The rapture of the Church

[turnorburn]

Sorry, I got busy, I'm trying to picture how we'll all look at the marriage supper of the lamb. The day you refer to is that the day the end time engines were started? Like when Israel became a nation?

Btw, I was born that year.. Praise The Lord!

 

[GraceBwithU]

II Coming God made :-D

Rapture Man made :

Not at all. All these arguments against the rapture are what is man made. You know as well as I do, that the scriptures say that we who are alive and remain will be "caught up*" into the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, the "rapture" is NOT man made, it is God breathed, and as surely as the sun comes up tomorrow, will soon take place. Will Jesus be "coming" for the rapture? Of course, because it is written that we meet Him in the air. Therefore, the rapture will be a "coming." Is it the same "coming" that every eye will see? Of course not, because He will be in the clouds in the air. There are no words that tell us He will be seen at that time. He purposely hides in the clouds.

Paul does not tell us that He descends to the earth at that time, either. No, He takes us to the mansions in the sky. It is written, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Any beginning reader would tell us that this verse is telling us Jesus will come and get us, not to leave us on earth, but to take us to the place He has prepared for us. When Jesus went, where did He go? Of course, to heaven, to be at the right hand of the Father. But this verse tells us that He also went to prepare mansions for us, while He has been there over this last 2000 years. Many, many saints have been allowed to go to heaven, see the city and the mansions, and return to tell us about them. The question is, do you, the reader, have faith in Jesus' words? Do you really believe what He told us here? If you are born again, Jesus has built you a home in heaven! Believe it!

When He comes to be seen, it will be dark, and He will be seen light lightning in a dark sky. Then His glory will light up the world, and all will know that He is here. This is scripture. We can believe it. Don't be led off into doctrines of devils. Jesus is coming for those that are looking for Him. Are you prepared to meet Him tonight? Be ready!



(* English word "rapture" derived from Latin word rapio (rapere, raptus). 1. Meaning: to carry away, to be caught up, to snatch, seize, pluck, drag)

Coop

I was like you once. Sold hook line and sinker on the Hollywood, left behind series books on a pre-trib rapture. The I studied the scripture and the origin of this belief. the belief nevrver existed until the 19th century. Yes it is only about 170 years old. It came from a published interpretation of a vision of a 15 year old girl.

1 Th 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

In these verses you see that Paul tells us of of "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds," With them...who is them...them is the ressurected dead in Christ... those asleep.
These verses do not say anything about when this will be, but they do give us an important clue. There will be a resurrection and they will go first. That means that they have to be resurrected before we will meet him in the air. When is the first resurrection...it is named by John in Rev 20:4-6. which is after the tribulation.

After reading and studying al of the scriptures I found that there was obsolutely zero that would support a pre-trib rapture but tons that would simply show that it and the second coming of Christ is the same event...in a twinkling of an eye it all happens. and it happens when Christ returns. Sorry friend but you should be careful not to depend too much on hollywood for Biblical true. the pre-trib rapture idea sells tickets, but it is biblically unsupported. It doesn't even make sense if you think about it. :D Just keep watching.

Like the guy said it is all man made...period.

 

[lecoop]

I was like you once. Sold hook line and sinker on the Hollywood, left behind series books on a pre-trib rapture. The I studied the scripture and the origin of this belief. the belief nevrver existed until the 19th century. Yes it is only about 170 years old. It came from a published interpretation of a vision of a 15 year old girl.

1 Th 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

In these verses you see that Paul tells us of of "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds," With them...who is them...them is the ressurected dead in Christ... those asleep.
These verses do not say anything about when this will be, but they do give us an important clue. There will be a resurrection and they will go first. That means that they have to be resurrected before we will meet him in the air. When is the first resurrection...it is named by John in Rev 20:4-6. which is after the tribulation.

Ah! I see! But now I also see that you are reading something into these verses that simple is not there, and you are confused as to when the doctrine of a pretrib rapture started! Please read carefully.

Rev 20
4...I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5...This is the first resurrection.
(part of verse 5 taken out of sequence)
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Please note, there are first, they that sat on the thrones, and second, those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. So, who are the "they" that sat on the thrones? Any guesses? Both of these groups will reign with Christ for 1000 years. They are part of the "first resurrection." But you have to ask yourself, did John see the actual resurrection? NO! A resounding NO! He is not telling us that he saw them resurrected here, after the 70th week has finished. Note, all he is saying is that he saw them, already resurrected, and already setting on thrones - but he saw this in vison form. Do we know how long after the resurrection this would have been? Again, no! This vision could have been a glimpse perhaps of 10 years after the start of the millennial reign - or 100 years! Did you ever stop to think, it had to be after the marriage and marriage supper? So you cannot logically suppose that the "first" resurrection took place at this moment in time. You have been reading that idea into these verses.

