The rapture of the Church

[LionandLambMinistry]

It doesn't matter at all whether you did respond to me in that way bacause I am sincere in my answer and I do not run in cirlce nor beat around the bush.

The Sauducees and Pharisees were fond of setting traps, are you one among them? But is totally out of my mind and I just wanted to know to whom or by whom did you learn those things, no less no more than that. I do not understand what you mean by your words, "my words have escaped you somehow", what so special about your words? What is the trap about your words?

What I wanted you guys to know is that the Lord God Jesus Christ deny that the teaching about rapture of the church is not true and so are men's interpretation of the verses they attrubute to this thing. That is what my post has to do with the rapture of the church.

Are you ACTUALLY saying that Christ denys the "rapture'?!?!?! Look let's get one thing REALLy straight about this. The Church BEGAN on Pentecost. The church is a brand new thing, a Mystery hidden in God from the beginning. Paul is the apostle most concerned with Church teaching, teaching what he recieved FROM THE LORD!

Once the bride is removed, and we meet the Lord in the air, all things will then revert back to the "Old Testament" ways.

 

[scorpia]

Are you ACTUALLY saying that Christ denys the "rapture'?!?!?!

Yes indeed.

Look let's get one thing REALLy straight about this. The Church BEGAN on Pentecost.

What does the word "church" mean? Isn't it that the simple meaning of a church is a group of people who believe in God or who follow God? Why do you say then that the Church just began on the day of the Pentecost? Were there no one from among the people of the Old TEstament who did not believe in God? What about the Church in the wilderness led by God himself through Moses? Do you not consider them a the Church of God in that time?

The church is a brand new thing, a Mystery hidden in God from the beginning.

Why would a Church be a Mystery hidden in God from the beginning when God himself is always the Leader or Head of the Church at any point in time? The people themselves inside the Church know who is the Lord God because the Lord God is the One leading and teaching them hence the Church is not a Mystery to them.

Paul is the apostle most concerned with Church teaching, teaching what he recieved FROM THE LORD!

See, that even from the bible, the teaching really emanates from the Lord God and it is still the same in our time today that we must receive the teacching from the Lord and not only from any discovered or unearthed writings or scriptures.

Once the bride is removed, and we meet the Lord in the air, all things will then revert back to the "Old Testament" ways.

How did you come up with this conclusion? If you really believe God is real and alive, you should have learned this one directly from the Lord God. If not, then it is just the same as the figment of someone's immagination, isn't it?

 

[LionandLambMinistry]

Scorpia,

Your english...I can't understand what in the world you are saying...

 

[scorpia]

Scorpia,

Your english...I can't understand what in the world you are saying...

sorry, Tagalog is our language and I am not keen in using english. however, I edited and revised my post above, see if you can understand them.

 

[BenJasher]

Scorpia,
I was unaware that you were Pinoi. I will quit poking sticks at you by calling you Buttercup.

 

[BenJasher]

Once the bride is removed, and we meet the Lord in the air, all things will then revert back to the "Old Testament" ways.

I am sorry if I come across as rude. It seems as though I have been called upon to be that way lately. I don't like being that way. Well... yeah I do too. But sometimes I wish there was a way to say what I want without coming across that way. This is one of those times.

Your whole post that I quoted a small part of is almost stereotypical of the unfounded, unscriptural confusion that is rampant, even pandemic, in the teachings (plural) of the Rapture.

There is not the slightest shred of scriptural evidence to back up that statement. It cannot be supported with scripture. Why even say things like that? Anyone that knows the difference between the Old and the New Testament can see that this statement's origin is someone's fantasy.

The Bride is an appellation used only of one group of people. That people are the Children of Israel. There is no mention of her being taken anywhere.

Meeting the Lord in the air is a New Testament era figure of speech. People who try to make a literal occurrence out of that terminology are barking up the wrong tree.

And NEVER is there a prophecy, prediction, directive, or even an admonition for anyone to "revert back" to anything that happened before. "Reverting back" is tantamount to backsliding. But the scripture does say that our backslidings will heal us.

The order of things in the Lord is "from glory unto glory," it is onward, upward and forward, never backward. Yesterday's manna is wormy, incapable of being eaten. The cloud has moved form yesterday's camp. We need to move on. Those who wish to go back to Grandma's old timey religion are no better off than those who wanted to return to Egypt once they had crossed the Red Sea. Onward we must go, never backwards.

So very very much of what is spoken, taught, taken to be truth, and understood to be scriptural when the Rapture is discussed is nothing more than pure fantasy and utter nonsense. And it makes no difference if you happen to be pre-, mid- or post-trib.

But to God be the Glory. He has concluded us all in unbelief, that He may have mercy on us all. And have mercy, He will.

