The rapture of the Church

[n2thelight]

The Rapture theories all unanimously state that Christ shall remove certain Christians from the earth, and then at a later time He will come back and have His Second Advent and remove everyone else. They have fabricated a two-stage Second Advent!

When Jesus Christ does return at His Second Advent, all people living on the planet shall be changed into their spiritual body at the very same time, 'saint' and 'sinner' alike: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" {1st Cor 15:52} and the millennium period (the thousand years of Revelation 20:3-7 & Ezek chapter 38 onward) shall commence. After that comes Judgment day {Rev 20:12-13} and the casting into the Lake of Fire (Hell) of the evil ones {Rev 20:14-15}, and the eternal Heaven age for the overcomers {Rev 21:1-4}.

1 Cor 15:51-52 (the Second Advent of Jesus Christ)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (KJV)

You can see from the above Scripture that there is no secret Rapture of selected Christians, hence the use of the word "all" in verse 51. Those that sleep (dead) are raised first because it already had happened to them (raised to their spiritual body at the moment of their death, but they are yet to be judged) and we ALL who are alive at His coming are changed to our spiritual body at the return of Jesus Christ at His prophesied Second Advent.

You will also notice from verse 52 above that this event happens at the LAST TRUMP. There are only Seven Trumps {Rev 8:7-11:19}; the antichrist comes at the SIXTH Trump, and the true Jesus Christ returns at the SEVENTH Trump - the last Trump. We shall cover this verse more in depth later in this study, and we shall show that the Rapturist will be worshipping the great deceiver antichrist at the Sixth trump and sadly will be quite surprised when the True Christ returns at the Seventh Trump - to say the least! "Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not." {Luke 12:40}.

1Thes 5:1-4
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. (KJV)

It says that that day won't overtake us as a thief in the night (unexpectedly), it does NOT say that that day will not overtake us at all! Why would God warn us, whom "are not in darkness" and whom "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night" to be careful of Christ's return if we "brethren" are to already have been Raptured out before it happened? And if we are gone prior to the Second Advent then how could it be possible "that that day should overtake you as a thief"??? This Scripture is not written to un-saved sinners or to satan worshippers, or to Muslims, or to Hindus..., it is written to God's servants, brethren of Apostle Paul in Christianity. Why would God warn us if we weren't going to be here for the event?!? He would not!

The answer is because nobody is being Raptured out of anywhere! But many will be deceived into worshipping the false christ (antichrist - satan) because they haven't been taught that satan comes first claiming to the true Jesus Christ prior to the Second Advent. When satan comes here as the false messiah the Rapturist will have been conditioned to run up to him with open arms, for now, they will think, safety and salvation are here, it is their day for rewards and peace - or is it? The Scripture says: "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape" (verse 3 above). That is why God warned us.

They (those deceived) will even unknowingly deliver up their unbeliever relatives and people that will deny this false christ antichrist to satan for conversion, albeit they do so in ignorance; for they will think that they are interceding for them to the true Jesus: "And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death" {Luke 21:16}. This is the Great Tribulation spoken of, and that is where their false Rapture doctrines shall lead them. But the Rapturists aren't the only ones that the antichrist will deceive, it is written that he (satan - antichrist) "deceiveth the whole world" {Rev 12:9}.

But where would we ourselves be today if John the Baptist was Raptured out before he suffered to preach Baptism and pave the way for the Messiah Jesus Christ, even baptizing Him? What if Apostle Paul wanted to be 'gathered in the sky' before he was to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles? And St. John, imagine if he insisted on partaking in a "catching away of the Saints" before he was arrested and imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos? Who would have written the book of Revelation - an unsaved sinner? A heathen? - I should think not! You get the idea; who will do God's work on the earth in the end times if all the believers are floating around on clouds?

There will be no Rapture, God's servants shall serve Him on this earth during the time of the antichrist. As for me, even if there was a Rapture, I wouldn't go, I would stand and fight for my Lord, God willing and with His grace of course. The Disciples all left Christ when He was betrayed and arrested in the Garden of Geth-sem'-a-ne. Will God's servants once again desert? I pray not, for Christ never deserted us, and God shall never leave nor forsake us.

God has always used man to help mankind, and when He did He strengthened them. God didn't need little David to slay Goliath (a giant like those we spoke about earlier from the Fallen Angels impregnating flesh women), but to His glory He used him. God didn't need Moses to lead His children out of captivity, but He used him, God didn't need Debra to defeat Sisera, but He used her. It's just the way God does things, he wants us to help each other, He wants us to care. But God is in control of all things, he always has been, he always will be. To Him we say: "Thy will be done" {Mat 6:10}!

 

[turnorburn]

I think the Lord loves using us just to demonstrate his limitless love. We appear weak
and puny so the world laughs but in the end it is we that have the last laugh. Sampson a 95 Lb weakling, Moses a cowardly murderer, in mans eyes, the Egyptians to be exact, he uses me, a once 175 Lb buff laborer, now reduced to a 125 Lb shell that preaches Christ freely from a hospital bed during surgery. The world laughs at just about everything he stands for, but when he stands beside us in all his glory he silences their jeers. He uses the baser things in life to confound the wise, and take them in their own deceits. Give God the glory! that piece about Sampson as my personal feeling..

In His Service,
turnorburn

 

[GraceBwithU]

Excellent post onelove,

The answer is because nobody is being Raptured out of anywhere! But many will be deceived into worshipping the false christ (antichrist - satan) because they haven't been taught that satan comes first claiming to the true Jesus Christ prior to the Second Advent. When satan comes here as the false messiah the Rapturist will have been conditioned to run up to him with open arms, for now, they will think, safety and salvation are here, it is their day for rewards and peace - or is it? The Scripture says: "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape" (verse 3 above). That is why God warned us.

