevens of days.

If tghe seventy weeks were weeks of days, this would mean that the holy city and the walls would be rebuilt and destroyed again, and the Messia would be cut off, crucified ( Matt. 27:35), and the six prophesies of Daniel ( v. 24) would all come to pass in 490 days, obviously impossible.

Let's skip over to verses 26, and 27 of Daniel 9. The 69 sevens of years, or 483 years were fulfilled by the crrucifixation of Christ. However, the seventieth seven, or the last seven years, are still in the future because there are six prrophesies that must be fulfilled during the seventy sevens of years before the 490 years determined for Israel come completely to pass.

I know this is quite complicated and I didn't give a full picture, but I gave a brief outline of events that happened and still is future.

There are two princes in this chapter, Messiah the prince and the prince that shall come. I think the the little Horn will be a Roman. He is the man of sin ( 2 Thess. 2:3, 4.). He will make a covenant with the Jews for seven years, but in the Middle of the week he will bring an end to sacrifice and all hell will break loose.

The big thing is Church. Are we ready?


May God bless, Golfjack

I pretty much agree, Golfjack.

Jesus prophisied of the abomination taking place future to Him. Then John confirmed it, and greatly expanded the 70th week, so we know what will lead up to it, what will take place during it, and what will happen after it.

However, I am convinced that this "Roman" will be from the Eastern leg of the ancient Roman Empire, from one of the countries that surround Israel. If I was asked to pick, I would say a country North of Israel.
Coop

 

[golfjack]

Coop, Actually, it coulld be somebody from out of Iraq. I believe the leader of Iran may pick him. Of course, this is speculation.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Zero Link]

None of you guys think the popes could be anti-christ? I've been seeing alot about these popes being anti-christ. If this is true then aren't we on our last pope before he goes into perdition and starts the great tribulation? If this is true then we REALLY are living our last couple of peaceful years. I just don't understand this, If theres no rapture before the great tribulation then I don't understand how theres gonna be one after. I mean, one person can easily mark when anti-christ breaks his law and causes great tribulation. One person can mark when its going to stop *in another 3 1/2yrs* and know the exact date Jesus makes his second coming and the rapture takes place. And it clearly stated in the bible that no man knew what date Jesus would be returning. Not even the angels knew about it. If the rapture isn't true, then I would hate the fact that we have to be chased around and killed <_< BUT at least its for a good cause. I doubt we will be persecuted like old roman times. =l Most likely, alot of people will be hung or sentenced to the electric chair or gas chamber. Depends on where you live. But i'm getting ahead of myself, Either way it go, I guess I'm ready for whatever happens. I do look foward to a rapture, but even if it doesn't happen *which I pray that it will* then bah, I'll still be ready.

 

[n2thelight]

coop

Did Jesus have the Gentile church in mind when He was answering the questions brought to Him by the disciples? I don't think so - as it was still a mystery. He answered their questions as it related to the days of Jacob's trouble, not related to the age of grace at all.

That's not the point,the point is the subject of the question,which was,when will you return.
The Church has nothing whatsoever to do with the question,of His return.

Again I ask, who is Israel?They are without a doubt,not all Jews,and as stated above,that has nothing to do with the question anyway.The question was plain and very simple

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Can you please tell me what,Israel,Gentiles or the Church has to do with this question?


And even Paul says that Christ will not return until after satan is revealed

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"


Simple question asked in Mathew 24:3 simple statement given in Thess 2:3

And again the Church,Israel or the Gentile has nothing to do with the subject of either verse,you are trying to add something that is just not there.

 

[lecoop]

coop

Did Jesus have the Gentile church in mind when He was answering the questions brought to Him by the disciples? I don't think so - as it was still a mystery. He answered their questions as it related to the days of Jacob's trouble, not related to the age of grace at all.

That's not the point,the point is the subject of the question,which was,when will you return.
The Church has nothing whatsoever to do with the question,of His return.

I disagree. The church age is like a parenthesis, unknown to the old covenant prophets, but inserted into Israel's timeline, adding about 2000 years. Of course, God knew this before the foundation of the earth. However, many times we see that God, although He knows the outcome, waits to see what people will do. He waited for a few years, to see if Israel would accept Him as their Messiah. They did not. Therefore, we read this:

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Again I ask, who is Israel?They are without a doubt,not all Jews,and as stated above,that has nothing to do with the question anyway.The question was plain and very simple

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Can you please tell me what,Israel,Gentiles or the Church has to do with this question?

The Gentile church did not exist at that time, and was a secret hidden in the Father at that time. The disciples knew the old testament prophecies. Jesus expanded on those. They were not prophecies related to the church, but to Israel. Who is Israel? Of course, descendants of Jacob. "Who" Jesus was speaking to has everything to do with the question, for the question we are discussing is the rapture of the church, which is totally unrelated to what Jesus is discussing. They did NOT ask Jesus when the rapture of the church would take place, for they did not even know there would be "a Gentile church."

(Note: when I say "Gentile" church, that term does include Jews that have been born again. However, they are in the minority.)

They asked for a "sign" of His coming, and a sign of the end of the world. Did Jesus answer this question? Yes. There would be signs in the sun, moon and stars.

And even Paul says that Christ will not return until after satan is revealed.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"
2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."
3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Simple question asked in Mathew 24:3 simple statement given in Thess 2:3

I don't think so. Paul said that the "day of the Lord [Christ]" cannot come until the "man of sin" is revealed. Why would they be shaken in mind or troubled, thinking that they were already IN the day of the Lord, and they had not yet been "gathered," if they knew that the gathering would be after that day? Of course, they would not be troubled, for things would be progressing just as they had been told. But if they had been told that the gathering would be before that day, then indeed, they would be greatly troubled, thinking they had missed the gathering, or rapture. The point is, they WERE troubled! They thought they had missed the rapture, and were IN the day of the Lord. Paul says, no, these days (they were undoubted being persecuted then) are not the day of the Lord. That day [the day of Christ or Lord] cannot come until the man of sin is revealed.

Compare with John: the "day of the Lord" starts with the seventh seal. Yet John sees a huge crowd, too large to number, in heaven, BEFORE "that day" has started. They were, of course, the church, having just been raptured.

And again the Church,Israel or the Gentile has nothing to do with the subject of either verse,you are trying to add something that is just not there.

And here is where one must "rightly divide" the word of truth. 2 Thes 2 is written to and about the church, and has nothing at all, whatsoever, to do with what Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 24. That conversation was about the final week of Israel, and unrelated to the church.

