The rapture of the Church

[n2thelight]

1Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

This is the subject written about in 1Thes 4:13-18! I would not have you be ignorant concerning them which are dead from the flesh (asleep).

1Thes 4:14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

God returns with those that are asleep in Him. All who died before the Lord's Day (the millennium) and had faith, witnessed by repentance to Him, will come with Him on the Lord's Day. (Rev. 19:14)

1Thes 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Why? Because those that are asleep they are already with Him! (Ecc 12:7)

1Thes 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Now where in 1Thes 4:16 does it say before the tribulation, during, or after? The only clue regarding the time in this passage is the word "with the trump of God" to know the time one must know the trumps! Notice Paul tells us in 1Cor 15:52 this trump is the "last trump!"

1Cor 15:52 (KJS) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now why do you rapturist not follow the subject?

 

[turnorburn]

Slice it any way you like, but if you think we shall escape those things Prophesied you have another think coming. Question, have you ever known a time in the history of the church that she escaped persecution? Our savior was crucified are we better than he? The church during those dreaded Inquisitions, did they find escape, this doctrine of the rapture is man made. How many times is Jesus coming back? Just tell them when they come and drag you out of bed to be beheaded, "wait" the rapture said? poppy cock! and bizarre :

 

[Vic C.]

Slice it any way you like, but if you think we shall escape those things Prophesied you have another think coming. Question, have you ever known a time in the history of the church that she escaped persecution? Our savior was crucified are we better than he? The church during those dreaded Inquisitions, did they find escape, this doctrine of the rapture is man made. How many times is Jesus coming back? Just tell them when they come and drag you out of bed to be beheaded, "wait" the rapture said? poppy cock! and bizarre :

:wink:

 

[GraceBwithU]

1Thes 4:15 - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Why? Because those that are asleep they are already with Him! (Ecc 12:7)

Ecc 12:7 says nothing about when the spirit will return to be with the Lord. There are many scriptures that speak of the dead sleeping and waiting for the day. Even when Christ rose from the dead.

Matt 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

above you see that the saints were speeping and only rose to show to the Jews that they had crucified the Messiah.

1Thes 4:16 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Paul is describing a resurrection. And the first resurrection is spoken of in Rev 20:4-6.

Rev 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

John 11:11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

John 11:14
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

John 11:23-24
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Lazarus was sleeping. Even Martha knew of the first resurrection. You are correct that 1 Thess. 4 doesn't tell us when all this will happen but rev 20:4-6 does. We sleep in shoal until the first resurrection which is after the tribulation. The unbelievers rise at the second resurrection, which is in Rev 20:12.

As for the rapture of those that are alive, since the dead rise first then we meet Christ after the tribulation at His second coming.

 

[turnorburn]

From the time I read Hal Lindsay's book the late great, I've maintained this was a one time shot, one second coming. But now they have newer books out to prove there are two, "Jesus said one"
and not to believe anything to the contrary :

 

[lecoop]

There is much supposition in these posts. For example, what "resurrection" would Jesus' own resurrection be under? Would we also find His resurrection in Rev 20:5?

Of course we would, even though it took place 2000 years ago. His resurrection was surely NOT part of the second resurrection, as John tells us that the second resurrection is associated with the second death, and is for sinners.

If we want to say that His resurrection was something separate, and not a part of the first resurrection, then we open a precedent for other resurrections not a part of the "first" in Rev 20:5. Therefore, if His was another, separate resurrection, then the church rising from the dead at the rapture could as well be a "separate" resurrection. If Jesus' resurrection was indeed included in Rev.20:5, then the rapture of the church could be included also, and STILL be before the 7 years. Either way you want to make it, using Rev 20:5 for an argument against a pretrib rapture is simply a poor argument.

Where did Jesus "said one?" Again, it is a silly argument, since Jesus died before the Gentile church was started. Did Jesus indeed speak of the Gentile church at all? Yes, but only through revealed knowledge to spirit filled believers long after His death. Sorry, but one must "rightly divide" the word of truth. Who was the audience for the Olivet discourse? It was spoken to Jews. Why would anyone think that Jesus was speaking to the Gentile church that came years later, after God gave the Jews every opportunity to accept Him. NOtice what is written:

Acts 11:19
Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

God raised up Paul to take the gospel to the Gentiles, since the Jews, for the most part, rejected it, and Him.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



Who was the rapture scriptures in reference to? Of course, to the Gentile church. There simply is no scripture against a pre-trib rapture. since that is when God will accomplish it.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

II Coming God made :-D

Rapture Man made :

 

[lecoop]

II Coming God made :-D

Rapture Man made :

Not at all. All these arguments against the rapture are what is man made. You know as well as I do, that the scriptures say that we who are alive and remain will be "caught up*" into the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, the "rapture" is NOT man made, it is God breathed, and as surely as the sun comes up tomorrow, will soon take place. Will Jesus be "coming" for the rapture? Of course, because it is written that we meet Him in the air. Therefore, the rapture will be a "coming." Is it the same "coming" that every eye will see? Of course not, because He will be in the clouds in the air. There are no words that tell us He will be seen at that time. He purposely hides in the clouds.