They (those deceived) will even unknowingly deliver up their unbeliever relatives and people that will deny this false christ antichrist to satan for conversion, albeit they do so in ignorance; for they will think that they are interceding for them to the true Jesus:

Yes this is why Jesus Has warned us. Sometimes when I tell a pre-trib Rapturist the truth they respond by what does it matter, "I'm just going to be looking for Jesus." The points you have made here is what I tell them. It really does matter. The pre-trib Rapturist will be easily deceived.
We will need to be the light in the darkness of those days. There are so many verses that warn us of these days. Jesus warned us so we could prepare ourselves.

Matt 24:8-13
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
KJV

Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,'...

Jesus tells us over and over what we will see. He warns us of what we will face.

A soldier that is training in boot camp that knows he will be going to Irag as soon as He finishes his training will prepare himself much better than the soldier that has joined during peace time and is there mainly for the education. It does matter what you believe about the Rapture. We will be here as His soldiers.

Eph 6:10-12
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
KJV
Amen

 

[lecoop]

Earth to Coop earth to Coop, come in Coop, come in, your signal is fading, I missed that, please repeat, what was that Coop, you saw "What"! Earth to Coop, oh no it looks like we lost him!

Awe nuts! too late :

No, it's never too late to learn the truth!

Just in case you are wondering (I doubt seriously that you are) I ask if you could pinpoint where in John's timeline it was when He saw the great crowd without number. He saw this great crowd, before the 70th week ever starts. We know that that time of "great tribulation" come AFTER the abomination event at the midpoint of the 70th week. That is about 3 1/2 years AFTER the start of the week. So where is the midpoint of the week, in Revelation? It is marked by the sounding of the 7th trumpet. We see proof of this by the remnant fleeing (Just as Jesus told those in Judea when they see the abomination) in Chapter 12:6 and I think 14.

Therefore, you must ask yourself (if you really want to learn), how could John have seen this great crowd in heaven that came out of this time over 3 1/2 years into the future from where John was in his timeline? Answer: John was not seeing people from the 70th week at all, either the first half or the second half! This crowd was not in any way "out of" the 70th week at all.

When Jesus said "then shall be great tribulation," He was NOT putting a "title" on the second half of the 70th week. I know, many people think he did, and so they call it "the great tribulation." Did you not notice that Jesus had said to one of the churches (existing at the time Revelation was written) that if they did not repent, He would cast them into "great tribulation?" He did NOT mean that HE would keep them all alive for the next 2000 years, so they could enter that time after the abomination! No, what He meant was that God can create "great tribulation" at any time. Therefore, when you see the words, "great tribulation" don't think that it automatically means that time after the abomination. It doesn't.

What then, was John meaning, when he wrote, "These are they which came out of great tribulation...?" It is simple: all John is saying is that at the time of the rapture, there will be great tribulation in many countries of the world. These people are not headless - they did NOT die during the reign of terror of the beast. They never saw the beast at all, because they were translated into heaven before the beast came on the scene.

If we will just read what is written, without any preconceived ideas, or without preconceived glasses, we see that John wrote in a very chronological way, especially the first 11 chapters. We see the 70th week and day of the Lord starting with the 7th seal, the midpoint "marked" by the 7th trumpet, and the end of the week marked by the 7th vial.

We then know that the first seals are not in any way associated with the 70th week: they were broken as soon as Jesus ascended to heaven.

It was not me that faded out! Did you forget your delema?

And you still have not solved the delema you have caused by the rapture at Jesus' descent. If you are right (you are not however) who will be the sheep at the sheep and goat judgement? In your scenario, all the sheep received their resurrection bodies! Next, who in their natural bodies will populate the 1000 year reign of christ, to have kids? In your scenario, all the righteous will have been changed - so no kids. You painted yourself into a corner, so to speak.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Quite frankly it is you that is adding to the number. are you just not reading what I say. You are the one that brought up Jesus and the saints that rose. Look back.
First of all Jesus' resurrection was for victory over sin. I had nothing to do with the resurrection in rev. at the Second coming. Rev was written in 95 A.D. John was seeing future events. Jesus was long gone.

Yes, I did bring it up. You want to ignore His resurrection, and say that it is in no way related to what John wrote. Yet He was the very first to receive a resurrection body. You cannot ignore His resurrection and keep your end time doctrine straight. Neither can you ignore those that rose from their graves when Jesus died.

Also the saints that slept and arose.

Matt 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

Notice it says they went in to the holy city and were seen by many. It doesn't say they went with Jesus. They could have even died again the same as Lazarus. The Bible really doesn't say.

I plainly stated that these resurrections had nothing to do with the mass resurrection of His church at His second coming. If you are going to debate at least don't twist what I have said...It makes you look foolish.

Yes, you did plainly state your opinion. You still believe that this "mass resurrection" took place somewhere in Rev. 20. I don't believe I twisted what you said. You are simple mistaken. You seem to believe that these people seen on the thrones came straight from the grave to sitting on a throne in one moment of time. That makes you look foolish, not me.

I'm sure you belief with all your heart about the pre-trib rapture. I did. But sorry to say it is 100% unbiblical.

You say it is unbliblical, only because you read with preconceived glasses. When you see "elect" you think "church." There are other possibilities that you ignore. When you read about people on thrones, you want to make them headless. They are not. You want to see them having been resurrected at that moment that they are seen. John is not saying that at all. Yes, I do believe the rapture will come before the 70th week. We have NO appointment with His wrath! That's a pretty simple concept.

Now instead of misquoting me and being wierd. Could you please give me a scripture that plainly says that Christ is going to come three times. Because that is what pre-tribers believe. That Christ is cgoing to come for His church and secretly gather millions of people away before the tribulation and no one will notice. Wow!