Did he see headless people? No, of course not, but somehow, he knew that this second group were those that had been beheaded during the 70th week. Again, he did NOT say that he saw their resurrection, or saw the very moment that they were resurrected! No, all he is saying is that he saw them sometime after they had been resurrected. It would be very illogical to think that they went from dead in Christ to seated on thrones in a moment's time. No, John is not telling us that. First, they would meet Jesus in the air. Next, they would be taken to their mansion in the sky. After all, Jesus said that is what He would do. Next, some time spent in fellowship and worship. You know as will as I do, that there WILL BE some worship of God and the Son, after the resurrection, but before anything else is done! Then there will be the marriage, and finally the marriage supper. Sorry, you just cannot take them from dead in Christ to thrones in the millenium.

Then John brings in another group of people:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. [part of verse five shown with previous verse]

Who are the "rest of the dead?"

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God...
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

We can see then, that the "rest of the dead" are limited to sinners - all those not included in the first resurrection. John is then telling us that all people, 100% of the people born since Adam, and including Adam, will be resurrected at one time or another, some in the "first" resurrection, which leads to eternal life, and some in a "second" resurrection associated with the "second death."

This is NOT speaking of men such as that man that rose from the dead, when he was pushed into the grave and fell on the bones of Elisha! Or lazarus, when Jesus rose him from the dead, or Dorcus, when Peter prayed for her to rise. No, all those temporarily risen from the dead, did not get resurrection bodies - they got the old, decaying bodies they were born with, and that would soon die again. Who was the first to get a resurrection body?

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

We know that Jesus was not the first human to be risen from the dead. Scriptures tell us of many others that were risen before Him. So this MUST then have another meaning. I believe Paul is telling us that Jesus was the very first human to recieve a "resurrection" body - a flesh and bone body such as the disciples saw when Jesus appeared to them.

We then have to ask, since John divided ALL resurrections into two groups, and two groups only: the first resurrection, and by default but not mentioned, the second resurrection associated with the second death; which one of these two groups would Jesus fit into? Of course, the first resurrection! Then we must ask ourselves about those old testament saints that rose from the dead at Jesus death, and were seen in Jerusalem: which resurrection were they a part of? Again, of course they were a part of the first resurrection.

You see, my friend, you cannot just lightly read over some scripture and immediately determine that those dilegent and studied in the word before our generation were totally wrong. People before us have asked questions that have never dawned on us to even ask. I ask you: with which of these two resurrections mentions by John, do you put Jesus' resurrection? If you say that His don't count, or cannot be put into either of these, then you must say that first does not mean first. Get what I mean? it all comes down to what you think John meant by his God given term, "first resurrection." I say that John has divided all humans into two groups, by the timing of their resurrection to a supernatural body: the first group are righteous, and can never be touched by the second death, and the second group are unrighteous and will be a part of the second death. Therefore, ALL resurrections to an incorruptable body, MUST indeed fit into one of these two groups.

After reading and studying al of the scriptures I found that there was obsolutely zero that would support a pre-trib rapture but tons that would simply show that it and the second coming of Christ is the same event...in a twinkling of an eye it all happens. and it happens when Christ returns. Sorry friend but you should be careful not to depend too much on hollywood for Biblical true. the pre-trib rapture idea sells tickets, but it is biblically unsupported. It doesn't even make sense if you think about it. :D Just keep watching.

Like the guy said it is all man made...period.

Hollywood knows little of the truth of the scriptures. "In the twinkling of an eye," you say. So in your mind, at the moment that the timing of those verses in Rev 20 come about, people will be dead in Christ one moment, and the next moment will be seated on thrones judging during the millennial reign? I don't think so. Since you have not commented on the crowd without number, as seen in Rev 7, please tell us, since you obviously don't think they are the raptured church - who are they?

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Sorry, double entry, for some reason. Deleted.

 

[GraceBwithU]

lecoop,

The belief I stated is not just in my mind it is in the scripture.

Any serious study of the Rapture must start with the verses in 1 Th 4:13-18.

1 Th 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
KJV

These verses without a doubt speak of a resurrection. They also say, not once but twice that the resurrection will happen before we meet Christ in the air. The "FIRST" resurrection is mentioned in Chapter Rev 20: 4-6 like I said. If this is the first then there could not have been one before this. If you are first in line, there is no one going before you do.

Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

Rv 7:13- 14
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
KJV

Here John is not witnessing the first resurrection, (rapture); he is seeing the results of it. However, a question is asked and the elder answers John by saying, “These are they which came out of great tribulationâ€Â

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

Here again, in these scriptures that John is seeing the results of the “first resurrectionâ€Â, (rapture) not the actual resurrection. But he described the souls as “souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands†At this point John has witnessed the results of all that were part of the “first resurrectionâ€Â, then he gives it a name, “This is the first resurrection.†If this is the first resurrection then there has not been another before it.