Paul does not tell us that He descends to the earth at that time, either. No, He takes us to the mansions in the sky. It is written, "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Any beginning reader would tell us that this verse is telling us Jesus will come and get us, not to leave us on earth, but to take us to the place He has prepared for us. When Jesus went, where did He go? Of course, to heaven, to be at the right hand of the Father. But this verse tells us that He also went to prepare mansions for us, while He has been there over this last 2000 years. Many, many saints have been allowed to go to heaven, see the city and the mansions, and return to tell us about them. The question is, do you, the reader, have faith in Jesus' words? Do you really believe what He told us here? If you are born again, Jesus has built you a home in heaven! Believe it!

When He comes to be seen, it will be dark, and He will be seen light lightning in a dark sky. Then His glory will light up the world, and all will know that He is here. This is scripture. We can believe it. Don't be led off into doctrines of devils. Jesus is coming for those that are looking for Him. Are you prepared to meet Him tonight? Be ready!



(* English word "rapture" derived from Latin word rapio (rapere, raptus). 1. Meaning: to carry away, to be caught up, to snatch, seize, pluck, drag)

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

No big thing brother, this an age old argument, the rapture will most definitely happen and that at his second coming. :wink: "age old" meaning when they wrote it up, I could even tell you who started this whole thing and why, but by pm only

 

[lecoop]

It was started as soon as Paul taught it the first time.

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

Why were they shaken in mind? Why were they troubled? They had been told that they were already "in" the "day of the Lord:" that is, the day of the Lord, so they had been led to believe, had already started, and they were right in the middle of it. So why should that trouble them? If Paul had taught them that the "catching up" and gathering together would happen after the 70th week of Daniel, then they had no reason what so ever to be troubled: since they were under intense persecution, things were progressing as Paul (as some think) had taught them. For them, if Paul had so taught, just a few more months, and they would be with Jesus.

But no, that is not at all what Paul wrote. They were indeed troubled, and shaken in mind, because Paul had taught them to be expecting the rapture first. In other words, if they were "in" or inside the 70th week of Daniel, or the "day of the Lord," then they had missed the rapture as taught by Paul, and would indeed have been very shaken of mind and troubled.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

Well of course, everybody knows that the church will be removed, and then in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye we shall all be changed, then comes the end :-D

In His Service,
turnorburn

P.S. Then all eyes will see him, even those that pierced him :

 

[lecoop]

Well of course, everybody knows that the church will be removed, and then in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye we shall all be changed, then comes the end :-D

In His Service,
turnorburn

P.S. Then all eyes will see him, even those that pierced him :

"Then" when? Reference this to the book of Revelation.

"...then comes the end." Define "end?"

Indeed, what does come after the rapture?

Matthew 13:39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 24:6
And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1 Corinthians 1:8
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Hebrews 9:26
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1 Peter 1:13
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1 Peter 4:7
But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

So what "end" will be after the rapture? Only John tells us, in the book of Revelation.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

:D Like this, from the book of Matthew 24:24~31

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[lecoop]

:D Like this, from the book of Matthew 24:24~31

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
...[verses deleted to save space]
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus really does not tell us here what happens after his coming; only what happens with, or at the same time as, His coming. We find this same coming in Revelation 19:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Where is the rapture here at His coming? Sorry, but it is just not here. The elect are refefring to the Jews that are all brought back to Jerusalem. How do we know this? Two ways. First, the marriage supper of the lamb, has already taken place in heaven.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


The argument that the time has come, but the place will be earth, just won't stand. Notice that in verse 9, John is already at the marriage supper. This means that the marriage has already finished. It took place in heaven. The marriage supper will also be in heaven. The church won't miss it, because they are already there, having been raptured, and taken to their mansions, about 7 years before this event.

Where in Revelation did the rapture take place? John did not see the rapture, but saw the church after the rapture. Note what Matthew said here:

matt 27:51-52
...the earth did quake, ...And the graves were opened.

Why did the graves open? Because there was a resurrection! matthew goes on to say, "many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection." This sets a precedent that resurrections cause earthquakes! matthew ties together the quake and the opening of the graves. So where do we find a great earthquake in Revelation?

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake....