He already came once. When we meet Him in the air, will He have to come? Of course. It is written that He descends from heaven. He therefore comes to us, as we come to Him in the air. Then Revelation 19 shows a coming also, on the white horse. Count them up. How many do you count?

1 TH 5:2-6
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
KJV

He will come as a “thief in the nightâ€Â, without warning to the lost. We should “not sleep…watch and be soberâ€Â.(why? because we are still here.) If the gathering up of his elect was done at anytime before His Second Coming, His Second Coming would not be a surprise. People disappearing from cars, a church pew, even unborn children from wombs is not going to be something that will be secret and unnoticed. A thief does not call you on the phone and warn you that he will be breaking into your house soon. :D

When Jesus comes to get us, no one will know exactly when. It will be a sudden shock to the whole world, when perhaps 2 or 3 billion people disappear. We are to be expecting Him to come, anticipating that trumpet call, as it is written, "looking for that blessed hope." For those looking for Him, it will be an awesome time. But for those left, it will be "sudden destruction." They will be immediately in the 70th week of Daniel, and the Day of the Lord. It will come on them as a thief, suddenly and without them being aware that one moment things are fine, but the next, terror. Be we of the Light, are not in darkness, and this day won't overtake us as a thief, because we are expecting His coming at any moment - at least many are. Some have convinced themselves that He is not coming first, and they may be left behind - simply because they are not looking for that blessed hope. In this, I hope I am mistaken.

Then again, after the 7 years, He will come again. And again, it will be like a thief, and no one will know the hour or the day. It could be two days after the 7th vial, or it could be two weeks, or longer. Those alive then, will not know. Those that know, will be looking for the signs in the sun and moon, and again will be expecting Him. The others will again be caught by surprise. He will send out His angels as He is descending on the white horse, and the angels will do two things: one, gather together His elect, and second, perform the parable of the tares: one taken and one left. Lawless people will be thinking all is well one moment, and the next, an angel will snatch their spirit right out of their body, the body will fall dead, food for the buzzards, and they will be cast right into hell! Then Jesus will descend right in time for the battle of Armageddon.

Matt 24:21-22
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Why does Jesus tell us this. He is telling us that for the sake of the elect the great tribulation will be shortened. He shortens it for our sake because we are here!

This is written for those that miss the rapture, and those that turn to God during the 70th week. The elect here is referring to the remnant Jews.

Coop

 

[Marturion]

This is written for those that miss the rapture, and those that turn to God during the 70th week. The elect here is referring to the remnant Jews.

Coop

There are no second chances! We are taken to be with the Lord at THE LAST TRUMPET(1Co15:52). Those who are not taken to be with the Lord at the last trump are cast in the lake of fire. Rev10:6 tells us at the last trump there will "be time no longer" In other words its over its finished no second chances.If time is over then there can't be seven years or a 1000 years.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Lecoop,

This is written for those that miss the rapture, and those that turn to God during the 70th week. The elect here is referring to the remnant Jews.

By the way the elect is not just the remnant of the Jews. Sounds like there is another subject that you need to study.

It's obvious that you have told yourself these twisted interpretations of the scripture long enough that you believe it along with the other Rapturist. Most of which have never studied scripture.

Hitler once said, ‘If you tell a lie loud enough and long enough, people will to believe it’. Case in point - The Pre-Tribulation Rapture!

Jesus rose form the dead 2000 years ago the resurrection of the dead in Christ is going to be at the second coming. the Rapturist can twist and shout their false doctrine as loud as they want, but it will not make what is totally unbiblical happen.

The only way the pre-tribers can explain their belief is to preach things like. Oh Christ is coming twice at is second coming first for the church then to the earth. And when he comes for the church it will be in secret. No one will notice all the people missing or they will and those left get a second chance. Sorry there will be no second chances.

In order to reconcile “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God†with the secret rapture, you would have to ‘believe in a God with laryngitis, a dumb archangel and a mute trumpet’

Ok for now let's forget about the resurrection since you have obviously convense yourself that it is also in multiple parts. no scripture to back that but you believe it anyway.

Give me one scripture that plainly says Jesus is going to Rapture the church before the tribulation.

You have already said that the verses in !thes doesn't say when. what scripture does?

 

[lecoop]

This is written for those that miss the rapture, and those that turn to God during the 70th week. The elect here is referring to the remnant Jews.

Coop

There are no second chances! We are taken to be with the Lord at THE LAST TRUMPET(1Co15:52). Those who are not taken to be with the Lord at the last trump are cast in the lake of fire. Rev10:6 tells us at the last trump there will "be time no longer" In other words its over its finished no second chances.If time is over then there can't be seven years or a 1000 years.

Sorry, but God is a God of many chances! how many of us accepted God at His first Beckoning? I imagine is was very few. Yes, it is written that it is "at the last trump." Further, we see "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven ... with the trump of God. It is Jesus Himself sounding this trumpet. Many have erroniously thought that this was referring to the 7 trumpets of Revelation, in particular, the 7th one. That is error, since this is the trump of God, and since this one will be sounded at least 3 1/2 years before the 7th trumpet will be sounded.

You too, have painted yourself into a corner, so to speak. If everyone that is not "taken" to be with the Lord, is cast into the fire, then you have eliminated anyone from entering the millennial reign of Christ, in a natural, able to give birth, body. You have also elimnated to goats from the sheep and goat judgement. Good luck with that.

Question, if you are correct in your interpretation of "time no longer" why is it that God continued to use "time" words all the way to at least Revelation 20? He used 1260 days, He used 42 months, He used time, times, and half of time. Perhaps you should read this in another translation, which renders it, "there shall be no more delay in time."