Let me give you an example:

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Do we, as the Gentile church, follow this verse? In 60 years of attending church, I have yet to hear a sermon that we should give tithes (an old covanant law) of spices. But we are taught to follow judgement and mercy. Jesus said "not to leave the other undone" because he was speaking to Jews under the old covanant. They were required by law to tithe on their spices. We, as the Gentile church, are not under the law of tithe.

Neither do we as the church have anything to do with "Jacob's trouble." In fact, when He returns has little to do with the question [timing of the rapture], as we will return with Him.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

coop

"Who" Jesus was speaking to has everything to do with the question, for the question we are discussing is the rapture of the church, which is totally unrelated to what Jesus is discussing. They did NOT ask Jesus when the rapture of the church would take place, for they did not even know there would be "a Gentile church."

Christ was speaking more so to us in this generation(geneation of the fig tree)than He was to those diciples who asked the question,so for you to say He was'nt speaking to the Church is absured.Futhermore,if this rapture was to take place would you not think that He would have told them ?

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

What generation is Christ talking about here?Let me help you out,He is talking about the generation that we are now living in today,so again for for you to say He's not talking about the Church is not true.All of Matthew 24 was written to us.

Question,do you feel that Israel is referring only to Jews?

Compare with John: the "day of the Lord" starts with the seventh seal. Yet John sees a huge crowd, too large to number, in heaven, BEFORE "that day" has started. They were, of course, the church, having just been raptured.

Revelation 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

Revelation 7:10 "And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

This is not part of the "rapture" as many teachers teach. No; but it is the people who have died in the Lord's work, and have gone to be with Him.These are the saint of God, who lived a life on this earth, and died and went to be with the Lord; from any century in this earth age. Those are the ones John sees standing before the Lord in their white robes, washed in the blood of the Lamb, and their sins made white as snow.

Revelation 7:13 "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir [My Lord], thou knowest. and he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Did he say these are those that were raptured,no!,he did'nt,these are the same people written about in chapters 6 and 20
Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

And here is where one must "rightly divide" the word of truth. 2 Thes 2 is written to and about the church, and has nothing at all, whatsoever, to do with what Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 24. That conversation was about the final week of Israel, and unrelated to the church.

That Day is the same as Matthew 24 and that is the Day of the Lord,as I stated above,Matthew 24 was written to us in this generation especially

 

[lecoop]

coop

"Who" Jesus was speaking to has everything to do with the question, for the question we are discussing is the rapture of the church, which is totally unrelated to what Jesus is discussing. They did NOT ask Jesus when the rapture of the church would take place, for they did not even know there would be "a Gentile church."

Christ was speaking more so to us in this generation(geneation of the fig tree)than He was to those diciples who asked the question,so for you to say He was'nt speaking to the Church is absured.Futhermore,if this rapture was to take place would you not think that He would have told them ?

Of course he would not have told them, for the Gentile church, of which you and I are a part, was at that time a secret hidden in the Father. You must remember that Jesus was not giving this prophecy as GOD, but as a prophet under the old covenant. I am NOT saying that Jesus was not God, but that He laid aside His Godly attributes when He took on flesh. He was not all knowing at that time. Yes, the Holy Spirit that anointed Him was all knowing, but that is not the same thing. Jesus spoke what He heard the Father say, throught the Holy Spirit. He gave prophecies just the same way that Elijah did - by the Holy Spirit. Of course God knew that you and I would be reading this prophecy, as well as millions of others down through the church age. Don't you find it interesting that the revelation of the rapture was given ONLY to Paul?

Matthew 24:34 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

What generation is Christ talking about here?Let me help you out,He is talking about the generation that we are now living in today,so again for for you to say He's not talking about the Church is not true.All of Matthew 24 was written to us.

Those passages had to have meaning to the generation He was speaking to also. But just because much of this prophecy is for our generation does not mean it is pointed to the church. For example, the US is in no way related to the "fig tree." Neither does any here in the US live in "Judea." If you could for a moment imagine that the church is "taken out of the way," before the 70th week, this discourse still has much meaning, but for those left on earth, primarily to Israel, but also for Gentiles that turn to God after the rapture.

Question,do you feel that Israel is referring only to Jews?

No, when I use the word "Israel" I mean all the descendants of Jacob. It also means the nation.

[quote:3b5ad]Compare with John: the "day of the Lord" starts with the seventh seal. Yet John sees a huge crowd, too large to number, in heaven, BEFORE "that day" has started. They were, of course, the church, having just been raptured.

Revelation 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

Revelation 7:10 "And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

This is not part of the "rapture" as many teachers teach. No; but it is the people who have died in the Lord's work, and have gone to be with Him.These are the saint of God, who lived a life on this earth, and died and went to be with the Lord; from any century in this earth age. Those are the ones John sees standing before the Lord in their white robes, washed in the blood of the Lamb, and their sins made white as snow.

Revelation 7:13 "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir [My Lord], thou knowest. and he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Did he say these are those that were raptured,no!,he did'nt,these are the same people written about in chapters 6 and 20
Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." [/quote:3b5ad]

Sorry, but the text in chapter 7 gives not even a hint that these have died to get to heaven. Neither does it give even one hint that it is the same group under the altar in the 5th seal. Sorry, but those under the alter were told to rest for a season. And it clearly says that they were killed. Stephen and James were among the first to be in that group of the 5th seal. And sorry again, for John did not tell us that these were beheaded! Neither does it say that those under the altar were beheaded. If you will rightly divide the word of truth, those beheaded lost their head due to the beast, because they refused to worship him. Stephen and James never met the beast, not did any of those under the altar. They were killed during the church age. And they will be those "dead in Christ" who will rise first at the rapture. None of these will see the beast. John is speaking of three different and separate groups of people; first, those that are martyred during the church age, second, the raptured church in heaven, and third, those that are beheaded by the beast.

The great crowd, seen just before the 70th week starts, are indeed the raptured church. The discription is right, and the timing is right.

[quote:3b5ad]And here is where one must "rightly divide" the word of truth. 2 Thes 2 is written to and about the church, and has nothing at all, whatsoever, to do with what Jesus was speaking about in Matthew 24. That conversation was about the final week of Israel, and unrelated to the church.