Now notice what John saw immediately following this earthquake:

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This great crowd is the church, having just been raptured, and those dead in Christ having risen from the dead.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

Where is the rapture here at His coming? Sorry, but it is just not here. The elect are refefring to the Jews that are all brought back to Jerusalem. How do we know this? Two ways. First, the marriage supper of the lamb, has already taken place in heaven.

I know its not here, that's what I've been trying to tell you. "its man made"

Rapture = man made 8-)

II Coming = God made :D

 

[lecoop]

Where is the rapture here at His coming? Sorry, but it is just not here. The elect are refefring to the Jews that are all brought back to Jerusalem. How do we know this? Two ways. First, the marriage supper of the lamb, has already taken place in heaven.

I know its not here, that's what I've been trying to tell you. "its man made"

Rapture = man made 8-)

II Coming = God made :D

Rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We see that the rapture is the word of God. To deny the rapture is to deny God's words: not a wise thing to do. Also, please not that the word "coming" is not here.

Rapture: God breathed.

Rapture denial: foolishness of man.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

That's a wee bit strong don't you think, deny mans version of a rapture and my salvation is in danger? Perhaps changing the subject would help, if you believe your salvation depends on that doctrine to make it sure, then that's exactly what we should do, change the subject. But seeing this isn't my thread perhaps I should just bow out gracefully.. :

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[lecoop]

That's a wee bit strong don't you think, deny mans version of a rapture and my salvation is in danger? Perhaps changing the subject would help, if you believe your salvation depends on that doctrine to make it sure, then that's exactly what we should do, change the subject. But seeing this isn't my thread perhaps I should just bow out gracefully.. :

In His Service,
turnorburn

No, I don't think that was any stronger that what you wrote. The rapture, or catching away, is written in His word, just as clearly as salvation is. The same man that wrote:

"that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (1 Cor 15:3 & 4) and

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins" (Col 1:14)

Also wrote the scripture, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."

We call this "catching away," the rapture of the church. To deny this is to deny His word. You perhaps was only questioning the timing of this event, and not the actual event, but if so, it was hard to see, since you wrote "Rapture: man made."

Neither do I deny the second coming, since we have many scriptures telling us that He is coming back to earth to set up His kingdom. It will happen as surely as the sun comes up tomorrow: in fact, it is MORE sure than that!

Please tell me where you thought I said that your salvation was in danger? I don't think I said such a thing.

Coop

 

[turnorburn]

:-D Lets try this Coop, Zechariah


Chapter 14

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Ouch! that fits the description of an atomic blast or the result of a new heaven and a new earth.
II Peter 3:8~13

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

"The day of the Lord"

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[lecoop]

Those scriptures are, indeed, about the day of the Lord. When, though, does this day start?

If we compare Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 with Revelation, we will know the answer:

Isa. 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake...15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand

Please note that Isaiah prophecies that the day of the Lord will include people going into the caves and holes of the rocks to kind from the Glory of God, when He causes a great earthquake. We see this fulfilled to the letter, when the 6th seal is broken: there is a great earthquake, and the people go into the caves of mountians to hide from the face of God. But notice verse 17: it is not just His wrath, but "the day of His wrath..." This is speaking of the coming of the day of the Lord: its beginning.

Joel 2
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Again we see that the 6th seal is the exact fulfillment of this prophecy of Joel. Note also that Joel adds, these signs will precede the start of the day of the Lord. What is the next real-time event in Revelation after this? Since this is the 6th seal, of course it will be the 7th seal. Therefore, John is telling us that the "day of the Lord" will begin with the 7th seal. We could say that the 7th seal "marks" the beginning of the day of the Lord and the beginning of the 70th week. In the same way, the 7th trumpet "marks" the middle of the 70th week, and the 7th vial "marks" the end of the 70th week. The day of the Lord continues on, at least to the end of the battle of Armagedden.

We are, at present, waiting for the events of the 6th seal. The first five seals are in our history. Seal one was the church, sent out into the world to make disciples of all nations. Seals two through four were Satan's febble attemt to stop the church and the advance of the gospel. Seal five are the martyrs of the church age, starting with James and Stephen.

However, since this thread is about the rapture, if we look closely, we see an event that must have happened at the sixth seal, but John sees the "after effects" of it.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

It is the raptured church, just having arrived in heaven. John did not see the rapture, but saw the church just after the rapture.

For those that cannot believe this scenario, you must then explain how the church gets to heaven just before Jesus' return on the white horse, for the marriage and marriage supper of the lamb. Next, you then must explain who will be at the sheep and goat judgement, and even why it will take place. If the rapture takes place at Jesus coming, then the separation of the seep and goats will have just been accomplished! Who then, are the sheep? Who then, will populate the millennial kingdom? Sorry, but the rapture at the time Jesus descends on the white horse, just won't work.

Coop