The rapture of the Church

[Zero Link]

If we will only ask God today, God is telling that in reality and in actual life, there will only be one general resurrection of the dead for them to be mixed with all the living and then comes their final consumation with fire and boiling water. And there is no rapture at all, but all will experience this great tribulation which started when the twin towers in New York crushed and brought down to its foundation in 9/11/01. Great tribulation is an "isle by isle" or "part by part" tragedies that are meant to harm many pople. Tribulation is just a family suffering/tragedy.

You are also forget the role the anti-christ plays in the great tribulation. Or are you saying the great tribulation won't include the anti christ. :-?

 

[dancing queen]

Rev. 20 vs.4-5

Well if this is the first resurrection can anyone tell me if there can be one that precedes it? If in fact the dead arise first as the rapture folks must agree than it is impossible for the rapture of the living to happen before the events described here in rev. 20 where saints obviously went thru the trib. Could it be that pretribers are just wishful thinkers that may be quite confused when they find themselves in the middle of the trib.?

Is there a difference between those asleep in Christ and those who died before Christ came that affects the rapture stuff and this later resurrection, i.e. could those asleep in Christ go up with the rapture and those pre Christ dont get raised until later i.e. Rev 20?

 

[Jay T]

Rev. 20 vs.4-5 says..............."And I saw thrones and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of "God, and which had not worshipped the beast , neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

Well if this is the first resurrection can anyone tell me if there can be one that precedes it? If in fact the dead arise first as the rapture folks must agree than it is impossible for the rapture of the living to happen before the events described here in rev. 20 where saints obviously went thru the trib. Could it be that pretribers are just wishful thinkers that may be quite confused when they find themselves in the middle of the trib.?

Fear and lack of trust in God, motivates those 'Rapture' advocates.
They want an easy religion that requires no suffering of any kind, no denying themselves of convenience, to promote the cause of Christ's.
Yet, Jesus said that those who suffer persecution will inherit the Kingdom of God (Matthew 5:10-12).

 

[dancing queen]

Fear and lack of trust in God, motivates those 'Rapture' advocates.
They want an easy religion that requires no suffering of any kind, no denying themselves of convenience, to promote the cause of Christ's.
Yet, Jesus said that those who suffer persecution will inherit the Kingdom of God (Matthew 5:10-12).

Am slightly offended by this comment. I believe in a pre-trib rapture. I fully accept that as Christians we should expect persecution etc. Even though I believe in a pre-trib rapture I have often thought even in that context it would be good to stay behind so you could explain what was going on to everyone and try and show them Christ etc.

Please don't judge everyone who believes in a pre trib rapture this way. It's how we interpret scripture not the desire for an easy life which leads many of us to this conclusion.

 

[JohnR]

I have often thought even in that context it would be good to stay behind so you could explain what was going on to everyone and try and show them Christ etc.

I have thought of that also. But God made it clear to me that there is nothing we will be able to do to help them. God will be working in the world in a different way. In fact the reason the tribulation will begin is because it will be the end of our being able to make a difference or help in anyway. There is no reason for us to be here if we are not able to accomplish something good.

What you say is a wonderful way to live your life though. With no thought of yourself so much as a desire to do whatever you can to help others. Of course God is the only one that can make a difference. He can work though us to bring about a change for the better. It brings Him honor and glory that He is able to do a work in us and through us.

 

[Zero Link]

I have thought of that also. But God made it clear to me that there is nothing we will be able to do to help them. God will be working in the world in a different way. In fact the reason the tribulation will begin is because it will be the end of our being able to make a difference or help in anyway. There is no reason for us to be here if we are not able to accomplish something good.

What you say is a wonderful way to live your life though. With no thought of yourself so much as a desire to do whatever you can to help others. Of course God is the only one that can make a difference. He can work though us to bring about a change for the better. It brings Him honor and glory that He is able to do a work in us and through us.