That Day is the same as Matthew 24 and that is the Day of the Lord,as I stated above,Matthew 24 was written to us in this generation especially[/quote:3b5ad]

I will agree that Paul mentioned the "day of the Lord" in that passage. Of course the man of sin would be revealed during that day. However, he said that that day could not come until the departure comes first: the "departure" being the same thing as the restrainer taken "out of the way." Paul was speaking to the Thessalonian church. Were they in "Judea?" Were they the "fig tree?" No, Paul was speaking to part of the Gentile church. Jesus was speaking to Jews about their final week: two separate groups, with two separate outcomes.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

coop

Of course he would not have told them, for the Gentile church, of which you and I are a part, was at that time a secret hidden in the Father. You must remember that Jesus was not giving this prophecy as GOD, but as a prophet under the old covenant. I am NOT saying that Jesus was not God, but that He laid aside His Godly attributes when He took on flesh. He was not all knowing at that time. Yes, the Holy Spirit that anointed Him was all knowing, but that is not the same thing. Jesus spoke what He heard the Father say, throught the Holy Spirit. He gave prophecies just the same way that Elijah did - by the Holy Spirit. Of course God knew that you and I would be reading this prophecy, as well as millions of others down through the church age. Don't you find it interesting that the revelation of the rapture was given ONLY to Paul?

As I said this prophecy was written more so to us than them,so my point is He would have told us.And where do you get that the Church was a mystery?Jesus not all knowing,come on now,and there was no rapture revelation given to Paul.Jesus was no mere prophet,you sound just like the Muslems.And as I asked in an earlier post,why do you keep seperating the Church from Israel?

Those passages had to have meaning to the generation He was speaking to also. But just because much of this prophecy is for our generation does not mean it is pointed to the church. For example, the US is in no way related to the "fig tree." Neither does any here in the US live in "Judea." If you could for a moment imagine that the church is "taken out of the way," before the 70th week, this discourse still has much meaning, but for those left on earth, primarily to Israel, but also for Gentiles that turn to God after the rapture.

The point of the fig tree parable was us for you to know what season we were in, where we are on the earth at that time has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.The Church is not going anywhere,are you trying to say that the Church is not in Israel?What is the meaning of Church to you anyway?The Church to me is a many membered body consisting of all whom believe on the Lord,so again for you to keep seperating the two is beyond my comprehension,and frankly not scriptual.

Sorry, but the text in chapter 7 gives not even a hint that these have died to get to heaven. Neither does it give even one hint that it is the same group under the altar in the 5th seal. Sorry, but those under the alter were told to rest for a season. And it clearly says that they were killed. Stephen and James were among the first to be in that group of the 5th seal. And sorry again, for John did not tell us that these were beheaded! Neither does it say that those under the altar were beheaded. If you will rightly divide the word of truth, those beheaded lost their head due to the beast, because they refused to worship him. Stephen and James never met the beast, not did any of those under the altar. They were killed during the church age. And they will be those "dead in Christ" who will rise first at the rapture. None of these will see the beast. John is speaking of three different and separate groups of people; first, those that are martyred during the church age, second, the raptured church in heaven, and third, those that are beheaded by the beast.

The great crowd, seen just before the 70th week starts, are indeed the raptured church. The discription is right, and the timing is right.

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir [My Lord], thou knowest. and he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Perfect match,same people

The reason they rise first is the fact that they have already risen,they are not in the ground somewhere for as you can see they are at the alter.It says nothing whatsoever about the Church being raptured ,I think you need to take your own advice and rightly divide

I will agree that Paul mentioned the "day of the Lord" in that passage. Of course the man of sin would be revealed during that day. However, he said that that day could not come until the departure comes first: the "departure" being the same thing as the restrainer taken "out of the way." Paul was speaking to the Thessalonian church. Were they in "Judea?" Were they the "fig tree?" No, Paul was speaking to part of the Gentile church. Jesus was speaking to Jews about their final week: two separate groups, with two separate outcomes.

Paul said nothing about no departure,that's the problem with this theory,as you say rightly dividing the word,so let's look at what Paul said and to whom he was referring

The whole purpose for Paul to write the II Thessalonians letter, was to warn that church, as well as the churches of today, of the errors in teaching that others were making of his first letter. Don't expect Christ's return to soon, for these things of II Thessalonians 2:1-4 must take place first.

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

Then Christ will destroy Satan.



The generation of the fig tree was speaking to all that would be here on this earth at that time

 

[lecoop]

coop


As I said this prophecy was written more so to us than them,so my point is He would have told us.And where do you get that the Church was a mystery?Jesus not all knowing,come on now,and there was no rapture revelation given to Paul.Jesus was no mere prophet,you sound just like the Muslems.And as I asked in an earlier post,why do you keep seperating the Church from Israel?

Mark 5:30 "Who touched my clothes?"
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.


If Jesus was all knowing, He would not have had to ask. If Jesus was all knowing, how could He "increase?" It is a fact: when Jesus took on flesh, He had to lay aside some of His Godly attributes, such as being omnipresent. As a man, He was limited to being only at one place at one time. When Jesus prophecied, He spoke as He was led of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Colossians 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The church is still a mystery to some. Of course Paul wrote of the rapture, and it too was a mystery hidden in God.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

It is still a mystery to all those of a post-trib persuasion.


The bible separates the church from Israel. Did you notice who the 12 disciples preached to?

Acts 11:19
Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

Galatians 2:7
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

Paul was THE apostle to the Gentiles. Peter went once to the Gentiles, but that was Paul's mission.


The point of the fig tree parable was us for you to know what season we were in, where we are on the earth at that time has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.The Church is not going anywhere,are you trying to say that the Church is not in Israel?What is the meaning of Church to you anyway?The Church to me is a many membered body consisting of all whom believe on the Lord,so again for you to keep seperating the two is beyond my comprehension,and frankly not scriptual.

The Jews, for the most part, (and the other descendants of Jacob) do NOT believe on the Lord. Why then, do you want to add them to the church? I keep Israel separated from the church, because God does, and shows us the separation in His word. I'm sorry that you cannot see it. Once again, who's "trouble" is it? It is NOT the church's trouble, it is "Jacob's trouble." But if you see Jacob as the church, it is no wonder you struggle so to understand the rapture. Why would Jesus tell us that He was going to prepare a place for us, and would then come and receive us unto Himself? Did the church miss the wedding and supper? Not a chance!!! We will be there. Go back and read chapter 19 again. Tell me which comes first: the marriage, or the descent on the white horse?

Revelation 7:14 "And I said unto him, Sir [My Lord], thou knowest. and he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." [emphasis added by Coop]

Perfect match,same people

Where is the death shown in chapter 7? Sorry, but these have not died, as you suppose. Neither have you considered the timing. the fifth seal was broken as soon as Jesus arrived in heaven, after His ascension. It was in time for James and Stephen. It will include all who are martyred during the church age. On the other hand, John saw this great crowd in heaven, right after the 6th seal, still in our future. It is at the 6th seal, that the church will be raptured. of course John sees the church in heaven, soon after the sixth seal. So, diffferent group of people.