Coop

 

[lecoop]

There is a 130 year old false doctrine that has grown by leaps and bounds in the the last 30 or so years within the various 'Protestant type' denominations of Christianity. And that is known as "The Rapture Of The Church." I refer to the churches that take part in it as 'Protestant type' because it is impossible to narrow it down to any one specific denominational belief. Unlike, say, the false doctrine of Purgatory, which is immediately identified as a Catholic dogma. Various forms and modifications of Rapture theories are followed by the Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist, Evangelical, Charismatic, Catholic Apostolic Churches (Irvingite sect), and others independent and hard to categorize. It is said that approximately 50% of Christian Churches teach some form of a Rapture Doctrine.

This false doctrine though veilled in it's tennants, we simply refer to as the 'Rapture Doctrine' or the 'Rapture Theory'. It incorporates many catch phrases such as the: "Rapture of the Saints", "Rapture of the Church", "Catching away of the Saints", "Taking up", "Gathering together in the clouds",....

These are all terms used by the Rapturist (one who believes in a Rapture theory) describing their belief that prior to the prophesied Second Advent of Jesus Christ, a certain group of Christian people will be pulled off the earth to meet the Lord in the sky. Then, depending on which of the many variations of the Rapture theory you go by, those left on the earth will suffer at the hands of an antichrist and his by then corrupted world for a period of 3½ or 7 years (or some say a shorter time). Then, they say, will come the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. This does violence to the Biblical end-time chronology (as well as Scripture) in a most irresponsible way.

The Second Advent of our Messiah Jesus Christ is in fact Biblically sound Doctrine, it will happen! However, the Rapture theory fabricates a pre-Second Advent advent, which is not in the Bible. In essence, what they have done is that they have made three advents out of the true two Advents of Jesus Christ as found in among other places, {Zech 9:9+10}. It is a falsehood created by man and added to God's Word.

The false Rapture doctrines so closely mimic the true plan of God for these end times that it is difficult for those not fully versed in the Scriptures to determine were the truth stops and the crafty lie starts, if the only Bible teaching that someone has received came from a Rapture teacher, does it not stand to reason that their every knowledge of Scripture will turn upon a 'Rapture of the Church' type interpretation? They probably mean well, but their discernment has been compromised by satan's lies slipped in among the truth; Oh how satan loves to blur the lines between the truth and a lie!: "Who changed the truth of God into a lie..." {Rom 1:25}.

The Rapture 'doctors' (those who create, fabricate, and perpetuate the many different Rapture theories) have searched the Bible over and have found a finite number of Scriptures that they were able to pull violently out of context, twist and mould, reshape and join unnaturally one to the other until they have formed a new product, a new doctrine, seemingly supported by Biblical Scripture, but in reality nothing more than satan's 'house of cards,' built on a foundation of sand, a perversion of God's true end-time plan.

In port Glasgow, Scotland, in the Spring of the year A.D. 1830, a bedridden woman had a revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in where she was shown what has become to be known as "The Rapture Of The Church." Prior to this day, the concept of an 'at any moment, fly away doctrine' (Rapture) was unknown. Within the first few paragraphs of her monumental Scripture-riddled statement. Ms. Macdonald makes an ominous statement about her vision, in that at first, at the time of the vision, it felt as though there was "Great darkness" and "Error" about it. This is something they will not teach you from the false pulpits of the beguiled Rapture Churches. Christian beware!

Below, we have quoted from the first few paragraphs of her infamous 'Rapture of the Church' revelation, taken from Ms. Margaret Macdonald's own handwritten account of her 1830 pre-trib revelation, as included in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of port-Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. And also found in The restoration of Apostles and prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. And also found in The incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A:

"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light."

-- Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)

Ms. MacDonald then goes on to outline a series of 'visions' now known as the Rapture Doctrine. The spirit world is very real, but there is the Holy Spirit of God and there are satan's evil spirits, demons and the like. This is why the Bible strictly prohibits the conjuring up of spirits and communicating with the dead (Necromancy). Margaret Macdonald might well have been visited by a spirit on her sick bed that day, an evil spirit!

I Jn 4:1
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (KJV)

Just as the young girl below who though she was visiting with the Mother Mary. Observe below as satan fulfils the Scripture: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" {2 Cor 11:14}:

"He was ugly, horribly ugly. You cannot imagine how ugly, he almost killed me with his gaze, I almost fainted. Then Satan went away and Our Lady came and said to me: "...renew the use of holy water, wear blessed objects and holy objects and put them in your homes." "

-- Mirjana Dragicevic, describing a Mother Mary Apparition
in Medjugorje Yugoslavia, on April 14, 1982.

For whatever reason, it just seems as though evil spirits have an affinity for women and children, evident by the majority of false 'Mother Mary' sightings being by women and children. You should find it no small coincidence that both the Rapture Doctrine and Mother Mary worship were channeled through demons in the same year, A.D. 1830; the Rapture doctrine in the Spring of 1830, and Marian worship on July 18, 1830 (see below).

Review of the first Marian Apparition: July 18,1830
Paris: The Miraculous Medal (1830): 1980 marked the 150th anniversary of the first modern appearances of the Blessed Virgin Mary. On July 18th, 1830, to Saint Catherine Laboure, then a young novice of the Sisters of Charity of Saint Vincent De Paul in Paris.

The year 1830 was indeed spiritually significant, however evil, in ways we probably will not ever fully comprehend. For along with the Rapture doctrine that shall take down the Rapturists, and the the Marian worship that is destroying the Catholic faithful, 1830 also witnessed the first publishing of the demonically channeled Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith and the founding of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cult, which among other things, teaches that Jesus Christ and Lucifer were brothers, and that we can all aspire to become gods (eerily reminiscent of New-Age theology).