Please note, there are first, they that sat on the thrones, and second, those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. So, who are the "they" that sat on the thrones? Any guesses?

Odd that you would stop where you did. You stopped though because you want to ignore the full discription of these souls. it goes on to say, "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"

These souls were beheaded because the refused to worship the anti-christ and take his mark. They worshipped Jesus instead. They were resurrected after the tribulation. They went through it. John is seeing the results, by these souls that went through the tribulation being part of the first resurrection, it clearly places the first resurrection after the tribulation.

They are other scriptures that follow very closely to the scripture in 1 THe 4:13-18.

Mt 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

How plain can it be put to you. To not see this you would have to twist the scripture here into something else that fits your preconceived belief.

There are only two mass resurrections. One at the end off the tribulation for the believers and one at the white throne judgment of the non-believers. Only two, just like there is only two comings of Christ, not three.

The pre-trib belief did not exist until the early 1800's. Before that it was not taught anywhere. Look it up. Here is a quote.

“There exists at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812, and by John Darby himself in 1827. However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations, as well.

The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is sometimes attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret MacDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision that was later published in 1861.†(Wikipedia)

So the pre-trib belief stemed mainly from an interpretation of a vision from a 15 year old girl....hummmm.

:D :D :-?

 

[Vic C.]

Hey there Coop, I see you got yourself a new debate sparring partner. :-D

The pre-trib belief did not exist until the early 1800's. Before that it was not taught anywhere. Look it up. Here is a quote.

This I agree with and will add that pretty much before that, they believed what the reformers believed... Premillennial Historicism or historicist premillennialism. Note that not all historicists are known to set dates and keep timetables.

From http://www.historicism.com/

"From the late 16th century until the 20th century, the historicist interpretation of prophecy, coupled with a "Premillennial" view of Revelation 20, was common among Bible-believing Protestants around the globe. That particular brand of end-times beliefs, called, "Premillennial Historicism," was accompanied by a great surge in world missions, the founding of many mission-minded Bible institutes and colleges, and a wealth of creative and doctrinally sound literature engaging the issues of the times. Some of the most influential men who shared the premillennial historicist interpretation, and lived during this period, included Henry Grattan Guinness, A. J. Gordon, Charles H. Spurgeon and A. B. Simpson."

 

[lecoop]

BraceBwithU wrote,

These verses without a doubt speak of a resurrection. They also say, not once but twice that the resurrection will happen before we meet Christ in the air. The "FIRST" resurrection is mentioned in Chapter Rev 20: 4-6 like I said. If this is the first then there could not have been one before this. If you are first in line, there is no one going before you do.

Yes, indeed it is MENTIONED there. However "there" was not when it happened. Can you pinpoint exactly WHEN this resurrection took place? Can you pinpoint exactly WHEN all of these on thrones were actually resurrected?

What was Jesus resurrection then, if not FIRST? One half? maybe minus 1? (I'm being silly to make a point.) Why was Jesus called the FIRSTborn from the dead? Did Jesus in fact rise from the dead, and receive a resurrection body? I thought that was what we celebrated at Easter. I also thought that event happened about 2000 years ago. Jesus was definitely the very first human being to be resurrected from the dead, and receive a resurrection body. Seems to be that that event would be "first" as compared to an event in our future. Sorry, but this point just cannot be ignored. Jesus was the FIRSTborn or the very first to be resurrection with a spiritual, flesh and bone body - the same body we will get soon.

Here John is not witnessing the first resurrection, (rapture); he is seeing the results of it. However, a question is asked and the elder answers John by saying, “These are they which came out of great tribulationâ€Â

Right! They did, in fact, come out of great tribulation. But what "great tribulation?" Following John's timeline, can you tell us where the "great tribulation" as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24:21 would be in Revelation? Can you pinpoint the abomination event, since we know that that time of great tribulation will start at the abomination and go on from that time? If this great crowd, too large to number, came out of this time of great tribulation, it must be that that period of time was before John saw the great crowd, or at least happened at this time. Agreed?

Here again, in these scriptures that John is seeing the results of the “first resurrectionâ€Â, (rapture) not the actual resurrection. But he described the souls as “souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands†At this point John has witnessed the results of all that were part of the “first resurrectionâ€Â, then he gives it a name, “This is the first resurrection.†If this is the first resurrection then there has not been another before it.

Right! "The results!" Therefore, we can't prove by this scripture, exactly when this "first resurrection" took place, can we? It could have been a week before, or it could have been seven years before, if this verse is all we had to go on. All we can tell by this scripture, is that at some time before this, the first resurrection took place. Again, I MUST point to Jesus' resurrection. If this is as you say, and there has not been another resurrection before this, then Jesus did NOT rise from the dead. End of story. As Paul said, our faith is in vein. But the fact is, Jesus did rise - and he rose 2000 years before us today. What will you do with this fact, that does not fit your scenario?