The reason they rise first is the fact that they have already risen,they are not in the ground somewhere for as you can see they are at the alter.It says nothing whatsoever about the Church being raptured ,I think you need to take your own advice and rightly divide

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

If one is martyred, it is conclusive that they have died: their spirit has separated from the body. Where did the spirit go? Of course, the spirit went to heaven. Therefore, we read that Jesus will bring with Him, those that have died, or "sleep" in Jesus. When Paul says they will "rise" first, he was speaking of the flesh that had long since decaded in the ground. Their spirit will be descending, but their body will rise from the ground. God will instantly change that mortal body to an imortal body, or a resurrection body such as Jesus had and has, and their spirit will again be joined to the body. But, since you don't believe in resurrected bodies, this will seem untrue to you. However, it is a fact of scripture. "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened." You need to explain why "the graves were opened."

Paul said nothing about no departure,that's the problem with this theory,as you say rightly dividing the word,so let's look at what Paul said and to whom he was referring

The whole purpose for Paul to write the II Thessalonians letter, was to warn that church, as well as the churches of today, of the errors in teaching that others were making of his first letter. Don't expect Christ's return to soon, for these things of II Thessalonians 2:1-4 must take place first.

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

Then Christ will destroy Satan.

Since you can't even keep Satan separated from the "man of sin," why should we believe your "take" on 2 Thes 2? Satan is cast into the lake of fire at a different time than the man of sin, proving your theory wrong. Next, I am not a Greek scholor, so I must rely on those that are. I can look (and I have) at every translation available, and they all pretty much say the same thing, except for how the one word, "apostasia" is translated. Here as an example:

King James Version
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

American Standard Version
2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way.

Bible in Basic English
2:7 For the secret of evil is even now at work: but there is one who is keeping back the evil till he is taken out of the way.

Darby's English Translation
2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works; only there is he who restrains now until he be gone,

Douay Rheims
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity already worketh; only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way.

Noah Webster Bible
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now restraineth will restrain, until he be taken out of the way.

Weymouth New Testament
2:7 For lawlessness is already at work in secret; but only until the man who is now exercising a restraining influence is removed,

World English Bible
2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness does already work. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way.

Young's Literal Translation
2:7 for the secret of the lawlessness doth already work, only he who is keeping down now will hinder -- till he may be out of the way,
http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B53C002.htm

Who is "taken out of the way?" Of course, it is the same one who is doing the restraining. The one that is restaining, is preventing the man of sin from being manifested, but one day, that one restraining will be removed out of the way, and the man of sin will be revealed. But of course we will never agree on this verse.


Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Mark 5:30 "Who touched my clothes?"
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.


If Jesus was all knowing, He would not have had to ask.
Coop

Not really a valid point Coop.

Gen 3:9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?

Just like this passage ~ when God asks questions, He is not looking for an update in information. He knowest. He wants thou to knowest. The question was to call Adam to account. Jesus was calling the woman to account.

 

[lecoop]

Mark 5:30 "Who touched my clothes?"
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.


If Jesus was all knowing, He would not have had to ask.
Coop

Not really a valid point Coop.

Gen 3:9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?

Just like this passage ~ when God asks questions, He is not looking for an update in information. He knowest. He wants thou to knowest. The question was to call Adam to account. Jesus was calling the woman to account.

NOt so! Jesus did not know who touched Him.

And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes.

Jesus knew that virture had gone out of Him - but did not know for who or why.

"32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. "

Luke gives us the same idea:

45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

Notice that Jesus ask the disciples first, and they all denied. Then Jesus said, "somebody" touched me. He did not know who, or for why. Don't read this with preconceived glasses on. Read exactly what is says, without adding preconceived ideas.

Why did Jesus not know? Jesus was operating as a man, filled with the Holy Spirit - just as the old covenant prophets did. Again, I am NOT saying that He was not God. God was the spirit inside of the body. Therefore, of course HE was God. the second person of the trinity. But His body operated just as ours does. He was not at that moment omnipresent, nor was He omniscient, in HIs flesh. However, the Holy Spirit and God the Father at that same time was. Therefore, Jesus as a man, did not know who touched Him, or why: all He knew was that someone touched Him, and by faith drew virture out of Him.

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

NOt so! Jesus did not know who touched Him.

And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes.

Jesus knew that virture had gone out of Him - but did not know for who or why.

"32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. "

Luke gives us the same idea:

45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

Notice that Jesus ask the disciples first, and they all denied. Then Jesus said, "somebody" touched me. He did not know who, or for why. Don't read this with preconceived glasses on. Read exactly what is says, without adding preconceived ideas.

Why did Jesus not know? Jesus was operating as a man, filled with the Holy Spirit - just as the old covenant prophets did. Again, I am NOT saying that He was not God. God was the spirit inside of the body. Therefore, of course HE was God. the second person of the trinity. But His body operated just as ours does. He was not at that moment omnipresent, nor was He omniscient, in HIs flesh. However, the Holy Spirit and God the Father at that same time was. Therefore, Jesus as a man, did not know who touched Him, or why: all He knew was that someone touched Him, and by faith drew virture out of Him.

Coop

Gen 3:9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?

Golly gee. Coop my preconceived idea on Gen 3:9 is that God knew where Adam was, and that He wanted Adam to admit it. Would you have me to believe that God was clueless here, and perhaps God did not know where he was?

Wow! look at all of these other questions.

Gen 3:11
Who told thee that thou [wast] naked?
Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Gen 3:13
What [is] this [that] thou hast done?

Jesus seems to be out of that preconceived idea here too.
Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?


Oops. Where did this come from?
Jhn 6:64 .... For Jesus knew from the beginning ....

Did Jesus not know the answers to these questions either?
Jhn 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mar 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed [him]. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Jhn 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?
Mat 7:16 Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 17:25...What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

Forgive me for being off topic. Perhaps this would be better as a new thread topic. May God forbid that it become yet another Trinity debate.,

 

[lecoop]

NOt so! Jesus did not know who touched Him.

And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes.

Jesus knew that virture had gone out of Him - but did not know for who or why.

"32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing. "

Luke gives us the same idea:

45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

Notice that Jesus ask the disciples first, and they all denied. Then Jesus said, "somebody" touched me. He did not know who, or for why. Don't read this with preconceived glasses on. Read exactly what is says, without adding preconceived ideas.