The reason people believe nonsense like this is because of unbelief. They refuse to believe what the scriptures actually do say, so they have invented a fantasy to comfort themselves with. It's actually a nice fantasy, but reality is no nightmare for those who believe.

Catching a glimpse of the truth will set you free from man's fantasy they call the Rapture.

 

[scorpia]

Scorpia,
I was unaware that you were Pinoi. I will quit poking sticks at you by calling you Buttercup.

Thank you.

 

[MrVersatile48]

I just have time to say that Jesus said His return will be 'as in the days of Noah & of Lot'

Both times, the believers were removed to safety before judgement - as all who love Jesus will be @ the Rapture

Must go!

Ian

 

[Jon-Marc]

I just have time to say that Jesus said His return will be 'as in the days of Noah & of Lot'

Both times, the believers were removed to safety before judgement - as all who love Jesus will be @ the Rapture

Must go!

Ian

Exactly! All believers will be caught up as it says in 1 Thess. 4:16,17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Praise His name!

That is the "Rapture' or whatever anyone wants to call it. He does not set foot on the earth at that time. All those left behind will then enter a 7 year Great Tribulation told about in Revelation. Many of the lost will come to Christ during that 7 years. After the Tribulation Jesus Christ will return to the earth and set up His 1,000 year reign on earth. He will this time remove all unbelievers and cast them into hell, and the believers will enjoy the 1,000 year reign.

 

[BenJasher]

MrVersatile48, Jon-Marc: Take your "Rapture Glasses" off. You will be amazed at all the color and detail you have been missing all this time.

Jon-Marc, the language in that scripture in 1 Thess, speaking of the parousia, is entirely an early Church figure of speech. It has nothing to do with leaving your clothing in a pile on the floor as you go streaking through space with no clothes on. It has everything to do with the Manifestation of the Sons of God, the huiothesia, of our becoming like Him because we see Him as He is. But there is no reference in reality of our being taken out of this plane of existence. We will still continue to exist on this planet.

I just have time to say that Jesus said His return will be 'as in the days of Noah & of Lot'

Both times, the believers were removed to safety before judgement - as all who love Jesus will be @ the Rapture

Must go!

Ian

All that He meant by that, if you think about it without the "Rapture Glasses" covering your eyes is that His coming would be sudden, and with catastrophic consequences for those not ready to meet Him. It has nothing to do with any escape theology. There is no escape. We will face what is to come.

I keep talking about precedence and support in reference to the Rapture. In all of these stories, of Enoch, Elijah, Noah, Lot, Daniel, the three Hebrew Children, and all the rest, there is neither precedence nor support for any "snatching away". But these same stories clearly give both precedence and support to the idea of us having to go through the tough times, not escape from them, of His Divine protection and providence for us in those perilous times.

The greatest promises in the scriptures are given to the Overcomers. The Overcomers are born and bred in the Tribulation Period. They were born for that time. God would be robbing them of their chance to qualify to receive those promises if He snatched them away from the very thing that brought out the best in them. And who is he that overcometh, except him that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God.

I never even noticed the presence of the Overcomers in the scriptures until I saw there was no Rapture. I never took the time to see the meaning of the Manifestation of the Sons of God, til I no longer had a Rapture blocking my vision. The cosmological significance of the Marriage Supper of The Lamb became much more important than it ever had been before when I realized there was no Rapture. Heck, when I quit believing in a Rapture, I was finally able to understand what the Tribulation Period was all about.

There is much more that suddenly became very clear to me as well, but I won't go into them now. Noone is reading half of this stuff anyway. When it starts getting long, people quit reading.

 

[lecoop]

pre trib rapture,
post trib rapture
Pre Wrath Rapture..

be honest, all of them are the same thing.. If you extremely think about it you will come to find out all of them are the exact same thing..

I disagree. These are all issues of timing. Pretrib, what John teaches in Revelation, is a rapture before the 70th week of Daniel starts. Posttrib, the goofiest of all 'trib doctrines, states that the rapture or catching up into the clouds is only to return back to earth, and will happen after the 70th week of Daniel has finished.

Pretrib is, in fact, pre wrath, as both are before the wrath of God. If the prewrathers really knew when the 70th week starts, then they also would be pre-trib.

However, once the timing of the 70th week is understood, the beginning with the 7th seal, the midpoint with the 7th trumpet, and the ending with the 7th vial, then we also understand that John shows us a pre70th week rapture in chapter 7, as the great crowd that no man could number. The great crowd is the church, having just arrived in heaven.