I don't think you are reading these verses closely enough. Notice these other translations.

American Standard Version
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Weymouth New Testament
20:4 And I saw thrones, and some who were seated on them, to whom judgment was entrusted. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded on account of the testimony that they had borne to Jesus and on account of God's Message, and also the souls of those who had not worshipped the Wild Beast or his statue, nor received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands; and they came to Life and were kings with Christ for a thousand years.

John is telling us of TWO groups of people here. There are some seated on thrones. There were NOT beheaded. Then there is a separate or second group that was beheaded. What did Paul tell us about our future?

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

and John:

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Does it not then, make sense that we, the church, will be sitting on thrones during the millennial reign of Christ? The truth is "some who were seated on them" is referring to the raptured church. Those on the throne were not beheaded. They were raptured!

Odd that you would stop where you did. You stopped though because you want to ignore the full discription of these souls. it goes on to say, "souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"

These souls were beheaded because the refused to worship the anti-christ and take his mark. They worshipped Jesus instead. They were resurrected after the tribulation. They went through it. John is seeing the results, by these souls that went through the tribulation being part of the first resurrection, it clearly places the first resurrection after the tribulation.

I agree. Those beheaded went through the tribulation. Why did they go through it? Very simply, because they missed the rapture of the church! Do you not realize what John and Daniel meant, when they said that the beast would "prevailed against" "and to overcome them?" This means that most of those going through these times will be put to death! The beast will be given authority "over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." How many Jews survived in Berlin during the holocaust? Answer? NONE! Some probably did excape, and leave, but I doubt if any survived that stayed in Berlin. It will be the same way over the entire planet after the abomination event. If someone chooses to serve God, they will be caught and beheaded! Perhaps one out of a thousand will survive, by hiding in wilderness areas. All the rest will die. Sorry, but we as the church have no appointment with God's wrath. Neither will we be here when Satan is venting his wrath through the beast. These people that are beheaded will be those that missed the rapture, and then turned to God after the 70th week has started.

Yes, of course those beheaded will be resurrected after the tribulation. Again, we are in agreement. But no matter how hard you try, you cannot get this verse to say that those seated on thrones were beheaded during the 70th week.

Next problem you have, is how to get these folks to the marriage supper! Sorry, but John makes it clear that the marriage supper will take place before Jesus returns on the white horse. In your scenario, the church misses that event.

The next problem you have to solve, is how the millenial reign gets populated! Who will we be reigning over? The bible makes it clear that there will be natural people, giving birth during this time. If the rapture takes place at the very end of the 70th week, then all righteous people will be instantly changed, receive their resurrection bodies, and for every more, will NOT be able to have children. And all the unrighteous, that is the goats, will be cast into hell. Therefore, no one to populate the millenium.

They are other scriptures that follow very closely to the scripture in 1 THe 4:13-18.

Mt 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

It may just be human imagination that thinks these verses are "very close" to what Paul wrote. It is just as possible that these verses are speaking of something entirely different. Jesus is giving us a timeline. There will be a tribulation that starts with the abomination event. It will last most of the 3 1/2 years of the second half of the 70th week. After "those days" if great tribulation, the cosmic signs will be seen. And then Jesus will descend. We find this in Revelation 19:11 on. Jesus on the white horse, descending to earth. He comes with "great glory." He sends out His angels to gather together the elect.

Many think this is speaking of the rapture. They are mistaken. AT this point in time, the church had not even started. The Gentile church of which we speak, was still a mystery hidden in God. Jesus was giving this discourse to Jewish men that had ask Him about the signs of the end. What end? Of course the end of the Jews! The end of the time of Jacob's trouble! Did you notice that it was not called, "Paul's trouble," as if it were for the Gentiles? No, it is a time for the Jews! Jesus discourse was, for the most part, not about the church at all, but about the Jews. There is coming a day, when God will send out angels, and bring every Jew back to Israel. He will gather them from heaven and earth. Are there verses that back this up? Of course.

Isaiah 27
12 And it shall come to pass in that day that the LORD will thresh, from the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt; and you will be gathered one by one, O you children of Israel.
13 So it shall be in that day: the great trumpet will be blown; they will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, and they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt,
and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem. (Emphasis Added)

Isaiah 11:12
12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Compare with "they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "

Yes, people will be "gathered" after the tribulation. However, it cannot be proved that this is the rapture. Please note, angels do the gathering. There are no angels gathering is at the rapture, according to Paul.

How plain can it be put to you. To not see this you would have to twist the scripture here into something else that fits your preconceived belief.