To me its nearly impossible for a christian to have a "wonderful" life... Because we will encounter problems to be tested, but as for us going through the tribulation... I seriously doubt we are going to go through that.. But I am not really taking sides because i am unsure aswell.. I am still asking questions and doing research, and so far Im leaning more towards the pre trib or mid-trib rapture. Its most definente that the rapture will happen at the last trumpet but when is the last trumpet? Why did the war all of a sudden break out in heaven right before the second 3 1/2 years started(when the anti-christ reveals himself)... Is the holy spirit the restrainer that keeps the anti-christ from revealing himself?? I mean it best fits the description..If the holy spirit is the restrainer, then how is it that the church is still here? Are you guys saying the holy spirit will run from the church when the restrainer is taken away?? Its just sooo many questions that don't sound right if there is pre trib, mid trib rapture.. The post trib rapture doesn't sound right either... I mean, Jesus is gonna come back, then the bible mentions that we will be raptured(the one where we are gone in a twinkle of an eye.).. then Jesus is going to decend from heaven then we will meet him in the clouds.... But how is that when we were raptured just earlier?? Thats why the post trib doesn't sound right. Thats why when it comes to the pre trib.. or the mid trib... I believe in it.. Because if the ones that are ready is raptured.(compare this to the 10 virgins.. Remember 5 had oil in their lamps, 5 didn't... What im thinking, 5 had the holy spirit(oil) and when they were raptured, the holy spirit(the restrainer) was removed from the earth**the rapture**)...The 5 that didn't had to wait *and the door was shut*... So if they are raptured, and there are still PLENTY that will turn to God when they see that the bible is real and finally open their eyes, they will be looking forward to Jesus second coming. I am a bit rusty and just waking up so if this info is wrong take it easy on me. :

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Zero, glad you are still studying this area of Scripture.

To me its nearly impossible for a christian to have a "wonderful" life....

Read my signature. Jesus says we can.

Because we will encounter problems to be tested, but as for us going through the tribulation... I seriously doubt we are going to go through that.

Both Jews and Christians have been going through tribulation via persecution for thousands of years. Read 1 John 2 and 4. Antichrist and the spirit of antichrist has been here for... well, a long time.

Have you ever read Foxe's Book of Martyrs? It can be read right here:

http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

It walks you though the persecution of Christians from Jesus, Stephen and the Apostles, persecutions under Nero, Domitian, etc., Persian monarchs, Papal persecution, the Crusades, both "Christian" and Islamic, the Inquisition, Galileo!, persecution against the Reformers (Wickliffe, Martin Luther, Tyndale and others), persecutions by the Reformers, the Quakers in the newly-founded "America", John Bunyan,...

... we move along to more contemporary times. There is persecution against those in the mission fields. Christians in Islamic countries face severe persecution sometimes. Look at what has happened in countries like Indonesia and Sudan. We have our very own "form" of persecution going on in the USA.

We're talking about tens of millions of Christians... many estimate overall some 100-150 million. Here's the difference, IMO:

Jesus says this:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Do I believe it? Absolutely! We are no better than those that precede us. They didn't escape, why should we? I believe there will be a Great Tribulation of an indeterminate time greater than what was mentioned above; consisting of an antichrist persecution followed by God's Wrath aginst an unbelieving world. There is the key for me; wrath and an unbelieving world. We are not promised in any way exemption from Persecution but we ARE promised either protection or removal from Wrath.

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1 Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Its most definente that the rapture will happen at the last trumpet but when is the last trumpet?

I believe it to be around Rosh HaShanah, at some time in the future, perhaps the very near future. Who knows really? This is the best and simplist site I've seen explaining why:

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm


For some extra reading:

http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/daylord.html

 

[scorpia]

You are also forget the role the anti-christ plays in the great tribulation. Or are you saying the great tribulation won't include the anti christ. :-?

Not at all but the AntiChrist is soon to come and six years is the time given to him to temporary rule this whole world. He will be given some powers equal to God but not all that is God will be given to him. Computer is not in AntiChrist menu but solely his power/s temporarily given to him by God.

 

[scorpia]

Rev. 20 vs.4-5

Well if this is the first resurrection can anyone tell me if there can be one that precedes it? If in fact the dead arise first as the rapture folks must agree than it is impossible for the rapture of the living to happen before the events described here in rev. 20 where saints obviously went thru the trib. Could it be that pretribers are just wishful thinkers that may be quite confused when they find themselves in the middle of the trib.?