Why did Jesus not know? Jesus was operating as a man, filled with the Holy Spirit - just as the old covenant prophets did. Again, I am NOT saying that He was not God. God was the spirit inside of the body. Therefore, of course HE was God. the second person of the trinity. But His body operated just as ours does. He was not at that moment omnipresent, nor was He omniscient, in HIs flesh. However, the Holy Spirit and God the Father at that same time was. Therefore, Jesus as a man, did not know who touched Him, or why: all He knew was that someone touched Him, and by faith drew virture out of Him.

Coop

Gen 3:9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?

Golly gee. Coop my preconceived idea on Gen 3:9 is that God knew where Adam was, and that He wanted Adam to admit it. Would you have me to believe that God was clueless here, and perhaps God did not know where he was?

Wow! look at all of these other questions.

Gen 3:11
Who told thee that thou [wast] naked?
Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Gen 3:13
What [is] this [that] thou hast done?

Jesus seems to be out of that preconceived idea here too.
Jhn 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?


Oops. Where did this come from?
Jhn 6:64 .... For Jesus knew from the beginning ....

Did Jesus not know the answers to these questions either?
Jhn 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mar 4:40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?
Luk 20:15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed [him]. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?
Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Jhn 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?
Mat 7:16 Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 17:25...What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

Forgive me for being off topic. Perhaps this would be better as a new thread topic. May God forbid that it become yet another Trinity debate.,

Go ahead and make fun at my expense!
: -))

It is clear that you are not yet mature enough to know when Jesus did not know, and had to ask - and when he was asking a retorical question.

And you are right: It is better in a new thread.

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

It is clear that you are not yet mature enough to know ...
Coop

I guess I don't quite have that humble, Christlike attitude that you have developed either.

I thank you in advance for praying that God give us all the wisdom, knowledge and understanding so that we too, can comprehend the Almighty.

 

[Zero Link]

Mind if I step in?

Matthews 24:

The Day and Hour Unknown
36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.

Alright thnxkbai
*continues to watch this interesting conversation from the sidelines*

 

[n2thelight]

coop
Mark 5:30 "Who touched my clothes?"
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

If Jesus was all knowing, He would not have had to ask. If Jesus was all knowing, how could He "increase?" It is a fact: when Jesus took on flesh, He had to lay aside some of His Godly attributes, such as being omnipresent. As a man, He was limited to being only at one place at one time. When Jesus prophecied, He spoke as He was led of the Holy Spirit.

Don't stop at that verse
Mark 5:32 "And He looked round about to see her that had done this thing."

If He did'nt know who touched Him how did He know it was a her?

Now bout this Israel thing,do you know who Israel is

First of all, when studying Biblical history and prophecy, you mustn't confuse the House of Israel with the House of Judah. When you see the 'House of Israel' written of in the scriptures, it refers to the Ten Northern Tribes of Israel (now referred to as the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel). But when you see the 'House of Judah' spoken of, it refers to the Southern Kingdom consisting of peoples of the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

Originally, when the Houses were still joined together, there were twelve Tribes. These Twelve Tribes became split into two Houses, one called the Northern Kingdom with it's Capitol at Samaria, and the other called the Southern Kingdom with it's Capitol at Jerusalem. To this very day they are split, with the Ten Northern tribes having lost all knowledge of their identity, as was prophesied of to happen in Scripture:

Rom 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (KJV)

But what ever became of Israel (the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel)? After a three years siege and the final fall of Samaria with it's becoming of an Assyrian Province in 611 B.C. (722 B.C. by profane history), Israel ceased to be and dropped out of history.

But Israel (the Ten Lost Tribes) were never lost to God, they migrated North over the Caucasus Mountains (where we get our word 'Caucasian' from) and settled Europe, eventually populating Scotland, Ireland, Britain, Iceland, and ultimately crossing westward over the seas and established the Americas.

Yes we are the descendants of the lost Northern Ten Tribes of Israel. We are the chosen people of God. Look around the world, who is the last light of hope in the world? That does not mean that we are Jewish, for as you see by the division of the original 12 tribes descended from Jacob/Israel; Judah is only one of those twelve tribes, and Jews are only a small portion of them who mixed with the heathen both physically and religiously. As of Jan 2, 2000, there are only 13 million Jews on the planet (as per http://www.adherents.com), that is less than 1% of the total global population which is 6,099,686,302 (6 billion plus) as of 44 EDT Oct 1, 2000 per Popclockâ„¢. But in God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob He promised:

Gen 13:16
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. (KJV)

Gen 17:4
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. (KJV)

Gen 28:14
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. (KJV)

Gen 35:11
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins; (KJV)

Gen 32:12
12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude. (KJV)

Rom 9:27
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: (KJV)

You do believe God don't you? I know you do. Well then, where are all these people now?!? Those that we now call 'Jews' today are only a portion of the true Tribe of Judah who have intermixed with their Babylonian captors, the heathen and profane descendants of Cain, the first murderer. In other words, all those of the tribe of Judah are not Jews, and none of the lost Ten Tribes are Jews. It is important to understand the differences so that you know who the Bible is speaking about in a particular verse.

That is why in the New Testament, those who betrayed Christ and forced Pontius Pilot's hand into crucifying Jesus Christ were the High Jewish Priest Ca'-ia-phas and the Jewish Temple Hierarchy. They were corrupted both in morals and genealogy, and this explains why Jesus called them 'sons of Cain,' the son of the devil {Jn 8:44} whom was the first murderer in the Garden of Eden. Cain was not of the 12 tribes of Jacob (Israel and Judah combined), but his offspring, the Kenites, which means sons (offspring, no gender implied) of Cain, had intermixed with some of the true Tribe of Judah. These Kenites have mixed with all races and tribes of people on the earth. A Kenite is a descendant of Cain, the same Cain who was the first murderer in the Garden of Eden. Below is a definition from the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance:

Kenite: Hebrew word #7017 Qeyniy (kay-nee'); or Qiyniy (1st Chron. 2:55) (kee-nee'); patronymic from Hebrew word #7014 (see below); a Kenite or member of the tribe of Kajin [Cain]:

Cain: Hebrew word #7014 Qayin: As a proper noun, masculine: Cain = "possession"; the oldest son of Adam and Eve and the first murderer, having murdered his brother Abel.

"...and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name..." {Isa 62:2}

The Old Testament Prophets told that God would change the name of His people. They would be named after Him. And by the name "Christians" they were named after God. Jesus, which in the Hebrew language is: Yehoshua, which means: Yehovah’s (God’s) Savior, Salvation of Yehovah (God). And with Christ, His followers are called Christ men, hence: Christians.