It is plain that there is a gathering. It is not at all plain that this is speaking of the rapture! On the contrary, it seems most likely NOT to be speaking about the church at all!

No twisting. But we have to have EVERY verse speaking of the end times fit - not just a few! You still have to solve how to populate the millenial kingdom with people in natural bodies. You have to find sheep for the sheep and goat judgement. You still have to get the church backwards in time to the marriage supper.

There are only two mass resurrections. One at the end off the tribulation for the believers and one at the white throne judgment of the non-believers. Only two, just like there is only two comings of Christ, not three.

Thank you. Please tell me which one of these would include Jesus' resurrection? Which one would include those that rose from their graves at Jesus death?

The pre-trib belief did not exist until the early 1800's. Before that it was not taught anywhere. Look it up. Here is a quote.

Sorry, but this is a man made falacy! The pretrib belief existed with Paul!

There exists at least one 18th century and two 19th century Pre-Tribulation references, in a book published in 1788, in the writings of a Catholic priest Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812, and by John Darby himself in 1827. However, both the book published in 1788 and the writings of Lacunza have opposing views regarding their interpretations, as well.

Shall we say that salvation by faith cannot be true, because it originated with Martin Luther? How silly would that be? Of course salvation by faith originated with the scriptures, just as the doctrine of the pretrib rapture. However, the knowledge of salvation by faith alone, nothing added, was lost to the church during the dark ages. That is why they were called 'dark." There was just no illumnation of God's word.

The rise in belief in the "Pre-Tribulation" rapture is sometimes attributed to a 15-year old Scottish-Irish girl named Margaret MacDonald (a follower of Edward Irving), who in 1830 had a vision that was later published in 1861.†(Wikipedia)

"sometimes"

Pretty shaky to establish a belief on "sometimes," and on what others have written about a believe that they themselves did not share. Would you go to an auto mechanic to recieve open heart surgery? I think not. Would you listen to a preacher that preaches against tongues as written by Paul, to learn the truth about tongues? I surely would not!

Rather then, study the word of God, to show yourself approved. What if the pretrib doctrine is the truth? What if Jesus is coming any day now, to take those that are looking for him, to heaven?Would this include you? Are you looking for that blessed hope, or are you looking for something else first? Please don't tell me that beliefs about the rapture are not important!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Hey there Coop, I see you got yourself a new debate sparring partner. :-D

Right!!!!! One more person that will be very surprised when millions disappear off the earth, before the 70th week even starts.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

Good, then you should't have a problem when your told to take the mark :wink:

 

[lecoop]

Good, then you should't have a problem when your told to take the mark :wink:

Have you not believed anything but your own posts here? I will not be here. I will be spending those 7 years in heaven. Only those that miss the rapture, because they are not "Looking for that blessed hope," will be forced to take the mark or lose their head.

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

Good, then you should't have a problem when your told to take the mark :wink:

Have you not believed anything but your own posts here? I will not be here. I will be spending those 7 years in heaven. Only those that miss the rapture, because they are not "Looking for that blessed hope," will be forced to take the mark or lose their head.

Coop

you'll be here, and you won't be prepared. when the mark is offered you may take it, thinking it couldn't be the mark because you are still here.
And like I said, there are only two resurrections. one for the believers...and one for the non believers. The resurrection in rev is the first one. John say it is. right after he indentified the beheaded souls that refused the mark during the tribulation. they have just been rtesurrected after the tribulation. After the dead in Christ then the ones still alive. Believe me I've read it all.

I agree. Those beheaded went through the tribulation. Why did they go through it? Very simply, because they missed the rapture of the church!

They couldn't have missed it the rapture includes the dead in Christ, and they go first....Sorry guy...no cigar Only two resurrections. these are in the first one as John says. The rapture is the first one and it is at the same time Christ comes. Christ doesn't come three times...only twice.

Shall we say that salvation by faith cannot be true, because it originated with Martin Luther?

Don't be silly Martin Luther did not establish faith or salvation. the way to salvation had already been taught by Jesus...1600 years before the man.

even Martha spoke of this first resurrection.

John 11:23-24
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
KJV

 

[turnorburn]

Hey Coop, I don't know what your

but its gonna get burned. No worries the Lord will put it out when he comes, but if you take that mark he won't be able to, you'll have to live with it.. :


In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[GraceBwithU]

lecoop,

Thank you. Please tell me which one of these would include Jesus' resurrection? Which one would include those that rose from their graves at Jesus death?

First of all Jesus' resurrection was for victory over sin. I had nothing to do with the resurrection in rev. at the Second coming. Rev was written in 95 A.D. John was seeing future events. Jesus was long gone.

Also the saints that slept and arose.