Is there a difference between those asleep in Christ and those who died before Christ came that affects the rapture stuff and this later resurrection, i.e. could those asleep in Christ go up with the rapture and those pre Christ dont get raised until later i.e. Rev 20?

How could that be when in reality there is no rapture at all and there is only one general resurrection?

 

[scorpia]

Fear and lack of trust in God, motivates those 'Rapture' advocates.
They want an easy religion that requires no suffering of any kind, no denying themselves of convenience, to promote the cause of Christ's.
Yet, Jesus said that those who suffer persecution will inherit the Kingdom of God (Matthew 5:10-12).

That's why we must have fear in God and trust only God by calling in and coming to Him, asking directly from Him the truth that we are seeking in our life and cling and cleave to the true, real, alive, and existing God of all ages - Jesus Christ, the Almighty God.

 

[Zero Link]

Not at all but the AntiChrist is soon to come and six years is the time given to him to temporary rule this whole world. He will be given some powers equal to God but not all that is God will be given to him. Computer is not in AntiChrist menu but solely his power/s temporarily given to him by God.

I don't get it.. The devil said he will send his man out to earth just like God did Jesus.. The devil made the anti-christ... So God is going to give him most of his power? He would then be too powerful since it is "most of God's power". You also said this would go on for 6 years, if this is so... If the great tribulation starts tomorrow, and I place a mark on my calender that day.. I could easily find out when Jesus Second Coming will be.. By simply counting the 6 years... starting from the mark i marked on the calender.. Anyone can do this if they can add.. But in the bible it says no man will know when Jesus second coming will be, not even the angels.. So are we smarter then those in heavens? I think not..

 

[bkhoward2001]

I don't get it.. The devil said he will send his man out to earth just like God did Jesus.. The devil made the anti-christ... So God is going to give him most of his power? He would then be too powerful since it is "most of God's power". You also said this would go on for 6 years, if this is so... If the great tribulation starts tomorrow, and I place a mark on my calender that day.. I could easily find out when Jesus Second Coming will be.. By simply counting the 6 years... starting from the mark i marked on the calender.. Anyone can do this if they can add.. But in the bible it says no man will know when Jesus second coming will be, not even the angels.. So are we smarter then those in heavens? I think not..

The AntiChrist reign will only be during the last 3 1/2 years after he stands upon the temple place and declares himself to be God... He is here now, but will not make himself known to the masses until that point.... Many whose eyes have been opened will know who he is prior to that. And unfortunately, I feel that point where he begins the last 3 1/2 year control is only about 4 years away... Yes you heard me right, I think we are about to enter the 7 year period sometime in 2007 by what is being fulfilled currently. You are right, no one know the 'exact' day or hour, but it clearly states that many eyes will be open to what is happenning and will see and understand the situation as it unfolds.

 

[Vic C.]

People, if you see your quotes didn't post they way you planned, please consider going back and fixing them. It would be easier for all of us to read the posts if the quotes were proper.

Thanks.
Vic

 

[lecoop]

I don't get it.. The devil said he will send his man out to earth just like God did Jesus.. The devil made the anti-christ... So God is going to give him most of his power? He would then be too powerful since it is "most of God's power". You also said this would go on for 6 years, if this is so... If the great tribulation starts tomorrow, and I place a mark on my calender that day.. I could easily find out when Jesus Second Coming will be.. By simply counting the 6 years... starting from the mark i marked on the calender.. Anyone can do this if they can add.. But in the bible it says no man will know when Jesus second coming will be, not even the angels.. So are we smarter then those in heavens? I think not..

What makes you think that Jesus will come back on the day that the 70th week ends? Is there such a verse? Why do you say 6 years, rather than seven? Daniel said seventy sevens, and one week; week being seven.

God does not give anyone His great power! God will allow this antichrist to have authority, and that only for 42 months. Why? To bring the Jews to a place where they have no choice but to once again call on God for salvation!

Coop

 

[scorpia]

I don't get it.. The devil said he will send his man out to earth just like God did Jesus.

Just wondering uhh, did the devil say this to you or were you just able to read this thing from the bible and tried applying your best comprehension on it? which is which?