Another such significant year or time frame revolves around the year 1948 which saw the establishment of the United Nations (1948-1950), the birth of the World Council of Churches (the largest such ecumenical body), the Nation of Israel once again being established (May 14, 1948), the coming to power of the modern Chinese Communist Party by Mao Tse-tung in October 1949, the Dead Sea Scrolls recovered (1947-1956), and 1948 also saw the first of our modern computers - the Super Computer E.N.I.A.C. (first to figure Pie out to 2,037 characters),....

I hope I get to see you explain your theory to Paul.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

This is written for those that miss the rapture, and those that turn to God during the 70th week. The elect here is referring to the remnant Jews.
Coop

There are no second chances! We are taken to be with the Lord at THE LAST TRUMPET(1Co15:52). Those who are not taken to be with the Lord at the last trump are cast in the lake of fire. Rev10:6 tells us at the last trump there will "be time no longer" In other words its over its finished no second chances.If time is over then there can't be seven years or a 1000 years.

I like it when this "last trump" comes up and references Revelation's angelic trump; it give me a reason to post this excellent information. You see, the Jews believed it is GOD who will be blowing the Last Trump (not to be confused with God's Great Trump). They are looking to the time when God reunites them with their deceased loved ones.

Many Christians who teach or study eschatology gloss over or disregard Jewish eschatology for whatever reason. Maybe it's ignorance of Jewish feast and festivals and how they tie into God's End Times plan; maybe it's because they think Jewish eschatology has nothing to do whatsoever with Christian eschatology. Wow, I surely hope not, since Jesus, Paul and most the others were... Jewish! Anyway,

...here you go!

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

The Last Trump

"We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump. In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year. In Judaism, there are three trumpets (shofarim) that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each one of these trumpets indicates a specific day in the Jewish year. The first trump is blown on the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) (Exodus [Shemot] 19:19). It proclaimed that G-d had betrothed Himself to Israel.

The last trump is synonymous with Rosh HaShanah, according to Theodore Gaster in his book, Festivals of the Jewish Year, in his chapter on Rosh HaShanah. Herman Kieval also states the same thing in his book, The High Holy Days (Volume I, Rosh HaShanah, Chapter 5, Footnote 11), in the chapter on the shofar.

The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the return of the Messiah Yeshua back to earth (Matthew [Mattityahu] 24:31)."

(Hebraic Heritage Ministries, http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/)

(Lev 23:24 KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

(Num 29:1 KJV) And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

According to Num 10:10, Israel was to blow a trumpet at the beginning of each month. Since the Mosaic festival year was seven months long, the seventh month (Tishri) was the last month for a festival trumpet. This day, the first day of Tishri, which was the start of the Jewish civil year, was known as Rosh haShanah (the Feast of Trumpets or the Day of Trumpets). "The last month in the seven months' series was always sounded on this New Moon Day. This made it the final trumpets' day." (Ernest L. Martin, The Star that Astonished the World, (c)1996, pg 95)

Martin further signifies this day by relying on the work of Theodor Gaster and his book titled "Festivals of the Jewish Year." It is stated that early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. More than our modern versions of the holiday, it was instead a day that was symbolic of the time "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year." Martin also quotes Gaster in saying that this was "the time that became a symbol of the Last Trump." (Martin, pg 96)

(1 Cor 15:52 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It is quite possible that Paul, being Jewish himself and surely knowledgeable of the Jewish feasts and customs, was making a symbolic reference to this time of year -- the Day of Trumpets. "The 'Last Trump' of the early Jews was when the dead were remembered. And to Paul the 'Last Trump' was the time for Jesus' second advent and the resurrection of the dead." (Martin, pg 96)

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

 

[GraceBwithU]

Notice the phrase, "the marriage of the Lamb is come..." This is saying that it is about to start - right then! Not after a horse ride. Now notice the highlighted phrase of verse 9. This is telling us that the marriage is over, and it is now time for the marriage supper. If the church was still on earth, they would miss these events, for they surely take place in heaven.

They surely take place in heaven but not until Christ gathers the bride. If the church had been there for 7 years already, why wait until Christ is about to return to earth?

Rev 19:7-9
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
KJV

John is seeing heaven proclaiming that the time has come for Christ to gather His bride from the earth for they have proven themselves worthy. This actually further supports the post-trib gathering of the elect, (church, bride). The next thing that happens is His second coming. And as you put it, “after a horse ride†is not a very respectful way of describing the second coming of Christ.

Rev 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

:wink:

 

[lecoop]

Notice the phrase, "the marriage of the Lamb is come..." This is saying that it is about to start - right then! Not after a horse ride. Now notice the highlighted phrase of verse 9. This is telling us that the marriage is over, and it is now time for the marriage supper. If the church was still on earth, they would miss these events, for they surely take place in heaven.

They surely take place in heaven but not until Christ gathers the bride. If the church had been there for 7 years already, why wait until Christ is about to return to earth?

Rev 19:7-9
Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
KJV

John is seeing heaven proclaiming that the time has come for Christ to gather His bride from the earth for they have proven themselves worthy. This actually further supports the post-trib gathering of the elect, (church, bride). The next thing that happens is His second coming. And as you put it, “after a horse ride†is not a very respectful way of describing the second coming of Christ.

Rev 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

:wink:

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. If the marriage was after, then John would have seen it after. God has shown John things is a very chronological manner. I don't think God would change here.

Next, what does John see after Jesus descends? He rides right into the battle of Armageddon!

Why would God wait? I don't think He wants to have the marriage supper while the 70th week is going on. These are VERY important events, as seen by the half hour of silence at the 7th seal. I see no problem in waiting for seven years for these events. You want to rearrange God's timing. For me, it just does not work.