Matt 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

Notice it says they went in to the holy city and were seen by many. It doesn't say they went with Jesus. They could have even died again the same as Lazarus. The Bible really doesn't say.

The first resurrection that Rev talks about is a mass resurrection of believers at the Coming of Christ. :D

By the way...I have a question. Have you ever read Margaret MacDonald's vision that was published in 1861? The vision that is given credit for the rise in popularity of the pre-trib rapture belief. It's an interesting letter. :D

 

[lecoop]

lecoop,

Thank you. Please tell me which one of these would include Jesus' resurrection? Which one would include those that rose from their graves at Jesus death?

First of all Jesus' resurrection was for victory over sin. I had nothing to do with the resurrection in rev. at the Second coming. Rev was written in 95 A.D. John was seeing future events. Jesus was long gone.

Also the saints that slept and arose.

Thank you! Wow! That sure took a long time. But you are sadly mistaken. You said yourself, several times now that there are only two resurrections! Now you are adding to that number! Now which is the truth? Are there only two resurrections (from a dead physical body to a resurrection body) or are there more than two? John says two, and now you are adding to that number. YOu cannot deny that Jesus resurrection was indeed a resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

"Firstfruits" tell us there will be second and third and more fruits. And that is exactly what this means. Jesus was the first to receive a resurrection body, and after Him, those that rose when He died (they undoubtedly received their resurrection bodies soon after Jesus received His.) Then soon will be the church added to that number. They are all part of the "first resurrection."

Matt 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

Notice it says they went in to the holy city and were seen by many. It doesn't say they went with Jesus. They could have even died again the same as Lazarus. The Bible really doesn't say.

No, it does not say. But if they hung around, there would be verses telling us. There would be stories. They hung around long enough to be seen by a few, then went to heaven. If you want to believe it, people visiting heaven and coming back to tell us about it, have seen that Abraham and others of the old testament saints, already have their resurrection bodies. They were undoubtedly these that rose from the dead, when Jesus died.

[qoute]The first resurection that Rev talks about is a mass resurrection of believers at the Coming of Christ. :D[/quote]

Sorry, but you are reading into those verses what is simply not there. That is your idea of those verses. We have already established that John did not see this resurrection, and that it did NOT happen at the very moment of these verses. These people seen by John sitting on thrones had to have been resurrected some time previous to when John saw them. You say it was the moment that Jesus descended, and I say it was 7 years before that. Sorry, but you cannot use these verses to determine when. That information is simply not there, except for those beheaded.

And you still have not solved the delema you have caused by the rapture at Jesus' descent. If you are right (you are not however) who will be the sheep at the sheep and goat judgement? In your scenario, all the sheep received their resurrection bodies! Next, who in their natural bodies will populate the 1000 year reign of christ, to have kids? In your scenario, all the righteous will have been changed - so no kids. You painted yourself into a corner, so to speak.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

Earth to Coop earth to Coop, come in Coop, come in, your signal is fading, I missed that, please repeat, what was that Coop, you saw "What"! Earth to Coop, oh no it looks like we lost him!

Awe nuts! too late :

 

[GraceBwithU]

lecoop,

Thank you! Wow! That sure took a long time. But you are sadly mistaken. You said yourself, several times now that there are only two resurrections! Now you are adding to that number!

Quite frankly it is you that is adding to the number. are you just not reading what I say. You are the one that brought up Jesus and the saints that rose. Look back.

First of all Jesus' resurrection was for victory over sin. I had nothing to do with the resurrection in rev. at the Second coming. Rev was written in 95 A.D. John was seeing future events. Jesus was long gone.

Also the saints that slept and arose.

Matt 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

Notice it says they went in to the holy city and were seen by many. It doesn't say they went with Jesus. They could have even died again the same as Lazarus. The Bible really doesn't say.

I plainly stated that these resurrections had nothing to do with the mass resurrection of His church at His second coming. If you are going to debate at least don't twist what I have said...It makes you look foolish.

I'm sure you belief with all your heart about the pre-trib rapture. I did. But sorry to say it is 100% unbiblical.

Now instead of misquoting me and being wierd. Could you please give me a scripture that plainly says that Christ is going to come three times. Because that is what pre-tribers believe. That Christ is cgoing to come for His church and secretly gather millions of people away before the tribulation and no one will notice. Wow!

1 TH 5:2-6
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
KJV

He will come as a “thief in the nightâ€Â, without warning to the lost. We should “not sleep…watch and be soberâ€Â.(why? because we are still here.) If the gathering up of his elect was done at anytime before His Second Coming, His Second Coming would not be a surprise. People disappearing from cars, a church pew, even unborn children from wombs is not going to be something that will be secret and unnoticed. A thief does not call you on the phone and warn you that he will be breaking into your house soon.
:D

Matt 24:21-22
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Why does Jesus tell us this. He is telling us that for the sake of the elect the great tribulation will be shortened. He shortens it for our sake because we are here!