So then, in the New Testament prophecies in the book of Revelation, Christians are Israel, God’s chosen, called by a new name (Isa 62:2 below), called by His name - Jesus Christ - Christ men - Christians.

Isa 62:2
2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. (KJV)

Isa 62:12
12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. (KJV)

Isa 65:15
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name (KJV)

Jer 33:16
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. (KJV)

Acts 11:26
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (KJV)

This should clear up Revelation chapter seven where the 144,000 "sealed of Israel" are mentioned, they are Christians who, since the Assyrian captivity and deportations of 611 B.C. were stripped of their name Israel! As it is written, because of idolatry, God caused Israel to not know who they are, and the rest of the world is also ignorant as to who true Israel is today:

Deut 32:26 (God speaking)
26 I said, I would scatter them [Israel] into corners [all corners of the world], I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men (KJV)

They (Israel) are mentioned in the New Testament though, for example, the book of James is written to them, written to us: "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." {James 1:1}. And again: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." {1 Pet 1:1-2}.

The church is still a mystery to some. Of course Paul wrote of the rapture, and it too was a mystery hidden in God

What is the definition of church

1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly

a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating

b) the assembly of the Israelites

c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously

d) in a Christian sense

1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting

2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake

3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body

4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth

5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven

The Church is no mystery

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

It is still a mystery to all those of a post-trib persuasion.

Do you understand what the mystery is in this verse?

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

Paul is now going to show us a mystery that deals with our generation, for a mystery is something that cannot be understood. However, when the details and clues of the mystery are know, then it is no longer a mystery. This mystery deals with a time when something is going to happen all over the earth to all flesh bodies, when these flesh bodies are not die anymore. Why will this be? Because all people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies.

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The time that it will take to change all the physical or natural bodies on this earth into their spiritual bodies will be faster than you can wink your eye. It is instant. Paul is telling us that this change will come "at the last trump", and that is when there are no more trumps. He identifies that trumpet as the seventh trumpet, and we know that this is the very moment when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to establish His Millennium kingdom, right here on earth. We are talking about God's trumpets here and on the sixth trumpet Satan comes to earth to deceive the whole world.

If you are waiting for a rapture, then you are going to be raptured by someone other than Jesus Christ for He is coming to earth to set up His kingdom here. The seventh trump is the exact time when the change takes place, and at no other place.

The bible separates the church from Israel. Did you notice who the 12 disciples preached to?

Acts 11:19 "Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only."

Remember that the ten tribes were scattered long before Judah went into Captivity, and because of this, the term "but to the Jews only", should read "but to Israel only." Jesus spoke of this in Matthew 10:6 "But rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." This is not the house of Judah, the Jews, but to the "House of Israel". The house of Israel includes Judah. Judah is only one tribe of twelve.

So we see that the Christians that were scattered at the time of Stephen's death, were preachig to only those of the scattered Israelites, all twelve tribes, thirteen when you consider Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph's double portion.

Today this house of Israel is scattered over all the world, and Hosea has told us long ago how we would recognize them, in Hosea 1:10; "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, `Ye are not My People,' there it shall be said unto them, `Ye are the sons of the living God'. "

Where ever those people are in the world today, two thing is for sure in identifing these people. First is that they do not know that they are of Israel, they call themselves something other then Israel, like Americans, British, French and so on. Secondly those people will call themselves Christians, a Christian nation. Jesus Christ is the Living God, and those that are of Christ are sons of the Living God.

Where is the death shown in chapter 7? Sorry, but these have not died, as you suppose. Neither have you considered the timing. the fifth seal was broken as soon as Jesus arrived in heaven, after His ascension. It was in time for James and Stephen. It will include all who are martyred during the church age. On the other hand, John saw this great crowd in heaven, right after the 6th seal, still in our future. It is at the 6th seal, that the church will be raptured. of course John sees the church in heaven, soon after the sixth seal. So, diffferent group of people.

In order for these people to be in Heaven they had to have died

And please show me where John see'e the raptured Church

Since you can't even keep Satan separated from the "man of sin," why should we believe your "take" on 2 Thes 2? Satan is cast into the lake of fire at a different time than the man of sin, proving your theory wrong. Next, I am not a Greek scholor, so I must rely on those that are. I can look (and I have) at every translation available, and they all pretty much say the same thing, except for how the one word, "apostasia" is translated. Here as an example:

It's not a theory,satan is the man of sin the son of perdition

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. How will we know who he is when he arrives?

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

This beast "thou [John] sawest", was in the first earth age; and is not on this earth now, as it is written in Revelation 12:7. Satan is in heaven being our accuser, and will be cast out to this earth very shortly by Michael.

"And shall ascend out of the bottomless pit; and go into perdition;" Who is he again? He is Satan the Antichrist. Satan is not a man born of woman, but a "supernatural arch angel". In Ezekiel 28 it is written that Satan [Lucifer] is the most beautiful of all God's created beings.

In Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lu'-ci-fer [day star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Lucifer then is another name for Satan; he is also called the Dragon, the serpent, and many other names accounting for the roles he plays, and in our generation he will also be called the "Antichrist".

Isaiah 14:13; "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Satan is saying, I'm going to be God, and be above the sons [stars] of God. The "mount of the congregation" is on mount Zion; and that is "the side of the north" where Jesus Christ's temple will be.

Isaiah 14:14; "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Satan is saying again, he is going to be God.

Isaiah 14:15; "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit."

Who is this that is going into the pit? Who is this son of perdition? It is Lucifer, who is Satan, the "son of perdition". The "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2:3 is none other than Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ. Paul then is saying that the true Christ, Jesus Christ, will not return to earth until this "apostasy" takes place first.

Isaiah 14:16; "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Following Jesus Christ's return to earth, and when the Antichrist [Satan] is safely in the pit; the world will wonder; how could Satan have shook all the kingdoms? They simply can't believe that they were deceived into believing this man to be God. Are you going to be one of those deceived into believing Satan is the Christ, or do you know the difference?

Paul is saying to the Thessalonians that Jesus Christ will not come, or will their be a gathering of the saints until you see the Antichrist [son of perdition] first. It takes a lot of guts to take the word of a false preacher, over Paul, Jesus, John, Isaiah, and a whole host of other prophets and disciples. This "apostasy" [falling away] is caused by the "son of perdition", and you will see him live and in person, very shortly.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

The "Son of perdition" is Satan and Isaiah just told us this very same thing. Remember, the temple of God is on mount Zion, and "on the side of the North". This person sitting there is sitting in God's seat, pretending to be God: "Showing himself that he is God."