Next, By the time John gets to the marriage supper, the marriage is over and done with!

Coop

Coop

 

[GraceBwithU]

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. If the marriage was after, then John would have seen it after. God has shown John things is a very chronological manner. I don't think God would change here.

Actually you are 100% incorrect about the chronological order of Revelations. Anyone that has seriously studied Revelations knows that much is repeated with different details. OOps there goes your lack of biblical knowledge again. You should learn how to study before you study. and not just by what Hollywood tells you and Tim of the left behind series...lol.

The vision of armageddon is mentioned at least 3 different times. Which time did it happen? If you know how to interpret scriptures you can answer this. But you would still see the other times it is mentioned. Nope...sorry Revelations is not in chronological order.

Anyway you seem to never read what I post. John is saying the time has come for the marriage, go get the bride. Your right it is happenning. Gathering His church is in a twinkling of an eye remember.

I will post again in a bit....this time please read the post before you comment.

 

[lecoop]

I always read the posts. I like fiction! : -))

much is repeated with different details...

Please, by all means, point out something repeated.

There is an axiom about Revelation:

Any theory that attempts to rearrange the God given chronology of Revelation is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.

I know that some people think John back peddles, goes over the same things again and again, but it is simply not true. John wrote in the same order that the visions were given to Him. Therefore, the chronology is God given. If someone thinks these events are not in proper order, by time, they are simply mistaken. John's chronolgy is easy to follow up to chapter 11. Then it takes a bit more research.

Another Axiom:
No trumpet can be sounded until all seven of the seals are broken. No vial can be poured out, until all seven of the trumpets are sounded.

If you think there are things out of order, please, by all means, let's discuss them.

The battle of Armageddon will take place when Jesus descends on the white horse. This will occur after the 70th week is finished.

Coop

 

[Marturion]

The Lord certainly has promised that He would return for us at the last trumpet and as Scripture proves the last trumpet comes after the tribulation not before.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice the order we are given, the trib comes before the elect are gathered. Let's take a look at a few more things that tell us the trib comes before we are taken to be with the Lord.

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


1. 1Co15:52 states that the Church is taken to be with the Lord at the Last Trumpet, and not before.
2. Our trumpet is the LAST trumpet. As a result, it would have to include the seven trumpets in Revelation, or it would not be the Last Trumpet.
3. Rev 10:6 states that at the 7th trumpet, there is "no more time," KJV.
4. Rev 10:7, states that at the 7th trumpet, "the mystery of God is finished."
5. Rev 11: 15, states that at the 7th trumpet (which is the last), God reigns "for ever and ever."
6. 2Th 1:7-10 says that the wicked have their final judgment on the same day that the Lord comes for the saints.

All the above verses show that the. pretrib view is not a scripturally viable option. If we are taken to be with the Lord at the Last Trumpet, and there is no more time at the last Trumpet, then there isn't time for a 7 year trib after Jesus returns for the saints. If there is no more time, then when the last trumpet blows, we will instantly be in the eternal kingdom of God.

Some theologians declare that the Last Trumpet of 1Co15:52 does not include the trumpets of Revelation. Not only is there no Scripture for that theory, but it goes directly against 1Co15:52 itself. If there were any more trumpets after the Last Trumpet of 1Co15:52, then the Last Trumpet of 1Co15:52 couldn't be the Last Trumpet, could it?


As for wrath yes it is reserved for the unsaved, but God's wrath and tribulation are different things. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. As this verse clearly shows John was already in tribulation on the island of Ptamos, so we can see that Christians can suffer tribulation.

Now some will say in my Bible it says "delay no more" not "time no more" so let's take a look and see if time or delay is a better translation.
Rev 10:6 And2532 swore3660 by1722 him that liveth2198 forever and ever,1519, 165, 165 who3739 created2936 heaven,3772 and2532 the things3588 that therein1722, 846 are, and2532 the3588 earth,1093 and2532 the things3588 that therein1722, 846
are, and2532 the3588 sea,2281 and2532 the things3588 which are therein,1722, 846 that3754 there should be2071 time5550 no3756 longer:2089

From Strong's G5550 chronos khron'-os Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.

JMHO but the newer translations that use delay or in error. If memory serves me correctly (it’s been years since I actually counted so I don’t remember the exact number,) the word chronos is used over 50 times in the NT and (once again if memory serves me correctly) only in Rev10:6 have the modern translators translated chronos as delay. There are several words in Greek for delay so if delay was meant then why not use a more appropriate word such as chronizo. If delay is truly the correct translation then why do all these earlier versions use time instead of delay?

Bishops Bible; Rev 10:6 And sware by hym that lyueth for euermore, which created heauen and the thynges that therin are, & the earth and the thinges that therin are, and the sea, and the thynges which therin are, that there shoulde be no longer tyme.

Geneva Bible; Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liueth for euermore, which created heauen, and the thinges that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the thinges that therein are, that time should be no more.

KJV; Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Literal translation of the Holy Bible; Rev 10:6 and swore by Him living to the ages of the ages, "who created the heaven" and the things in it, "and the earth" and the things in it, "and the sea and the things in it," that time shall no longer be;

MKJV; Rev 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time.

Revised Version; Rev 10:6 and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be time no longer:

1833 Webster; Rev 10:6 And swore by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that are in it, and the earth, and the things that are in it, and the sea, and the things which are in it, that there should be time no longer:

 

[GraceBwithU]

I always read the posts. I like fiction! : -))

much is repeated with different details...

Please, by all means, point out something repeated.

There is an axiom about Revelation:

Any theory that attempts to rearrange the God given chronology of Revelation is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.