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev 11:15 ¶ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[lecoop]

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Rev 11:15 ¶ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Gabbylittleangel, if you are trying to show that the trumpet of the seventh angel, is in ANY WAY related to Paul's "last trump," you are simply mistaken. Only a beginner in Revelation exegesis would make such a comparison. These two trumpets are related ONLY in that they are written in the same book: i.e., the bible. Oh, I guess you could say that each one is a last trumpet in a series.

When is Paul's "last trump" sounded? It will undoubtedly be the last trump of the feast of trumpets. In Revelation, it will be sounded in Rev. 6, somewhere about verse 12. John does not hear it, and does not write about it. How do I know that? Because John sees the church in heaven, in chapter 7. How did they get there? By way of rapture. Plain and simple.

Coop

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

When is Paul's "last trump" sounded? It will undoubtedly be the last trump of the feast of trumpets. In Revelation, it will be sounded in Rev. 6, somewhere about verse 12.

Check your references again Coop!

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound...

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded...

How do you get the seventh trumped in to Rev 6:12?

He is still opening the seals there. The sixth seal to be specific. The first trumpet does not sound until Rev 8.

Coop, are you holding your Bible right side up?

 

[lecoop]

Check your references again Coop!

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound...

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded...

How do you get the seventh trumped in to Rev 6:12?

He is still opening the seals there. The sixth seal to be specific. The first trumpet does not sound until Rev 8.

Coop, are you holding your Bible right side up?

Gabby, did you read what I wrote? Perhaps you read it upside down! : -))
Or perhaps you read it with preconceived glasses on! let me refresh your mind:

When is Paul's "last trump" sounded? It will undoubtedly be the last trump of the feast of trumpets. In Revelation, it will be sounded in Rev. 6, somewhere about verse 12.

You see, I was not speaking of any of the 7 trumpets of Revelation. As I said, they are not in any way related to the trumpet at the rapture.

Why will this trump be sounded here? Because this is where the rapture will take place. Why the rapture here? Because John saw the church in heaven just after this. You can read about it in chapter 7: the great crowd that no one can number.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

Hi everyone,

Sorry, but I haven't been able to be around much lately. I just would like to address three things.

Ben is correct in my opinion; the Bride is Israel not the church. The Church is the Body.

Copp is correct concerning the Last Trump; it is not one of the angelic trumps of Revelation. See this for clarification.

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

and

http://members.aol.com/zimlechem/trump.html

One must understand the relationship between the Jewish feasts and the End Times.

Lastly, Ben, be nice to the posters. 8-)

 

[BenJasher]

Lastly, Ben, be nice to the posters.

Sorry. : I'll do better. I have been trying. Hopefully someone has noticed that.

 

[Jay T]

In describing the last days Jesus likened the period to that of the days of Noah ( Matt. 24:37-39),

Yes, this prophecy reveals that God's last day prophet will be rejected, concerning God's final warning, just before Jesus Christ comes again, just as Noah was......
24:37 "But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".

Also, I want to point out that in Noah's flood, those who were lost were destroyed at the time of the flood....just as those who reject Christ's 2nd coming will be destroyed when Jesus shows up again !

Which by the way, eliminates any 7 year tribulation period...BECAUSE....when Jesus takes HIS people to heaven, the rest of the people left on earth, are left DEAD !

AND...Revelation 20:4-6 points out that fact.

 

[dabowhunter]

Exactly! All believers will be caught up as it says in 1 Thess. 4:16,17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Praise His name!

That is the "Rapture' or whatever anyone wants to call it. He does not set foot on the earth at that time. All those left behind will then enter a 7 year Great Tribulation told about in Revelation. Many of the lost will come to Christ during that 7 years. After the Tribulation Jesus Christ will return to the earth and set up His 1,000 year reign on earth. He will this time remove all unbelievers and cast them into hell, and the believers will enjoy the 1,000 year reign.

Rev. 20 vs.4-5 says..............."And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of "God, and which had not worshipped the beast , neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Well if this is the first resurrection can anyone tell me if there can be one that precedes it? If in fact the dead arise first as the rapture folks must agree than it is impossible for the rapture of the living to happen before the events described here in rev. 20 where saints obviously went thru the trib. Could it be that pretribers are just wishful thinkers that may be quite confused when they find themselves in the middle of the trib.?

 

[scorpia]

Well if this is the first resurrection can anyone tell me if there can be one that precedes it?

If we will only ask God today, God is telling that in reality and in actual life, there will only be one general resurrection of the dead for them to be mixed with all the living and then comes their final consumation with fire and boiling water. And there is no rapture at all, but all will experience this great tribulation which started when the twin towers in New York crushed and brought down to its foundation in 9/11/01. Great tribulation is an "isle by isle" or "part by part" tragedies that are meant to harm many pople. Tribulation is just a family suffering/tragedy.