"Satan claiming to be God" is the abomination, and "he" [Satan] is the desolator, for the entire world will believe him; except for God's elect, and all those who have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads]. The sealed of God have their gospel armor on, and they are ready to face Satan and his system in the spiritual warfare.

We are given the exact time of the Antichrist's arrival upon the earth in Revelation 9:1. It is at the sounding of the FIFTH TRUMPET. The trumpets are sounded in order, and the fifth trumpet is prior to the seventh. It can't be that hard to understand. Satan will be God to all the people of the world, including all Christians who do NOT have the seal of God in their minds [foreheads], to know the truth. The fall is because they will not take the simplicity and understanding in which Christ taught.

The whole purpose for Paul to write the II Thessalonians letter, was to warn that church, as well as the churches of today, of the errors in teaching that others were making of his first letter. Don't expect Christ's return to soon, for these things of II Thessalonians 2:1-4 must take place first.

 

[lecoop]

But Israel (the Ten Lost Tribes) were never lost to God, they migrated North over the Caucasus Mountains (where we get our word 'Caucasian' from) and settled Europe, eventually populating Scotland, Ireland, Britain, Iceland, and ultimately crossing westward over the seas and established the Americas.

DNA tests could, of course, prove this theory true - if it was true - that the European immigrants to the US were part of the lost 10 tribes. However, it is just one more of onelove's theorys, and has never been proven. Herbert W Armstrong used to preach this theory also.

How many people lived in Europe when some of the lost ten tribes migrated there - that is - in comparison to the number of Israel that migrated there? Of course, those already there were a VAST majority: Israel would have made a VERY small percentage of Europe. To say then, that those that migraged here were part of the 10 lost tribes of Israel, is silly. Perhaps a VERY small percentage were.

Next, DNA tests have been done all over America, and compared with all over Europe, Africa, and Asia, to research migration patterns. This theory was then proven false. Some of our ancestors did migrate from the MidEast, but also from Asia, and from Africa.

True born again people, are indeed sons and daughters of Abraham, but "spiritual" sons and daughters.

If onelove thinks he is a descendant of one of the sons of Joseph, it would be very interesting to see if Israel would accept him under the "Law of Return."

If He did'nt know who touched Him how did He know it was a her?

The writer, after the fact, knew it was a her, and included it in this sentence. Folks, if we would just read without preconceived glasses, we can read what Jesus did know:

30And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

This is all that Jesus knew at that moment of time. Sure, the Holy Spirit knew, but did not tell Jesus. He had to find out just the way he did: by questioning.

The Church is no mystery

Of course it is not a mystery today, for when a mystery is revealed, it is no longer a mystery.

REad what Paul wrote:

Ephesians
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

I have been writing of the Gentile church of which we are a part. At the time of the Olivet discourse, this Gentile church was a total mystery, hidden in the Father. People can argue - but it won't change this fact. When the nation of Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, after His death and resurrection, and after waiting for a few years to give them time to repent, God turned to the Gentiles, and raised up the Gentile church, of which we are a part. Paul did say that there is neither Jew nor Greek - but that fact cannot annul the verse above. Paul also said, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek - making a distinction. The point is, at the time of the Olivet discourse, neither the Jewish church, nor the Gentile church was in existance.

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

The rapture had been a mystery hidden in God, because no other man have ever had a revelation of this event. In fact, during the lives of the disciples, Paul only was given this revelation. It is not a mystery now, just as onelove says, because Paul wrote about his revelation, and now we know. However, the timing of this event is still a mystery to many.

If you are waiting for a rapture, then you are going to be raptured by someone other than Jesus Christ for He is coming to earth to set up His kingdom here. The seventh trump is the exact time when the change takes place, and at no other place.

This quote shows that the rapture is still a mystery to onelove.

Remember that the ten tribes were scattered long before Judah went into Captivity, and because of this, the term "but to the Jews only", should read "but to Israel only." Jesus spoke of this in Matthew 10:6 "But rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." This is not the house of Judah, the Jews, but to the "House of Israel". The house of Israel includes Judah. Judah is only one tribe of twelve.

Did Luke make a mistake? How could such a thing be? The question is, what did the term "Jew" mean to Luke and the readers then?

What did "Jew" mean the first time it was used in the bible?

Esther 2:5
Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew, whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the son of Kish, a Benjamite;

Hmmm!

Paul himself said, "Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia" (Acts 21:39 KJV) and ""I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1 KJV)

So was Paul a Jew, or was he a Benjamite? By ancestry, he was a Benjamite. By religion, he was a Jew. The same could be said for Mordecai: he was a Jew, because His religion centered in Judea.

Therefore, when Luke used the term "to the 'Jew' only," he was not referring to ancestry, but to religion. They preached in synogogues, to Jews, or to those of the religion centered in Judea. The word "Jew" in the common venacular of today, carries the same meaning. A modern dictionary says of "Jew:"

1. one of a scattered group of people that traces its descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from postexilic adherents of Judaism; Israelite.
2. a person whose religion is Judaism.
3. a subject of the ancient kingdom of Judah.
(Emphasis added)

So we see that the Christians that were scattered at the time of Stephen's death, were preachig to only those of the scattered Israelites, all twelve tribes, thirteen when you consider Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph's double portion.

I agree.

In order for these people [the great crowd in Rev 7] to be in Heaven they had to have died

How did Enoch and Elijah get there?

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

coop
DNA tests could, of course, prove this theory true - if it was true - that the European immigrants to the US were part of the lost 10 tribes. However, it is just one more of onelove's theorys, and has never been proven. Herbert W Armstrong used to preach this theory also.

You really don't understand

The word Jew comes from a Greek word meaning descendent of the tribe of Judah, or someone living in the land of Judea. Today's Jews call themselves Jews to falsely imply that they are somehow descendent from the Biblical tribe of Judah. When asked the question, "Who is Israel? - Who is a Jew?", the Israeli Government's Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) unhesitatingly answered thus [emphasis added]:

The term Israelite is purely Biblical.
An Israeli is a citizen of Israel, regardless of religion.
A Jew is a person anywhere in the world born to a Jewish mother, or converted to Judaism, who is thus identified as a member of the Jewish people and religion.
-- Information Division, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Jerusalem; Feb, 1998.

"Strictly speaking, it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a "Jew." Or to call a contemporary Jew [an] "Israelite," or a "Hebrew." The first Hebrews may not have been Jews at all, and contemporary Palestinians, by their own definition of the term "Palestinian," have to include Jews among their own people."

--The Jewish Almanac, Oct., 1980, page 3, Bantam Books, Inc. Under a headline entitled... 'Identity Crisis'.