I know that some people think John back peddles, goes over the same things again and again, but it is simply not true. John wrote in the same order that the visions were given to Him. Therefore, the chronology is God given. If someone thinks these events are not in proper order, by time, they are simply mistaken. John's chronolgy is easy to follow up to chapter 11. Then it takes a bit more research.

Another Axiom:
No trumpet can be sounded until all seven of the seals are broken. No vial can be poured out, until all seven of the trumpets are sounded.

If you think there are things out of order, please, by all means, let's discuss them.

The battle of Armageddon will take place when Jesus descends on the white horse. This will occur after the 70th week is finished.

Coop

Sorry you just plain have no clue about how revelation is written. And I don't have time to teach you...but I will give you some links later, so you can understand. it's not about rearranging, it's about undrstanding the true order. and what is being talked about in each chapter. I'm not saying it is all scrambled. I'm just saying that some visions or out of order and or rmentioned more than once. For instance the great multitude coming out of the great tribul;ation is mentioned in Chapter 7, but it hasn't mentioned the seventh seal to be opened yet. And there is more, but the 19th Chapter is pretty much in order and it all happens very fast because it is time for Him to gather His bride.

 

[n2thelight]

coop

You twist scripture in answering many questions,but you still have not answered this one

Acts 3:21 says that Jesus must remain in heaven until it is time for Him to restore everything. Which I see happening at the end of the Daniel’s Seventy Weeks. So, how does He get out of heaven before the tribulation period to Rapture the Church?â€Â

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

Christ must remain in heaven until the times of restitution of all things. The "restitution of all things" is "Apokatastasis" in the Greek, and means the re-establishment of all things from a state of ruin. All the prophets have talked of this time of the Millennium since this world age begin.

It is written that on the first day of the Millennium age, at Christ's return, every knee shall bow to Christ. Romans 14:11; "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." Jesus is quoting here from Isaiah 45:22, 23; "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." [22] "I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

"I have read several verses in Scripture where Christ in the Olivet Discourse is talking about the great distress (tribulation) of those days. Immediately after that, He says, the Son of Man will come in the clouds after the darkening of the sun, moon and stars which is a sign before the Day of the Lord. Then He says you will see the Son of Man in the clouds and He will send His angles with a trumpet call and gather His elect. So, here you have the tribulation period and Christ coming after the tribulation period. Says the same thing in Luke. And Paul says the same thing in 2 Thessalonians 2 as he talks about letting no one deceive you in any way for that Day, your gathering the coming of the Lord will not occur until two things happen. The rebellion and the man of lawlessness being revealed, that after the tribulation. Here’s my question. Is there any Scripture or verses or passages in Scripture that place the return of Christ before either the appearing of the Antichrist, the tribulation period or the Great Tribulation? Any Scripture, nobody has been able to show me any, so far."

 

[n2thelight]

Vic

However way you wish to explain it,there can only be one last trump,and unless you can show me an eight,the seventh is the last.

 

[turnorburn]

I always read the posts. I like fiction! : -))

much is repeated with different details...

Please, by all means, point out something repeated.

There is an axiom about Revelation:

Any theory that attempts to rearrange the God given chronology of Revelation is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.

I know that some people think John back peddles, goes over the same things again and again, but it is simply not true. John wrote in the same order that the visions were given to Him. Therefore, the chronology is God given. If someone thinks these events are not in proper order, by time, they are simply mistaken. John's chronolgy is easy to follow up to chapter 11. Then it takes a bit more research.

Another Axiom:
No trumpet can be sounded until all seven of the seals are broken. No vial can be poured out, until all seven of the trumpets are sounded.

If you think there are things out of order, please, by all means, let's discuss them.

The battle of Armageddon will take place when Jesus descends on the white horse. This will occur after the 70th week is finished.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The Lord certainly has promised that He would return for us at the last trumpet and as Scripture proves the last trumpet comes after the tribulation not before.

That all depends on which "last trump" God had in mind. You assume that the 7th trumpet is what God had in mind. Yet the term "last trump" could just as well have other meanings. Just as you assume that God's use of "elect" in Matthew 24 means the church. I disagree with these assumptions. Vic had an excellent post showing what God had in mind by the "last trump."

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice the order we are given, the trib comes before the elect are gathered. Let's take a look at a few more things that tell us the trib comes before we are taken to be with the Lord.

Again, you are making an assumption that the gathering of the "elect" is in reference to the rapture. I don't think this is what God had in mind here. There are verses in the old testament that tell us that God will gather Israel and do it in "a day."


1

Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

You can try all you want to make the "last trump" the seventh trumpet of Revelation - but that will not make it so. Where is the rapture in these verses about the 7th trumpet? Sorry, it is not there. To find the rapture in Revelation, you must look before the 70th week. It is the great crowd, too large to number. They are seen in heaven, just before the day of the Lord starts.

1. 1Co15:52 states that the Church is taken to be with the Lord at the Last Trumpet, and not before.

Go back once more, and read Vic's post on the "last trumpet." Go back once more, and read about the 7th trumpet: there in NO rapture there.

2. Our trumpet is the LAST trumpet. As a result, it would have to include the seven trumpets in Revelation, or it would not be the Last Trumpet.

That is your theory. I just don't agree. Go back and read Vic's post yet again, slowly this time. Read it as if it just might be true.

3. Rev 10:6 states that at the 7th trumpet, there is "no more time," KJV.

how interesting that in the very next verse, God mentions "days." Then in the next chapter, He mentions 42 months! then 1260 days! It should be obvious that no matter how the KJV translators translated this, "time no longer" is NOT what was meant by the author.