[quote:81507] The devil made the anti-christ... So God is going to give him most of his power? He would then be too powerful since it is "most of God's power". You also said this would go on for 6 years, if this is so... If the great tribulation starts tomorrow, and I place a mark on my calender that day.. I could easily find out when Jesus Second Coming will be..

He would be like God when that time comes hence many will be led astray but how could you easily find out when Jesus Second Coming will be when I myself do not even know when will Jesus come again? I say nothing of that sort in my post, do I?

[quote:81507]By simply counting the 6 years... starting from the mark i marked on the calender.. Anyone can do this if they can add..

I don't get what you mean here bro., can you please simplify?

But in the bible it says no man will know when Jesus second coming will be, not even the angels..

I agree and I do say to you now that I do not know when will Jesus come again.

So are we smarter then those in heavens? I think not..

[/quote:81507][/quote:81507]
Yes we are not, am I saying otherwise?

 

[Jay T]

What makes you think that Jesus will come back on the day that the 70th week ends?

The 70th week ends some 2000 years ago....IF one read the Bible prophecy correctly !

NO WHERE in the BIble prophecy does it say that the 70th week is broken up.....it is one continuous line of time, from the 69th week going into the 70th week immmediately.

God does not give anyone His great power! God will allow this antichrist to have authority, and that only for 42 months. Why? To bring the Jews to a place where they have no choice but to once again call on God for salvation!

The Bible clearly shows that the Anti-Christ MUST appear ....BEFORE....Christ can come again (2 Thess 2:1-8)

 

[Jay T]

It is amazing how Jesus Christ warned people (MANY TIMES !!), on the point of HIS 2nd coming, to not be deceived (Matthew 24 & 2 Thess 2).

Yet, how very few, pay any attention to HIS warnings on that topic.

 

[lecoop]

Jay T said

The 70th week ends some 2000 years ago....IF one read the Bible prophecy correctly !

NO WHERE in the BIble prophecy does it say that the 70th week is broken up.....it is one continuous line of time, from the 69th week going into the 70th week immmediately.
Quote:
God does not give anyone His great power! God will allow this antichrist to have authority, and that only for 42 months. Why? To bring the Jews to a place where they have no choice but to once again call on God for salvation!


The Bible clearly shows that the Anti-Christ MUST appear ....BEFORE....Christ can come again (2 Thess 2:1-8)

NO WHERE in the BIble prophecy does it say that the 70th week is broken up.....it is one continuous line of time, from the 69th week going into the 70th week immmediately.
Quote:
God does not give anyone His great power! God will allow this antichrist to have authority, and that only for 42 months. Why? To bring the Jews to a place where they have no choice but to once again call on God for salvation!


The Bible clearly shows that the Anti-Christ MUST appear ....BEFORE....Christ can come again (2 Thess 2:1-8)

The 70th week ends some 2000 years ago....IF one read the Bible prophecy correctly !

So of course you can come up with hundreds of written historical documents of millions seeing Jesus as He came?

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

By the way, IF HE came, where is He?

Then again, why are there mountains still around, if the world's worst earthquake said they could not be found? Why is Hawaii still around?

Rev 16
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.


For the readers:

Anyone is free to spiritualize these verses if they like, but it is poor bible exegesis. There are real events that are still in the future.

The seventieth week is not broken up. When it starts, it continues to its end, 1260 days + 1260 days later. However, the 70th week is still future, while the 69th week ended eons ago. The proof is the book of Revelation: most of it is future.

The Bible clearly shows that the Anti-Christ MUST appear ....BEFORE....Christ can come again

Where do we see the antichrist in Revelation? Answer: the 13th chapter.
Where do we see Christ's return in Revelation? Answer: the 19th chapter.

Clearly, the antichrist is revealed before Jesus shows up on the white horse.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

LOL, y'all are making my head spin trying to figure out who said what! : Fix da' quotes!

People, if you see your quotes didn't post they way you planned, please consider going back and fixing them. It would be easier for all of us to read the posts if the quotes were proper.

Thanks.
Vic

 

[Vic C.]

Coop make s valid point here:

Rev 13
2And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

God had two wills; HIS sovereign will and HIS permissive will. We should not confuse the two. What we see here concerning the power given by the Dragon is permitted by God; not given by HIM.