In the Old Testament we had a man in Christ’s genealogy named Eber {Gen 11:16} (spelled Heber in N.T. {Luke 3:35}). From him we get the name Hebrews. Then in the process of time, through Heber’s family we came to Abraham, who begat Isaac, who begat Jacob. Now God changed Jacob’s name to Israel and he had 12 sons.

These twelve sons are the Patriarchs (founding fathers) of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. There was no such thing as Israel in the Bible until these twelve sons were born (approx. 1775-1728 B.C.). And God changes Jacob's name to Israel in (Gen 32:28 - approx.1739 B.C.). So prior to this the family of Adam (Formed in 4004 B.C.) was God’s chosen and it was they whom through the promise was to come.

(Note if you think all people came from Adam and Eve you really won't understand)

The Southern Kingdom:
Consisted of two of the tribes (Judah and Benjamin) and were called Judah with their capital in Jerusalem

The Northern Kingdom:
Consisting of the other Ten Tribes were called Israel and their capital was at Samaria.

In the process of time SOME of the Kingdom of Judah were allowed to return to Jerusalem, most did not. So this small contingent of the Tribe of Judah stayed in Jerusalem and intermarried with the Babylonians, as well as the Edomites (sons of Esau Jacob/Israels’s brother by Isaac) and the Kenites (sons of Cain, which was the son of the serpent/satan {Gen 3:15}). These formed their own religion that was much different than the Old Testament religion of the Hebrews. These who are now called "Jews" added to the Old Testament Scriptures their own "Oral Law" called Talmud. This of course was a corruption of God’s Old Testament religion and the work of satan.

It is these Jews that were in control of the Temple during Christ’s time, it is them that Christ so often chastised and rebuked, it is them that Jesus told:

John 8:44
44 Ye are of [progeny; Greek word #1537 ek (out of)] your father the devil [satan - the serpent in the Garden of Eden], and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning [Cain - Kenites], and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it [satan/serpent uttered first lie (Gen 3:4)]. (KJV)

So in a perversion of truth, these Jews call themselves the chosen of God but in fact are the offspring of Judah that intermarried with the heathen peoples and formed their own perverted religion that disobeys God at almost every turn. The Jewish Anti Defamation League (among others) has suppressed this type of information and labels those who teach it as "anti-Semitic" or "racist" to discredit them, hide the truth, and proliferate the apostasy away from God (though some racists take this teaching and equally in ignorance use it in hate, we are not among that group). But the term "anti-Semetic" is itself a misnomer, for those called "Jews" have very little if any Semitic blood in their veins and they have apostate into heathen religion and forsook God. They have more blood of Cain (Kenites) and the Edomites (Esua - Khazer Jews of Russia) in their veins than blood of Israel or true Judah for that matter. Call it the fox in the hen house if you will. But NOT ALL HEBREW PEOPLE ARE JEWS, in fact, very very very few Hebrew peoples became Jews, and true Israel and true Judah know not who they are.

Gen 32:9-12
9 And Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, the LORD which saidst unto me, Return unto thy country, and to thy kindred, and I will deal well with thee................(Gen 32:12) And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude. (KJV)

Well, there are only 13 million Jews on the Planet of over 6 billion people (less that one percent) so where is the multitude as the sand of the sea?

The Old Testament Prophets told that God would change the name of His people. They would be named after Him. And by the name "Christians" they were named after God. Jesus, which in the Hebrew language is: Yehoshua, which means: Yehovah’s (God’s) Savior, Salvation of Yehovah (God). And with Christ, His followers are called Christ men, hence: Christians.

So then, in the New Testament prophecies in the book of Revelation, Christians are Israel, God’s chosen, called by a new name (Isa 62:2 below), called by His name - Jesus Christ - Christ men - Christians.

Isa 62:2
2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name. (KJV)

Isa 62:12
12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. (KJV)

Isa 65:15
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name (KJV)

Jer 33:16
16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness. (KJV)

Acts 11:26
26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. (KJV)

True born again people, are indeed sons and daughters of Abraham, but "spiritual" sons and daughters.

If onelove thinks he is a descendant of one of the sons of Joseph, it would be very interesting to see if Israel would accept him under the "Law of Return."

Israel does not consist of only Jews as proven above/

The writer, after the fact, knew it was a her, and included it in this sentence. Folks, if we would just read without preconceived glasses, we can read what Jesus did know:

Im not even going to comment on this,because for you to say Christ was limeted in His knowledge is foolishness

I have been writing of the Gentile church of which we are a part. At the time of the Olivet discourse, this Gentile church was a total mystery, hidden in the Father. People can argue - but it won't change this fact. When the nation of Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah, after His death and resurrection, and after waiting for a few years to give them time to repent, God turned to the Gentiles, and raised up the Gentile church, of which we are a part. Paul did say that there is neither Jew nor Greek - but that fact cannot annul the verse above. Paul also said, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek - making a distinction. The point is, at the time of the Olivet discourse, neither the Jewish church, nor the Gentile church was in existance.

First,you are missing the point in the verses you supplied,to go by your reasoning,almost 90% of the Bible has nothing to do with us,especially the Old testament,second if the Olivet Dicourse was not written to us can you please tell me who then was it written to?

Ephesians 3:1 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,"

Paul is reminding us that as he is writing this letter, he is a prisoner in jail, because he preaches the gospel to the Gentiles.

Ephesians 3:2 "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward."

Ephesians 3:3 "How that by revelation He made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,"

Ephesians 3:4 "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"

The above three verses are a statement which must be given together, for they make a certain statement. Paul is referring us back to the letter of Romans, and verses found in Romans 16:25-26. Let's go to it.

Romans 16:25 "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began [hath been kept in silence through times eternal],"

Romans 16:26 "But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:"

The fact that the mystery has been made known should tell you who and what Jesus was referring to in the Olivet Discourse.and it was written to us,Christains

Ephesians 3:5 "Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,"

The apostles are of the New Covenant [Testament], while the Prophets are of the Old Testament. Paul is telling us that the truth of this entire earth age is given in both the Old and the New Testaments. This mystery was not a mystery in either period of time. All was foretold in the Old Testament, and revealed through Apostles also later.

Ephesians 3:6 "That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:"

The rapture had been a mystery hidden in God, because no other man have ever had a revelation of this event. In fact, during the lives of the disciples, Paul only was given this revelation. It is not a mystery now, just as onelove says, because Paul wrote about his revelation, and now we know. However, the timing of this event is still a mystery to many.

Where is the rapture written of in the Old Testament?

How did Enoch and Elijah get there?

They were not raptured,and they were not an example of one