NIV
"There will be no more delay!
NASB
"there will be delay no longer"
Amp
"no more time should intervene and there should be no more waiting or delay"
ESV
"there would be no more delay"
NKJV
"there should be delay no longer"
NCV
"There will be no more waiting"
ASV
"there shall be delay no longer"
Darby
"there should be no longer delay"
HCSB
"There will no longer be an interval of time"

4. Rev 10:7, states that at the 7th trumpet, "the mystery of God is finished."

What, in your mind, is this mystery?

5. Rev 11: 15, states that at the 7th trumpet (which is the last), God reigns "for ever and ever."

It also says "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord..." It is at the moment of the 7th trumpet that Adam's lease runs out, and Jesus becomes the "God of this world" once again. Remember, Satan has this position since the days of Adam. But Jesus does NOT at this time take possession. This 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint of the 70th week, and the time that "great tribulation" will be on the earth. God will give Satan total authority over this planet for the next 42 months after this trumpet is blown. Jesus comes to take possession soon after the time of great tribulation is over. Read it in Matthew 24.

6. 2Th 1:7-10 says that the wicked have their final judgment on the same day that the Lord comes for the saints.

Would this be a 24 hour day? Or is it in reference to the "day of the Lord," an extended period of time, at the very least, 7 years in length?

All the above verses show that the. pretrib view is not a scripturally viable option. If we are taken to be with the Lord at the Last Trumpet, and there is no more time at the last Trumpet, then there isn't time for a 7 year trib after Jesus returns for the saints. If there is no more time, then when the last trumpet blows, we will instantly be in the eternal kingdom of God.
This is certainly a theory, based on many assumptions, but one that I simply do not believe. You are right: there is only 3 1/2 years after the 7th trumpet is sounded, before Jesus comes on the white horse - so no time for the 7 years. That is why the 7 years starts with the 7th seal. So 3 1/2 years from the 7th seal to the 7th trumpet, then 3 1/2 years from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial. And then, after the cosmic signs in the sun and moon, Jesus returns on the white horse, as shown by John.

Some theologians declare that the Last Trumpet of 1Co15:52 does not include the trumpets of Revelation. Not only is there no Scripture for that theory, but it goes directly against 1Co15:52 itself. If there were any more trumpets after the Last Trumpet of 1Co15:52, then the Last Trumpet of 1Co15:52 couldn't be the Last Trumpet, could it?

This is certainly the way some see it, but this theory does not fit the rest of end time scriptures. The truth has to fit with every scripture. For example, you have painted yourself right into a corner, so to speak, and now cannot possibly populate the millennial kingdom with flesh and blood people that can have kids. Its pretty simple, really: if the rapture came just before the Kingdom, all righteous people would be changed, and get their resurrection bodies. Sorry, but no kids! Next, we have no appointment with God's wrath. His wrath starts at the 7th seal, with the start of the 70th week. We will be gone by then. Plain and simple. God is not a man, that He should lie. No appointment means that we will not have to attend.

As for wrath yes it is reserved for the unsaved, but God's wrath and tribulation are different things. Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. As this verse clearly shows John was already in tribulation on the island of Ptamos, so we can see that Christians can suffer tribulation.

If you really understood John's chronology, you would know that God's wrath includes the entire 70th week. When Satan is pouring out his wrath through the beast, and beheading everyone that refuses the mark, God will be pouring out HIS wrath in the vials. If you really understood John's chronology, you would know that these two things are concurrent. In fact, God uses the vials and associated plagues to shorten the time of intense persecution.

Now some will say in my Bible it says "delay no more" not "time no more" so let's take a look and see if time or delay is a better translation.
Rev 10:6 And2532 swore3660 by1722 him that liveth2198 forever and ever,1519, 165, 165 who3739 created2936 heaven,3772 and2532 the things3588 that therein1722, 846 are, and2532 the3588 earth,1093 and2532 the things3588 that therein1722, 846
are, and2532 the3588 sea,2281 and2532 the things3588 which are therein,1722, 846 that3754 there should be2071 time5550 no3756 longer:2089

From Strong's G5550 chronos khron'-os Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.

JMHO but the newer translations that use delay or in error. If memory serves me correctly (it’s been years since I actually counted so I don’t remember the exact number,) the word chronos is used over 50 times in the NT and (once again if memory serves me correctly) only in Rev10:6 have the modern translators translated chronos as delay. There are several words in Greek for delay so if delay was meant then why not use a more appropriate word such as chronizo. If delay is truly the correct translation then why do all these earlier versions use time instead of delay?

Bishops Bible; Rev 10:6 And sware by hym that lyueth for euermore, which created heauen and the thynges that therin are, & the earth and the thinges that therin are, and the sea, and the thynges which therin are, that there shoulde be no longer tyme.

Geneva Bible; Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liueth for euermore, which created heauen, and the thinges that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the thinges that therein are, that time should be no more.

KJV; Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Literal translation of the Holy Bible; Rev 10:6 and swore by Him living to the ages of the ages, "who created the heaven" and the things in it, "and the earth" and the things in it, "and the sea and the things in it," that time shall no longer be;

MKJV; Rev 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no longer be time.

Revised Version; Rev 10:6 and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be time no longer:

1833 Webster; Rev 10:6 And swore by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that are in it, and the earth, and the things that are in it, and the sea, and the things which are in it, that there should be time no longer:

If people would just read! As I pointed out above, God used a time word in the very next verse! Therefore, it is impossible that this verse means that God ends time. Read it for yourself: "days," "forty and two months," "a thousand two hundred and threescore days," and there are more. You tell me: if God had meant that time was to end, was HE confused? Did He forget what He has said in the very next verse? Go ahead and ask yourself: if a day "time?" Is a month "time?" Is time "time?" Is a year "time?"

Coop