 

[n2thelight]

Acts 3:21 says that Jesus must remain in heaven until it is time for Him to restore everything. Which I see happening at the end of the Daniel’s Seventy Weeks. So, how does He get out of heaven before the tribulation period to Rapture the Church?â€Â

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things. The "restitution of all things" is "Apokatastasis" in the Greek, and means the re-establishment of all things from a state of ruin. All the prophets have talked of this time of the Millennium since this world age begin.

It is written that on the first day of the Millennium age, at Christ's return, every knee shall bow to Christ. Romans 14:11; "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Jesus is quoting here from Isaiah 45:22, 23; "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." [22] "I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

"I have read several verses in Scripture where Christ in the Olivet Discourse is talking about the great distress (tribulation) of those days. Immediately after that, He says, the Son of Man will come in the clouds after the darkening of the sun, moon and stars which is a sign before the Day of the Lord. Then He says you will see the Son of Man in the clouds and He will send His angles with a trumpet call and gather His elect. So, here you have the tribulation period and Christ coming after the tribulation period. Says the same thing in Luke. And Paul says the same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2 as he talks about letting no one deceive you in any way for that Day, your gathering the coming of the Lord will not occur until two things happen. The rebellion and the man of lawlessness being revealed, that after the tribulation. Here’s my question. Is there any Scripture or verses or passages in Scripture that place the return of Christ before either the appearing of the Antichrist, the tribulation period or the Great Tribulation? Any Scripture, nobody has been able to show me any, so far."

Richard Perry

Can any rapturist answer the questions above?

 

[GraceBwithU]

Acts 3:21 says that Jesus must remain in heaven until it is time for Him to restore everything. Which I see happening at the end of the Daniel’s Seventy Weeks. So, how does He get out of heaven before the tribulation period to Rapture the Church?â€Â

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things. The "restitution of all things" is "Apokatastasis" in the Greek, and means the re-establishment of all things from a state of ruin. All the prophets have talked of this time of the Millennium since this world age begin.

It is written that on the first day of the Millennium age, at Christ's return, every knee shall bow to Christ. Romans 14:11; "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Jesus is quoting here from Isaiah 45:22, 23; "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." [22] "I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

"I have read several verses in Scripture where Christ in the Olivet Discourse is talking about the great distress (tribulation) of those days. Immediately after that, He says, the Son of Man will come in the clouds after the darkening of the sun, moon and stars which is a sign before the Day of the Lord. Then He says you will see the Son of Man in the clouds and He will send His angles with a trumpet call and gather His elect. So, here you have the tribulation period and Christ coming after the tribulation period. Says the same thing in Luke. And Paul says the same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2 as he talks about letting no one deceive you in any way for that Day, your gathering the coming of the Lord will not occur until two things happen. The rebellion and the man of lawlessness being revealed, that after the tribulation. Here’s my question. Is there any Scripture or verses or passages in Scripture that place the return of Christ before either the appearing of the Antichrist, the tribulation period or the Great Tribulation? Any Scripture, nobody has been able to show me any, so far."

Richard Perry

Can any rapturist answer the questions above?

Amen, brother. Good stuff! There is no scripture that supports Christ showing Himself to anyone until after the tribulation.

 

[turnorburn]

My hat is off to you, that is an excellent presentation..

 

[n2thelight]

There is a 130 year old false doctrine that has grown by leaps and bounds in the the last 30 or so years within the various 'Protestant type' denominations of Christianity. And that is known as "The Rapture Of The Church." I refer to the churches that take part in it as 'Protestant type' because it is impossible to narrow it down to any one specific denominational belief. Unlike, say, the false doctrine of Purgatory, which is immediately identified as a Catholic dogma. Various forms and modifications of Rapture theories are followed by the Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, Evangelical, Charismatic, Catholic Apostolic Churches (Irvingite sect), and others independent and hard to categorize. It is said that approximately 50% of Christian Churches teach some form of a Rapture Doctrine.

This false doctrine though veilled in it's tennants, we simply refer to as the 'Rapture Doctrine' or the 'Rapture Theory'. It incorporates many catch phrases such as the: "Rapture of the Saints", "Rapture of the Church", "Catching away of the Saints", "Taking up", "Gathering together in the clouds",....

These are all terms used by the Rapturist (one who believes in a Rapture theory) describing their belief that prior to the prophesied Second Advent of Jesus Christ, a certain group of Christian people will be pulled off the earth to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, depending on which of the many variations of the Rapture theory you go by, those left on the earth will suffer at the hands of an antichrist and his by then corrupted world for a period of 3½ or 7 years (or some say a shorter time). Then, they say, will come the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. This does violence to the Biblical end-time chronology (as well as Scripture) in a most irresponsible way.

The Second Advent of our Messiah Jesus Christ is in fact Biblically sound Doctrine, it will happen! However, the Rapture theory fabricates a pre-Second Advent advent, which is not in the Bible. In essence, what they have done is that they have made three advents out of the true two Advents of Jesus Christ as found in among other places, {Zech 9:9+10}. It is a falsehood created by man and added to God's Word.

The false Rapture doctrines so closely mimic the true plan of God for these end times that it is difficult for those not fully versed in the Scriptures to determine were the truth stops and the crafty lie starts, if the only Bible teaching that someone has received came from a Rapture teacher, does it not stand to reason that their every knowledge of Scripture will turn upon a 'Rapture of the Church' type interpretation? They probably mean well, but their discernment has been compromised by satan's lies slipped in among the truth; Oh how satan loves to blur the lines between the truth and a lie!: "Who changed the truth of God into a lie..." {Rom 1:25}.

The Rapture 'doctors' (those who create, fabricate, and perpetuate the many different Rapture theories) have searched the Bible over and have found a finite number of Scriptures that they were able to pull violently out of context, twist and mould, reshape and join unnaturally one to the other until they have formed a new product, a new doctrine, seemingly supported by Biblical Scripture, but in reality nothing more than satan's 'house of cards,' built on a foundation of sand, a perversion of God's true end-time plan.

In port Glasgow, Scotland, in the Spring of the year A.D. 1830, a bedridden woman had a revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in where she was shown what has become to be known as "The Rapture Of The Church." Prior to this day, the concept of an 'at any moment, fly away doctrine' (Rapture) was unknown. Within the first few paragraphs of her monumental Scripture-riddled statement. Ms. Macdonald makes an ominous statement about her vision, in that at first, at the time of the vision, it felt as though there was "Great darkness" and "Error" about it. This is something they will not teach you from the false pulpits of the beguiled Rapture Churches. Christian beware!

Below, we have quoted from the first few paragraphs of her infamous 'Rapture of the Church' revelation, taken from Ms. Margaret Macdonald's own handwritten account of her 1830 pre-trib revelation, as included in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of port-Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. And also found in The restoration of Apostles and prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. And also found in The incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A:

"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light."

-- Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)

Ms. MacDonald then goes on to outline a series of 'visions' now known as the Rapture Doctrine. The spirit world is very real, but there is the Holy Spirit of God and there are satan's evil spirits, demons and the like. This is why the Bible strictly prohibits the conjuring up of spirits and communicating with the dead (Necromancy). Margaret Macdonald might well have been visited by a spirit on her sick bed that day, an evil spirit!

I Jn 4:1
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV)

Just as the young girl below who though she was visiting with the Mother Mary. Observe below as satan fulfils the Scripture: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" {2 Cor 11:14}:

"He was ugly, horribly ugly. You cannot imagine how ugly, he almost killed me with his gaze, I almost fainted. Then Satan went away and Our Lady came and said to me: "...renew the use of holy water, wear blessed objects and holy objects and put them in your homes." "

-- Mirjana Dragicevic, describing a Mother Mary Apparition
in Medjugorje Yugoslavia, on April 14, 1982.

For whatever reason, it just seems as though evil spirits have an affinity for women and children, evident by the majority of false 'Mother Mary' sightings being by women and children. You should find it no small coincidence that both the Rapture Doctrine and Mother Mary worship were channeled through demons in the same year, A.D. 1830; the Rapture doctrine in the Spring of 1830, and Marian worship on July 18, 1830 (see below).

Review of the first Marian Apparition: July 18,1830
Paris: The Miraculous Medal (1830): 1980 marked the 150th anniversary of the first modern appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary. On July 18th, 1830, to Saint Catherine Laboure, then a young novice of the Sisters of Charity of Saint Vincent De Paul in Paris.

The year 1830 was indeed spiritually significant, however evil, in ways we probably will not ever fully comprehend. For along with the Rapture doctrine that shall take down the Rapturists, and the the Marian worship that is destroying the Catholic faithful, 1830 also witnessed the first publishing of the demonically channeled Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith and the founding of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cult, which among other things, teaches that Jesus Christ and Lucifer were brothers, and that we can all aspire to become gods (eerily reminiscent of New-Age theology).

Another such significant year or time frame revolves around the year 1948 which saw the establishment of the United Nations (1948-1950), the birth of the World Council of Churches (the largest such ecumenical body), the Nation of Israel once again being established (May 14, 1948), the coming to power of the modern Chinese Communist Party by Mao Tse-tung in October 1949, the Dead Sea Scrolls recovered (1947-1956), and 1948 also saw the first of our modern computers - the Super Computer E.N.I.A.C. (first to figure Pie out to 2,037 characters),....